India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Raaakisazih]

Iam anticipating major skirmishes in the months of April/May 2024.

Before that only buildup and preparations.

Right now there are many active Friction Points for major conflict/war in the World.

It will happen before 2024 and if we want to succeed then we need to get rid of this ahinsa bullshit become ruthless in killing chinese troops indiscriminately

 

[Knowitall]

Location:- Galwan
Time:- Last year June 15

Still remember that month like yesterday every day for two months we kept on waiting hoping against hope that something would happen that all those emergency purchases and deployments meant something.

Never thought that we would let them get away with it that easily.

 

[Jimih]

The US and Japan are reportedly carrying out secret drills for a possible conflict scenario with China over Taiwan

US-Japan 'Top Secret War Games' Create Unnecessary Tension in South & East China Seas, Scholars Say

The US and Japan are reportedly carrying out secret drills for a possible conflict scenario with China over Taiwan. What's behind the supposed exercises and how could they affect the status quo in the Indo-Pacific region?

sputniknews.com

 

[Raaakisazih]

Still remember that month like yesterday every day for two months we kept on waiting hoping against hope that something would happen that all those emergency purchases and deployments meant something.

Never thought that we would let them get away with it that easily.

It makes me sad i joined this forum recently before that i was watching this forum for knowledge and intelligence on various defence matters

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

What I dont get is why everyone wants India to beat China or be like China. Why is also there this assumption that we are globally projecting? We simply are not.

In the broad theme the only difference between China and India is China essentially followed an ASEAN model - that is take on massive amount of debts to build up GDP through construction projects that consume huge amounts of commodities and promote an exports led growth based on mass manufacturing using cheap labor.
The ASEAN model has failed before and it could fail again.
For some reason, people believe that the China's version of ASEAN model is a success, while it is actually not. Chinese banks reel for bad debts and NPAs much more than Indian banks do.

Here is a sample - just these 3 articles alone should tell you the scale of corruption and bad banking practices in China. It is much worse than in India. Believe it or not, we do better than China in all corruption rankings. Nirav Modi, Mehul Choksi are small fry compared to what the Chinese criminals pull off and many of them are in top membership of the CCP itself, active to this day.

China's $2.14tn of bonds coming due unnerves foreign investors

Country faces massive debt servicing costs for infrastructure by 2023

asia.nikkei.com

Embattled Huarong to sell multibillion-dollar assets

As rescue plan gets underway, disposals will see its assets shrink to about 1tn yuan

asia.nikkei.com

China graft busters shocked by corrupt Baoshang Bank regulators

Report claims government watchdogs took bribes and 'ate everything'

asia.nikkei.com

Here is how even their bullet train projects are getting canceled:

As debt mounts, Beijing halts two high-speed rail projects

Fate of $20bn in new lines depends on outcome of 'deep' review

asia.nikkei.com

The major difference between China and India is China has taken 5 times India's debt to bankroll its economy and so all the numbers look big. There is nothing magical about it. India can take debt 3 or 4 times the existing values and build everything at breakneck speed and we will "look" like China too with unnecessary expressways, high speed rail lines and bridges to nowhere, devastated environment etc.

Further, India's institutional financing mechanisms for infrastructure projects are already more sophisticated than China's

Here is an example:
China is planning to introduce REITs to finance infrastructure - obviously as the state-run bank monoliths are unable to do so, saddled with massive bad debts. India has been using REITs for several years now.

China seeks to lure investors into REITs to finance infrastructure

Government intends to build $770bn market to support infrastructure projects

asia.nikkei.com

People keep on saying India must be the next China. Do these guys even understand what they are asking for?
- do they want a massive debt based approach to solving poverty?
- do they want rampant crony capitalism and corruption to dominate our lives?
- do we want to devastate our lands with toxic waste and become food insecure like China has become, and become food import dependent?
- do we want to build massive, wasteful projects that are empty and have devastated environments all over?
- do we want to make our lands and waters insanely toxic?

If people thought that the Ganges is polluted, they have no idea what river pollution actually looks like. In the rivers near Shanghai and other places such as Hubei, people saw tens of dead pigs flowing down river and thousands of fishes dead from toxic spills floating like garbage.
Even today, Shanghai's water quality is terrible and very few water bodies are actually fit enough to supply clean drinking water. We do not have such issues.
For people advocating "we need to 'become' like China" mantra they have no idea what destruction their massive debt fueled growth has done to their people, who have had no say in how China should grow. They were treated as expendable peasants, and subjected to grave human rights violations in the name of development.
These idiotic tweets never say at what cost China increased its GDP and if such massive human rights violating GDP growth is suitable for countries at all.

