India-China 2020 Border conflict

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johnq

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We have pulled millions out of poverty too. The question remains do we do it at the speed and scale at which China has done - that is borrow enormous amounts of money and build excess, wasteful capacity. Think about a scenario like this:
- build a city called new Varanasi that is ultra modern with zero people living there in the hopes that 10-20 years down the line this city will be populated. This will increase our GDP by tens of billions of dollars. Is this model ever going to work in India, in reality? We are struggling to get 1 high speed rail line from Mumbai to Delhi going, as everything from profitability to environmental issues are being looked at sharply.
While India does have issues like bureaucracy which have slowed its rise, from what I have learned about China over the past year, China isn't doing much better than India in terms of actually lifting its people out of poverty. The differences are in perception more than in reality, and the CCP government is a master of controlling outsider perception through the use of controlled state run media, made up statistics, and censorship; the outsiders aren't allowed to see the problem areas, and forget about seeing the truth about slave labor and organ harvesting using millions of Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongolians, Falun Gong followers and common Chinese people imprisoned unjustly. At least 600 million Chinese (and probably more due to CCP censorship and fudged numbers) are below the poverty line based on UN poverty standards, but CCP simply changed the definition of where the poverty line is, in order to change the numbers.
Outsiders unfamiliar with the dark underbelly of China rely on the propaganda put out by the state machinery and look at China's shiny cities, not realizing the massive gap in wealth which exists between the wealthy CCP members in the big cities (who make up 6 percent of the population) and the common Chinese people.
Meanwhile you have Indian media constantly magnifying every weakness of the Indian economy and system, so it seems much bleaker.
China is not so great in reality when you find out about its darker side, and India is not as bad as Indian media shows it out to be. It's just another case of the grass being greener on the other side, without realizing that the other side is doing horrible things to its people while hiding the reality; and CCP media just showing off the wealth of a small part of the population in big cities, while the Chinese masses are still living off rats, literally.
 

Suryavanshi

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I can assure you @mokoman that roads in AP were shit. My father used to travel from Tinsukia (Dinjan Cantt) to forward posts in AP by road (and on many stretches water) and it would take his team days to reach the destination. They would hook up with military convoys if and when possible but most of the time they travelled solo in a Sumo-based repair vehicle. When father used to return from his visits he will look like some other person. Weight loss, darkened skin, red eyes, physical/mental exhaustion, sleep deprivation, etc was his post-journey state. And this continued for once every 2 months, each time he would go for these visits it lasted around a month and then rest for a month.
Interesting thing is when he was posted in JnK later, he told me infra there is more heavenly than the hellish roads of AP. In many places a narrow pathway with no trees were the only roads.
Well the NE receives heavy rainfall and Pitch roads can't survive that for much time and most road get damaged due to landside.
There are natural, topographical reason as to why construction in NE is hard.
 

omaebakabaka

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We have pulled millions out of poverty too. The question remains do we do it at the speed and scale at which China has done - that is borrow enormous amounts of money and build excess, wasteful capacity. Think about a scenario like this:
- build a city called new Varanasi that is ultra modern with zero people living there in the hopes that 10-20 years down the line this city will be populated. This will increase our GDP by tens of billions of dollars. Is this model ever going to work in India, in reality? We are struggling to get 1 high speed rail line from Mumbai to Delhi going, as everything from profitability to environmental issues are being looked at sharply.
Thing about debt is that for export powerhouse countries like Japan, China debt is mostly internal and can be managed relatively easy vs countries like India which are mostly net deficit export vs import when it comes to quantitative and qualitative. We need to increase exports in areas qualitatively while keeping traditional ones like Agri, Precious stones, refined petroleum, IT services and so on.....ghost cities you mention are real and yes they do spend on these to keep their machinery running but its a thing of past now that they have moved to consumption and high quality economy and that will bring its own challenges as they have to keep that up to keep economy going.
Environmental issues is a joke in India and an external attempt to keep us down via NGOs and what not....they can't even fix basic things like sand mining, quarrying and deforesting. That is why its important to grow in Indian way (Indian = Sanathan style) and our lifestyle nuisances need to be reviewed and infra need to be designed to support that style and sanathan by principle is self sustaining if followed as per its rules and traditions....life in sanathan tradition thrives in rural settings, there is no reason to preserve this wonderfully distributed concept vs megacities....in other words infra needs to be built to support distributed development with some level of hub spoke architecture.

Any off topic....move this to infra thread?
 

omaebakabaka

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While India does have issues like bureaucracy which have slowed its rise, from what I have learned about China over the past year, China isn't doing much better than India in terms of actually lifting its people out of poverty. The differences are in perception more than in reality, and the CCP government is a master of controlling outsider perception through the use of controlled state run media, made up statistics, and censorship; the outsiders aren't allowed to see the problem areas, and forget about seeing the truth about slave labor and organ harvesting using millions of Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongolians, Falun Gong followers and common Chinese people imprisoned unjustly. At least 600 million Chinese (and probably more due to CCP censorship and fudged numbers) are below the poverty line based on UN poverty standards, but CCP simply changed the definition of where the poverty line is, in order to change the numbers.
Some truth to it that narrative is tightly controlled and exaggerated but one can't deny traveling in China that and even remote areas like Qinghai and North west look standardized and reasonably developed with very few signs of utter despair and poverty. This is first hand experience, they do lack refined and clean feel vs western countries and mostly tasteless planning but generally not much poverty is felt.
 
