Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[WARREN SS]

For how many years india will depend on other countries for our own security?

Until IAF get satisfied with quality of Indian products par with world counterpart

 

[Mikesingh]

For how many years india will depend on other countries for our own security?

No country in the world produces a 100% indigenous aircraft except the US where only the F-22 stealth fighter and B-2 Stealth bomber are 'indigenous' due to amalgamation of top secret technology by their black projects. Even Lockheed Martin's F-35 has 26 sub contractors spread all over Europe and America. It's more cost effective to outsource systems. Why can't we? What's the big deal? Is it about sentiments or operational requirements and economics?

 

[SELVAM]

Until IAF get satisfied with quality of Indian products par with world counterpart

IF quality is the main issue why they filling their inventory with Russian junks,

 

[WARREN SS]

IF quality is the main issue why they filling their inventory with Russian junks,

I don't know which junks are u talking about

IAF stalled the project including pak fa on quality issues

As now only top notch system are like mki which involves Western and indegenous avionics as well are aquired that to mostly produced in house

 

[WARREN SS]

IAF Only goal was to have indegenous system is DUE to low operational cost and low maintenance

LCA failed to meet ASQR in both departments

I don't say scrap them it is evolving project

But IAF Defense doctrine on two front cannot be dependent on LCA which as of now sub par

 

[dumdumdum]

"The sixth one is expected to fly in the next three days and the seventh in about 10 days.

No SP5 flight? No SP7 flight? Aren't such public utterances supposed to be made after one considers the most conservative/worst case scenario?

 

[Pulkit]

Until IAF get satisfied with quality of Indian products par with world counterpart

Do they have same standards when it come to foran maal? No. They just don't want Indian product. Imported Air Force

 

[Kshithij]

Endurance of 59 mins ? They put in like 50lts of fuel or what? IAF south block needs a good old spanking...

Yes, Tejas can fly in 1.6 Mach. In that speed, endurance will be low. It is the same case for everyone else. Even F16 has endurance of over an hour.

By 2021, all of the MIG squadrons except fulcrums will have to retired from the services. These retirements will leave a huge gap in the desired and operational squadrons.

And all knows that all political parties needs fundings for their expenses and BJP has a lot of Gujrati tycoons. Now, keep this thread politically clean and discuss about the topic.

Good Day

Please, stop your funding business. You are trying to say that destroying the country and helping the enemy kill its people is the only way to make funds for election? Funds can be made by bringing in private players or even illegal mining of Iron/Aluminum/coal. There is no need for funding by defence deals to foreign players and risking Indian security. If funding was everything, then India might as well sell itself to Saudi Arabia for billions of dollars a year. They are ready to pay.

Your operational readiness didn't happen overnight. It was rotting for decades. If nothing was done back then, do nothing now too. Don't play double games by selectively doing things. There was nothing that stopped India from making indigenous defence except political will. It was back then that you should have questioned. Either you don't question now or question every time. If you had rebelled against Indira, Nehru and eliminated anyone who had grabbed power by lies and deceit, things would have been better. You simply want to behave arbitrarily but not be questioned.

As I said, if we are not ready, we are not ready. Period. We will adjust with what we have. In 2021 if MiGs have to be retired, so be it. We will live with 275 Su30, 130 Tejas, 100 Rafales, 150 other planes like Mirage-2000, Jaguars etc. This totals to over 600 planes (33 squadrons). If this much is not enough, then it is anyways, full scale nuclear war with missiles, Navy and invasion. There is no need to raise false alarms.

 

[TPFscopes]

Silly to say the least, add A2A refueling, new gen weapons like SAAW, 250/500 kg guided HSLD, 1000kg Glide bombs, drop the weight and LCA Mk-1P is ideal for ops. endurance can easily be doubled.

These endurance figures for Gripen and F-16 can't be without A2A refueling.

Don't you think adding external fuel to LCA can add enough endurance to compete it with Gripen?

This article has very less substance to believe (means True) , rest other is totally baked with inefficient knowledge.