I consider Chinese model an utter failure and not worth emulating mainly because of one reason - there is nothing original about it. It is just that everything is done on a big scale and quickly and cheaply. Nothing about their model shows it is sustainable, respecting human rights, innovative or even real poverty alleviating. They just play with statistics and numbers like rankings just to demonstrate that they have beaten the western world (forced Olympics athleticism not native to the Chinese traditional sports is a jarring example).

We do have to improve our scale and speed of alleviating poverty and building infrastructure but not at the super speeds and the massively corrupt ways the CCP does it, which has devastated their resources so much so that they have become food insecure; and created some international financial criminal enterprises the likes of which the world has never seen.

 

[Deadtrap]

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

What I dont get is why everyone wants India to beat China or be like China. Why is also there this assumption that we are globally projecting? We simply are not.

In the broad theme the only difference between China and India is China essentially followed an ASEAN model - that is take on massive amount of debts to build up GDP through construction projects that consume huge amounts of commodities and promote an exports led growth based on mass manufacturing using cheap labor.
The ASEAN model has failed before and it could fail again.
For some reason, people believe that the China's version of ASEAN model is a success, while it is actually not. Chinese banks reel for bad debts and NPAs much more than Indian banks do.

Here is a sample - just these 3 articles alone should tell you the scale of corruption and bad banking practices in China. It is much worse than in India. Believe it or not, we do better than China in all corruption rankings. Nirav Modi, Mehul Choksi are small fry compared to what the Chinese criminals pull off and many of them are in top membership of the CCP itself, active to this day.

China's $2.14tn of bonds coming due unnerves foreign investors

Country faces massive debt servicing costs for infrastructure by 2023

asia.nikkei.com

Embattled Huarong to sell multibillion-dollar assets

As rescue plan gets underway, disposals will see its assets shrink to about 1tn yuan

asia.nikkei.com

China graft busters shocked by corrupt Baoshang Bank regulators

Report claims government watchdogs took bribes and 'ate everything'

asia.nikkei.com

Here is how even their bullet train projects are getting canceled:

As debt mounts, Beijing halts two high-speed rail projects

Fate of $20bn in new lines depends on outcome of 'deep' review

asia.nikkei.com

The major difference between China and India is China has taken 5 times India's debt to bankroll its economy and so all the numbers look big. There is nothing magical about it. India can take debt 3 or 4 times the existing values and build everything at breakneck speed and we will "look" like China too with unnecessary expressways, high speed rail lines and bridges to nowhere, devastated environment etc.

Further, India's institutional financing mechanisms for infrastructure projects are already more sophisticated than China's

Here is an example:
China is planning to introduce REITs to finance infrastructure - obviously as the state-run bank monoliths are unable to do so, saddled with massive bad debts. India has been using REITs for several years now.

China seeks to lure investors into REITs to finance infrastructure

Government intends to build $770bn market to support infrastructure projects

asia.nikkei.com

People keep on saying India must be the next China. Do these guys even understand what they are asking for?
- do they want a massive debt based approach to solving poverty?
- do they want rampant crony capitalism and corruption to dominate our lives?
- do we want to devastate our lands with toxic waste and become food insecure like China has become, and become food import dependent?
- do we want to build massive, wasteful projects that are empty and have devastated environments all over?
- do we want to make our lands and waters insanely toxic?

If people thought that the Ganges is polluted, they have no idea what river pollution actually looks like. In the rivers near Shanghai and other places such as Hubei, people saw tens of dead pigs flowing down river and thousands of fishes dead from toxic spills floating like garbage.
Even today, Shanghai's water quality is terrible and very few water bodies are actually fit enough to supply clean drinking water. We do not have such issues.
For people advocating "we need to 'become' like China" mantra they have no idea what destruction their massive debt fueled growth has done to their people, who have had no say in how China should grow. They were treated as expendable peasants, and subjected to grave human rights violations in the name of development.
These idiotic tweets never say at what cost China increased its GDP and if such massive human rights violating GDP growth is suitable for countries at all.

I consider Chinese model an utter failure and not worth emulating mainly because of one reason - there is nothing original about it. It is just that everything is done on a big scale and quickly and cheaply. Nothing about their model shows it is sustainable, respecting human rights, innovative or even real poverty alleviating. They just play with statistics and numbers like rankings just to demonstrate that they have beaten the western world (forced Olympics athleticism not native to the Chinese traditional sports is a jarring example).