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@RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

You are being watched by a member you are famous also Chinese if you are reading this the source of that comment was from naval news

Although the construction of the Indian and Chinese ships overlaps, in many respects the Indian carrier is a generation newer in design. Design of Vikrant started in 1999 while the Chinese ships are rooted in 1970s Soviet technology. Vikrant was launched in August 2013 and has been fitting out in Kochi since then.

The Chinese ships however are essentially Soviet designed Admiral Kuznetsov class ships. Liaoning in fact was laid down in 1985 and only sold to China, ostensibly for scrap, in 1998. She entered service in 2012. Shandong was built to the same overall design (with some modifications) and entered service in 2019.

The differences are most telling under the deck however. The Chinese ships use traditional steam turbines while Vikrant uses a more modern gas turbine arrangement



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The fear on the chinki side is palpable when they have extended my comment on just the carriers to the entire PLA Navy is behind Indian Navy. I will take this as the truth as there is nothing like truth spilling out inadvertently. This goes to show that assets like two dozen P8I anti submarine planes, MH60Rs, Predator drones , A&N triservice Command right at the mouths of Malacca Straits, indigenous advanced carrier capabilities equipped with top of the line Indian/Russian/western armaments, indigenous SSBN capability with K4 deployment, the new 6 SSNs, the ultra modern destroyers of Kolkata class, the state-of-the art Indian Ocean surveillance setup at Gurgaon with liaison officers posted there from friendly countries, dedicated naval satellites etc - everything is giving the panda navy a nightmare as they know they are a decade or two behind what IN fields today.
The CCPs over the top propaganda that democracies are messy - they cannot deliver is also falling flat on their face, as people are learning that China’s tech advancements are mostly on paper for now and they are simply not able to match western tech yet and produce reliable products. Given that western tech is freely available to India (and these days with no strings attached when it comes to deployment against China) as a responsible democratic nation and a strong member of MTCR, which china is not and never will be, the slit-eyed CCP savages are feeling down just like how they felt when not a single nation paid attention to the 100 years of slavery theme by the CCP.
Good to know I am getting popular among the pangolin eaters. Thanks 🙏 for your post.
 
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While India does have issues like bureaucracy which have slowed its rise, from what I have learned about China over the past year, China isn't doing much better than India in terms of actually lifting its people out of poverty. The differences are in perception more than in reality, and the CCP government is a master of controlling outsider perception through the use of controlled state run media, made up statistics, and censorship; the outsiders aren't allowed to see the problem areas, and forget about seeing the truth about slave labor and organ harvesting using millions of Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongolians, Falun Gong followers and common Chinese people imprisoned unjustly. At least 600 million Chinese (and probably more due to CCP censorship and fudged numbers) are below the poverty line based on UN poverty standards, but CCP simply changed the definition of where the poverty line is, in order to change the numbers.
Outsiders unfamiliar with the dark underbelly of China rely on the propaganda put out by the state machinery and look at China's shiny cities, not realizing the massive gap in wealth which exists between the wealthy CCP members in the big cities (who make up 6 percent of the population) and the common Chinese people.
Meanwhile you have Indian media constantly magnifying every weakness of the Indian economy and system, so it seems much bleaker.
China is not so great in reality when you find out about its darker side, and India is not as bad as Indian media shows it out to be. It's just another case of the grass being greener on the other side, without realizing that the other side is doing horrible things to its people while hiding the reality; and CCP media just showing off the wealth of a small part of the population in big cities, while the Chinese masses are still living off rats, literally.
Spot on. Yeah we can discuss about infra more in infra threads. the relevant thing for this thread is the fact that it is now established that China is facing debt defaults like any country that overborrows and that they don’t have unlimited moneys to spend on their military modernization as previously thought (which means it is going to take even longer to catch up to western defense tech), they are not as formidable an enemy that everyone thinks and glorifies. They have financial, manpower, supply chain constraints like everyone else. And they are struggling to get capital to further finance their infrastructure including military infrastructure.
They are the modern day Nazis - while they have some very good defense setup, a lot of stuff is full of propaganda. They are also mighty scared of India now - hence building up all those silos in the Gobi desert with their 1960s tech missiles - mainly because they probably did not think that India would get to a position where advanced western tech will be accessible to us.
As our private entrepreneurs led aerospace industry explodes and produces pathbreaking products just because of our better exposure to western defense supply chains, expect the CCP chimps to throw more poop at each other and increase the rhetoric “India is a failed democracy that is a western slave.”, while we show that we are a trusted partner of the advanced tech nations in producing latest Gen armaments.
‘This decade is going to be very interesting. The virus spreaders frothing at the mouth can only be exceeded by the toxic froth in the Yangtze.
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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@RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

You are being watched by a member you are famous also Chinese if you are reading this the source of that comment was from naval news

Although the construction of the Indian and Chinese ships overlaps, in many respects the Indian carrier is a generation newer in design. Design of Vikrant started in 1999 while the Chinese ships are rooted in 1970s Soviet technology. Vikrant was launched in August 2013 and has been fitting out in Kochi since then.

The Chinese ships however are essentially Soviet designed Admiral Kuznetsov class ships. Liaoning in fact was laid down in 1985 and only sold to China, ostensibly for scrap, in 1998. She entered service in 2012. Shandong was built to the same overall design (with some modifications) and entered service in 2019.

The differences are most telling under the deck however. The Chinese ships use traditional steam turbines while Vikrant uses a more modern gas turbine arrangement



View attachment 97977
Which forum is this ?
 
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