*They compared the endurance of LCA without drop tanks with the Gripen with drop tanks.
*They are presenting initial life certification of 20 years with the lifespan of Gripen/F-16. LCAs life can be easily doubled with serial refits which are also done for f-16/Gripen but not mentioned here.
*They are presenting the less number of sorties per day which was Official praised by IAF earlier.
*They are pointing out maintenance issues with LCA MK1 Which is still IOC which will exponentially improved in mk1A through modular design.

Note: I didn't use "they" for IAF..

 

[Kshithij]

IAF Only goal was to have indegenous system is DUE to low operational cost and low maintenance

LCA failed to meet ASQR in both departments

I don't say scrap them it is evolving project

But IAF Defense doctrine on two front cannot be dependent on LCA which as of now sub par

Please be specific with details, facts etc. Lets start here-
- What is the requirement in the long term for India?
- What is the need of air force for India?
- What is the minimum requirement of planes in the airforce to completely fulfil its mission? How did you come to this number?

 

[TPFscopes]

Please, stop your funding business.

=>

Now, keep this thread politically clean and discuss about the topic.

As I said, if we are not ready, we are not ready. Period. We will adjust with what we have. In 2021 if MiGs have to be retired, so be it. We will live with 275 Su30, 130 Tejas, 100 Rafales, 150 other planes like Mirage-2000, Jaguars etc. This totals to over 600 planes (33 squadrons). If this much is not enough, then it is anyways, full scale nuclear war with missiles, Navy and invasion. There is no need to raise false alarms.

By 2021, 100 Rafales? Not possible..
130 LCA? not possible

 

[Kshithij]

=>


By 2021, 100 Rafales? Not possible..
130 LCA? not possible

It is possible to have 130 LCA but for funding and the immediate availability of MK2 is preventing hasty decisions. Even then, Tejas will be in around 80 numbers by 2021.

Rafale order will be above 100 by 2021. Its delivery dates could be different. Even F16 is not magically made. If orders are placed, it will take years for delivery. Also, MiG21, MiG27 are to be retired by a 2025-7.

Even other planes like Mirage 2000, Jaguar, 275 Su30 etc will still be there which will take the number above 550 which is also big enough for Kargil type limited wars.

As I said, if necessary, Tejas can also be mass manufactured. If we have the budget to buy F16 at 100 million a piece, we also have budget to buy Tejas. If F16 can be made in large numbers, so can Tejas. Tejas is weaker than F16 due to its design and not due to failure. Tejas was always intended for mass manufacture and not 1 on 1 fight. The doctrine of Tejas is not same as F16.

India is willing to sacrifice more pilots as it has more human resources than natural resources. USA has more natural resources (like oil, coal, gas, iron, aluminum, minerals etc) and hence can afford to expend more of them. That is the difference

 

[TPFscopes]

India is willing to sacrifice more pilots as it has more human resources than natural resources. USA has more natural resources (like oil, coal, gas, iron, aluminum, minerals etc) and hence can afford to expend more of them. That is the difference

You need to get relax and go for a tight sleep.
You even don't know, how much IAF spent to train a pilot.. and for IAF Pilots are always more important than the Aircraft..

No need to respond to this..

Good Day

 

[Kshithij]

You need to get relax and go for a tight sleep.
You even don't know, how much IAF spent to train a pilot.. and for IAF Pilots are always more important than the Aircraft..

No need to respond to this..

Good Day

You need to understand that the aim of war is to ensure minimum losses to our side.

In the present scenario, India is natural resource deficit but human resources surplus. If you think this is wrong, go question god as to why this is so. I also wish India had large area like USA/China and hence smaller population density.

Pilots are indeed more important than plane. But, given the case, we have to make do with what we have. We also have a large population to protect in a small area which need intensive vigilance. Since this is the case, we need large quantity of units and not large payload.

We are willing to sacrifice more pilots because we have too much population density and can't afford to sacrifice cities. I am not speaking of planes over pilots but 10000 people in the city over 1 pilot.