We do have to improve our scale and speed of alleviating poverty and building infrastructure but not at the super speeds and the massively corrupt ways the CCP does it, which has devastated their resources so much so that they have become food insecure; and created some international financial criminal enterprises the likes of which the world has never seen.

Despite all this they are a 15 trillion dollar and the world can't do shit about it. The economies of many countries depends on them.
We aren't trying to project globally? What were we trying to do in Afghanistan and in Iran with Chabahar, both of which have doubtful futures.
Lastly do you think there isn't corruption in the government, bureaucracy and other government institutions? Aren't there human rights violations in India, or for that matter any country? Or do you think in the world of bastards India should be the only noble one??

 

[omaebakabaka]

I consider Chinese model an utter failure and not worth emulating mainly because of one reason - there is nothing original about it. It is just that everything is done on a big scale and quickly and cheaply. Nothing about their model shows it is sustainable, respecting human rights, innovative or even real poverty alleviating. They just play with statistics and numbers like rankings just to demonstrate that they have beaten the western world (forced Olympics athleticism not native to the Chinese traditional sports is a jarring example).

We do have to improve our scale and speed of alleviating poverty and building infrastructure but not at the super speeds and the massively corrupt ways the CCP does it, which has devastated their resources so much so that they have become food insecure; and created some international financial criminal enterprises the likes of which the world has never seen.

It is not a failure by any means, pulling millions out of poverty in 3 decades and having high speed railway, good subways and highways and ports and what not is not failure by any measure. However western style development without ones own mix of traditions is boring and not very sustainable for massive populations that are multiples of any western country. Anyone that went to both China and Japan for any significant amount of time can notice the difference...China is mostly boring while Japan is interesting and India needs to be very Indian in development....any other emulation will result in unsustainable cities and infra. Debt is not bad if it does good work like lifting people out of poverty....western style debt post 2000s is useless as most of it goes into wars and useless social spending that adds nothing other than fake prosperity

 

[doreamon]

Meanwhile our own Dallas

The CPI and the CPI(M) on Thursday congratulated the Communist Party of China on its centenary, and said the way the country handled the coronavirus pandemic and put back the economy on a growth trajectory is a “lesson for the world”.

CPI(M) General Secretary Sitaram Yechury, in his letter to Chinese premier and general secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Xi Jinping, said that the history of the last century holds testimony to the manner in which China has evolved its policies, often identifying and correcting its mistakes.

Left parties congratulate Communist Party of China on its centenary, applaud its governance

Applauding China's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, Yechury said that the crisis came at a time when the global economy was already slowing down and moving towards recession.

www.financialexpress.com

These mofo still living in communist utopia and thinking china still is a communist country is hillarious ... If dillusion still had a name ... They ll never allow chinese model of success here in india though . ll comeout to protest in the name of env labour in every development project ...

 

[Raaakisazih]

These mofo still living in communist utopia and thinking china still is a communist country is hillarious ... If dillusion still had a name ... They ll never allow chinese model of success here in india though . ll comeout to protest in the name of env labour in every development project ...

Exactly and that's why they need to be eradicated from kerala too kerala has such a great geography and has so much potential these red bafoons are stopping kerala from growing

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Despite all this they are a 15 trillion dollar and the world can't do shit about it. The economies of many countries depends on them.
We aren't trying to project globally? What were we trying to do in Afghanistan and in Iran with Chabahar, both of which have doubtful futures.
Lastly do you think there isn't corruption in the government, bureaucracy and other government institutions? Aren't there human rights violations in India, or for that matter any country? Or do you think in the world of bastards India should be the only noble one??

This is where the arguments get a bit weak. Like I said there are all sorts of issues in India but the scale and gravity of those issues in India are much low compared to what is happening/has happened in China.
India's global projection pales in comparison to what the Chinese do. You only have to look at the amount of bribery they do with tinpot dictators in Africa, something which we may never do. Overall they are ok to do a number of shady, even outright criminal things right by their government itself and at a big scale at that to become the #1 GDP. Heck, they even used a consulate to steal IP from the US, something even the Soviets do not do. The amount of money laundering that the CCP officials do is enormous. While we blame our politicians for corruption, it is petty and pales in comparison to the sophisticated and big scale at which corruption and criminality happens in China. We are different. We are never ever going to get to such levels of criminality or sophisticated stealing of others' IP.
On debt, we simply wont put in place systems (like municipal credit rating - cities must be credit rated to access debt in the market) that enables us to borrow gigantic amounts of money to finance urban infrastructure. We try but it does not work - one reason why our city budgets are very low, as they are not able to borrow at competitive rates to finance urban infrastructure - which leads to our urban infrastructure taki ng ages to get to decent standards. I have said this before - Shanghai or Beijing's budget is north of $100 billion each. Delhi or Mumbai's budget is probably at most $10 billion. Potential exists to borrow 3 or 4 times to get to a $40-$50 billion budget for Mumbai or Delhi. But they are not able to do so. Private investment will be much slower and much less in amount that you cannot develop cities fast like China if you rely on private investments. So, yeah, overall our systems need drastic changes if we have to access competitive debt like China does.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

It is not a failure by any means, pulling millions out of poverty in 3 decades and having high speed railway, good subways and highways and ports and what not is not failure by any measure. However western style development without ones own mix of traditions is boring and not very sustainable for massive populations that are multiples of any western country. Anyone that went to both China and Japan for any significant amount of time can notice the difference...China is mostly boring while Japan is interesting and India needs to be very Indian in development....any other emulation will result in unsustainable cities and infra. Debt is not bad if it does good work like lifting people out of poverty....western style debt post 2000s is useless as most of it goes into wars and useless social spending that adds nothing other than fake prosperity

We have pulled millions out of poverty too. The question remains do we do it at the speed and scale at which China has done - that is borrow enormous amounts of money and build excess, wasteful capacity. Think about a scenario like this:
- build a city called new Varanasi that is ultra modern with zero people living there in the hopes that 10-20 years down the line this city will be populated. This will increase our GDP by tens of billions of dollars. Is this model ever going to work in India, in reality? We are struggling to get 1 high speed rail line from Mumbai to Delhi going, as everything from profitability to environmental issues are being looked at sharply.

 

[Suhaldev]

Posturing at LAC might result in small scale conflict but war isn't going to happen any time soon or in near future, Reson being

1. Chinas one child policy, they will inflict losses through cyber attack not through troops.

2. Origin of virus and anti China sentiment, don't want real and apprant reason to piss off people.

3. For India, economy is crippled second wave has exposed systematic failure of coordination

4. War for India will have deadly cost which will push back nation backward.

Best case for India, infuse money in infra (creates job + strategic inplicstions), fix structural issues in economy (right time but it seems govt have lost will to notify reforms) and then work on defence offense against China.

 

[Raaakisazih]

Posturing at LAC might result in small scale conflict but war isn't going to happen any time soon or in near future, Reson being

1. Chinas one child policy, they will inflict losses through cyber attack not through troops.

2. Origin of virus and anti China sentiment, don't want real and apprant reason to piss off people.

3. For India, economy is crippled second wave has exposed systematic failure of coordination

4. War for India will have deadly cost which will push back nation backward.

Best case for India, infuse money in infra (creates job + strategic inplicstions), fix structural issues in economy (right time but it seems govt have lost will to notify reforms) and then work on defence offense against China.

Till then we will keep losing land

 

[Suhaldev]

Till then we will keep losing land

Well, if we can't fix our infra we'll loose war too. So, key is to bloister our defences and launch an offence like kailash operation to gain back patrolling rights/land.

War isn't happening. Period.

 

[Raaakisazih]

Well, if we can't fix our infra we'll loose war too. So, key is to bloister our defences and launch an offence like kailash operation to gain back patrolling rights/land.

War isn't happening. Period.

So we will have to wait till we improve infrastructure on borders when do you think we can launch an attack

 

[Jimih]

Yes

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

@RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

You are being watched by a member you are famous also Chinese if you are reading this the source of that comment was from naval news

Although the construction of the Indian and Chinese ships overlaps, in many respects the Indian carrier is a generation newer in design. Design of Vikrant started in 1999 while the Chinese ships are rooted in 1970s Soviet technology. Vikrant was launched in August 2013 and has been fitting out in Kochi since then.

The Chinese ships however are essentially Soviet designed Admiral Kuznetsov class ships. Liaoning in fact was laid down in 1985 and only sold to China, ostensibly for scrap, in 1998. She entered service in 2012. Shandong was built to the same overall design (with some modifications) and entered service in 2019.

The differences are most telling under the deck however. The Chinese ships use traditional steam turbines while Vikrant uses a more modern gas turbine arrangement

Indian Navy's First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Vikrant Catching Up To China - Naval News

The Chinese Navy is rapidly expanding its aircraft carrier fleet, with two in service and at least one more under construction. And while still new to the game, their experience of operating carriers is growing all the time. Regional rival India has a much longer tradition of carrier aviation...

www.navalnews.com

 

[notaname]

 

[notaname]

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