The doctrine of USA is different as it doesn't have to defend but only offend. It is more important to have large number of patrol planes than a small number of planes with large payload and offensive capabilities. Large number of defenders will ensure that even if enemy slips past one, he can't slip past others.

 

[WARREN SS]

Please be specific with details, facts etc. Lets start here-
- What is the requirement in the long term for India?
- What is the need of air force for India?
- What is the minimum requirement of planes in the airforce to completely fulfil its mission? How did you come to this number?

Lets Me answer you step by step
What Is the Requirement in the long term for India ?

To answer this question We should see IAF Doctrine Which Based on Two front Air threat scenarios
For any counter doctrine we should first see the threat perception Of IAF face by its competition

Two air-forces on which IAF doctrine is based is PAF and PLAAF And there Future procurement's

Future threat perception of IAF faced By 2025

PAF

80 F-16 52/MLU + (Turkish support) Air superiority and SEAD ,DEAD Heavy Category
250 JF-17 Block1,2,3 + Ground Attack, CAS and Interceptor other roles Light To medium Category
1-2 Squadrons of J-31,J-20B (this Still Under procurement)

PLAAF

600 + J-10 and Its variants Medium category
400 + J Flanker series And its Variants Heavy category
70 + Su-30 MKK Heavy category
100+ J-20 And its Variants Heavy Category


- What is the need of air force for India?


To answer This question We should First Shed Some Light on current Inventory Of IAF

240 Su-30 MKI
51 mirage 2K (mandated to retire by 2030)
78 Mig-29 UPG ( mandated to retire by 2030)
134 Sepecat Jaguar (mandated To retire By 2030)
87 + Mig -27 (All Phased out by 2019-20)
245 + Mig -21 (All Phased out by 2025 )

So If We Go by IAF Requirements Currently In Next 12-15 years 595 + Aircrafts of Light and Medium Will be Phased Out By IAF


- What is the minimum requirement of planes in the airforce to completely fulfil its mission? How did you come to this number?

Now Minimum Requirements on Which IAF Can Counter Its threat Effectively Maintaining superiority over Its Enemy

Now People Suggest LCA but Its currently a Project Which Still Not Par With What ASQR Required by IAF
AMCA is Still Far fetched Dreams Which Aspect-ed From DSPU's To deliver Which are Still Struggling With LCA project To Make it Par With IAF ASQR

Based On Current Procurement's Picture of IAF Projected in 2025

272 Su-30 MKI
51 Mirage M2k (bound retire in 2030-32)
78 Mig-29 UPG (retire by 2030-32)
LCA MK1/MK1A 80 +
36 Rafale F3R (36 more If Follow on order goes through )
Jaguars 74+ Mostly Darin-3 upgraded
87Mig-27 retired
245 Mig-21 retired

Short Fall Of IAF Will Around 400 + fighters in various Roles At-least by 2048

To see What minimum required See To what available to us And We should Give Priority To just adding up numbers or Quality aswell

Gripen E is Good Omini role Fighter With higher Payload And EW And Sensors And Better Weapon Integration +longer range
Rafale Will be Another Option Which has same quality And Weapon Integration And longer range


Numbers Required

100 Light To medium Weight fighters (Gripen )
100 To Heavy And medium weight (rafale)

To correct Short Fall Further buying 2 Squadrons of MKI more And rest Con be made up With LCA and it variant

Correct Numbers Should be

300+ Su-30 MKI
100 Rafale
100 Gripen or other option
150 + LCA and Its variants

To Counter 5th Generation Threat of PLAAF We Should Find Options Sooner Within 2-3 years or It Will haunt Us in future

Assessment I made Is on Facts And Possible Given Future Scenarios by Analysis of capabilities of IAF competition Like PAF and PLAAF And Its Doctrine

PS: You Are free To Add Your Inputs Or Analyze Mine

 

[TPFscopes]

You need to understand that the aim of war is to ensure minimum losses to our side.

In the present scenario, India is natural resource deficit but human resources surplus. If you think this is wrong, go question god as to why this is so. I also wish India had large area like USA/China and hence smaller population density.

Pilots are indeed more important than plane. But, given the case, we have to make do with what we have. We also have a large population to protect in a small area which need intensive vigilance. Since this is the case, we need large quantity of units and not large payload.

We are willing to sacrifice more pilots because we have too much population density and can't afford to sacrifice cities. I am not speaking of planes over pilots but 10000 people in the city over 1 pilot.

The doctrine of USA is different as it doesn't have to defend but only offend. It is more important to have large number of patrol planes than a small number of planes with large payload and offensive capabilities. Large number of defenders will ensure that even if enemy slips past one, he can't slip past others.

:bs::bs:. .

You're ruining this thread with the nonsense.
No country want to fight war when its importance is economy.
Talks are the most important Weapon in the world even wars need talks for settlement. Weapons are required to ensure a good environment for talks.

If you further want to continue this BS than you are requested to post a new nonsense thread..

 

[Kshithij]

Lets Me answer you step by step
What Is the Requirement in the long term for India ?

To answer this question We should see IAF Doctrine Which Based on Two front Air threat scenarios
For any counter doctrine we should first see the threat perception Of IAF face by its competition

Two air-forces on which IAF doctrine is based is PAF and PLAAF And there Future procurement's

Future threat perception of IAF faced By 2025

PAF

80 F-16 52/MLU + (Turkish support) Air superiority and SEAD ,DEAD Heavy Category
250 JF-17 Block1,2,3 + Ground Attack, CAS and Interceptor other roles Light To medium Category
1-2 Squadrons of J-31,J-20B (this Still Under procurement)

PLAAF

600 + J-10 and Its variants Medium category
400 + J Flanker series And its Variants Heavy category
70 + Su-30 MKK Heavy category
100+ J-20 And its Variants Heavy Category


- What is the need of air force for India?


To answer This question We should First Shed Some Light on current Inventory Of IAF

240 Su-30 MKI
51 mirage 2K (mandated to retire by 2030)
78 Mig-29 UPG ( mandated to retire by 2030)
134 Sepecat Jaguar (mandated To retire By 2030)
87 + Mig -27 (All Phased out by 2019-20)
245 + Mig -21 (All Phased out by 2025 )

So If We Go by IAF Requirements Currently In Next 12-15 years 595 + Aircrafts of Light and Medium Will be Phased Out By IAF


- What is the minimum requirement of planes in the airforce to completely fulfil its mission? How did you come to this number?

Now Minimum Requirements on Which IAF Can Counter Its threat Effectively Maintaining superiority over Its Enemy

Now People Suggest LCA but Its currently a Project Which Still Not Par With What ASQR Required by IAF
AMCA is Still Far fetched Dreams Which Aspect ed For DSPU's To deliver Which Still Struggling With LCA project To Make it Par With IAF ASQR

Based On Current Procurement's Picture of IAF Projected in 2025

272 Su-30 MKI
51 Mirage M2k (bound retire in 2030-32
78 Mig-29 UPG (retire by 2030-32)
LCA MK1/MK1A 80 +
36 Rafale F3R (39 more If Follow on order goes through )
Jaguars 74+ Mostly Darin-3 upgraded
87Mig-27 retired
245 Mig-21 retired

Short Fall Of IAF Will Around 400 + fighters in various Roles At-least by 2048

To see What minimum required See To what available to us And We should Give Priority To just adding up numbers or Quality aswell

Gripen E is Good Omini role Fighter With higher Payload And EW And Sensors And Better Weapon Integration +longer range
Rafale Will be Another Option Which has same quality And Weapon Integration And longer range


Numbers Required

100 Light To medium Weight fighters (Gripen )
100 To Heavy And medium weight (rafale)

To correct Short Fall Further buying 2 Squadrons of MKI more And rest Con be made up With LCA and it variant

Correct Numbers Should be

300+ Su-30 MKI
100 Rafale
100 Gripen or other option
150 + LCA and Its variants

To Counter 5th Generation Threat of PLAAF We Should Find Options Sooner Within 2-3 years or It Will haunt Us in future

Assessment I made Is on Facts And Possible Given Future Scenarios by Analysis of capabilities of IAF competition Like PAF and PLAAF And Its Doctrine

PS: You Are free To Add Your Inputs Or Analyze Mine

Do you have a reason to say Tejas Mk2 is worse than Mirage 2k, Jaguar, MiG21, MiG27, Gripen?

If not, all of them are replaceable by Tejas Mk2. Not upto the mark is your bias. I don't understand why can't Tejas be better than Gripen. Which part is lacking? Why is it impossible to overcome? Was Gripen designed and made by god himself that none else can make similar plane?

Next, AMCA is in the making and calling it distant dream is nothing but retarded behaviour. When the model has also been selected, how can it be distant dream? The avionics, systems etc are in parallel run too. Also, considering others experience - like USA, Russia, China etc, the only problem that might delay AMCA is 5th generation engine. That is a problem but still 4.5 generation version of AMCA with lower thrust to weight engine can be used to replace Su30.

Also, your facts are your whims and fancies. The long term aim is to ensure that there is no enemy itself to wage war against. The operational readiness is only short term plan and not long term.

Your facts and future prospects are your whimsical scenario. There is no reason in your words to deride indigenous options.

Unless you can specifically state-
1. What is wrong with Tejas Mk1A?
2. Why is Tejas Mk2 inferior in quality than Gripen or F16 (except in payload)?
3. Why Tejas can't be completed by 2024-5? What is wrong and why can't India do what other countries are doing at the same pace?
4. Why is AMCA a distant dream? Why can't India do what other countries did?

 

[SELVAM]

100 F16 or gripen will cost us 15 billion USD. If we replace 250 MiGs with gripen or F16 we will become bankrupt.

 

[WARREN SS]

Do you have a reason to say Tejas Mk2 is worse than Mirage 2k, Jaguar, MiG21, MiG27, Gripen?

LOL I Aspected logical reasoning from you but you replied like dumb wit

LCA MK2 Is Still Not at Prototype stage

Let alone Compare it With Aircraft Which already operational service

If not, all of them are replaceable by Tejas Mk2. Not upto the mark is your bias. I don't understand why can't Tejas be better than Gripen. Which part is lacking? Why is it impossible to overcome? Was Gripen designed and made by god himself that none else can make similar plane?

Again LCA MK2 is far fetched

the prototype is not yet finalized let alone getting it IOC and Foc

whereas

Next, AMCA is in the making and calling it distant dream is nothing but retarded behaviour. When the model has also been selected, how can it be distant dream? The avionics, systems etc are in parallel run too. Also, considering others experience - like USA, Russia, China etc, the only problem that might delay AMCA is 5th generation engine. That is a problem but still 4.5 generation version of AMCA with lower thrust to weight engine can be used to replace Su30.

So You Want IAF With Fly With Model Only

• What Is Its primary radar?
• what about EW and sensor fusion and about engine Finalization
• Composites And Weapon integration
• Testing and flight certification
• First prototype date ??
• When Will be First prototype come out ??
• When Will get FOC and production start

What is wrong with Tejas Mk1A?

Light Weight And Less range radar
With zero modification accept radar

Prototype not out yet Let alone getting its IOC and FOC certification

3. Why Tejas can't be completed by 2024-5? What is wrong and why can't India do what other countries are doing at the same pace?

Don't ask me ASK CAG And HAL

Why there Is no FOC of MK1 yets ???

4. Why is AMCA a distant dream? Why can't India do what other countries did?

Lack of innovation And Privatization on correct time

And babudum culture Of DPSU's Accountability And Messing up deadlines




Still Not Answered Question How IAF Will Substitute 595 + Aircraft's Which are phased out within 12-15 years from now on

 

[WARREN SS]

100 F16 or gripen will cost us 15 billion USD. If we replace 250 MiGs with gripen or F16 we will become bankrupt.

Sirji 100 gripen Will take 10-12 Years induct by that time Our budget And Capex Will cross 100 -120+ billion $
Take that into account as Well

We can also take Loans Like Qatar did in case Rafale