IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[rock127]

Look at @rock127 post. Pretty self explanatory.

That Chinese hiding under HK flag would once again come with a lame excuse.

He is no one here so ignore him, he is in a DENIAL MODE just like a typical Paki.

 

[DivineLight]

@asianobserve

JF-17 shot down Su-30. If you don't believe it, please check reliable Pakistani sources or Chinese sources. We sacked the guy who was in charge of the western side because of it.



p.s. IAF is just some random org which spouts whatever comes to it's mind. We didn't invest much in any INT services. Probably should have stationed some guy on every 10 meter along the border to provide proof in case something like this happens.

 

[AnantS]

Really? It seems that is the common practice to you not the world. Without flags to identify themselves, they can't be protected by Geneva treaties. The enemy can simply treat them as spies: facing death squad or life prison.

PS: just look at that Indian pilot he was still wearing his flag and Patches.

Can you point out specific protocol in Geneva Conventions which states country Flag needs to worn by AFP?
PS: Again look at the Pilot, thats the name Patch with airforce emblem. There is no flag!

 

[asianobserve]

The

Look at @rock127 post. Pretty self explanatory.

There's nothing in his post about downing of F16...

 

[Rahul Singh]

Last night i had the eureka moment.

Did someone ask Rashtriya Rifles to show the proof that people they have killed calling Jehadis are indeed terrorists? I think we should ask them to show the pics and duly verified accounts of intel records on killed Terrorist.

But hey i have not seen any proof which proves that Maulana Massor Azhar and Hafiz Saeed are indeed terrorists.

So until GoI has come up with cross verified proof from an international organization as i don't trust my government and military) I will call them Messengers of God. The God which is most merciful, magnificent and the Only God.

Allah-o-Bakri ...........errr. My indoctrination is still not complete so pardon my spelling error.

----------------------------------------------

I am appalled at seeing how easy it is for Pakis to use its subversion tactics to full effect on a sanction of the Indian population.

 

[no smoking]

Can you point out specific protocol in Geneva Conventions which states country Flag needs to worn by AFP?
PS: Again look at the Pilot, thats the name Patch with airforce emblem. There is no flag!

Art.4. of Geneva Convention III

Quote:"
1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well
as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of
such armed forces.
2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer
corps, including those of organized resistance movements,
belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or
outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied,
provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such
organized resistance movements, fulfil the following
conditions:
a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his
subordinates;
b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;"

So, it is the duty of each State to take steps so that MEMBERS of its armed forces can be immediately recognized as such and to see to it that they are easily distinguishable from members of the enemy armed forces or from civilians. The Convention does not provide for any reciprocal notification of uniforms or insignia, but merely assumes that such items will be well known and that there can be NO ROOM FOR DOUBT. If need be, any person to whom the provisions of Article 4 are applicable can prove his status by presenting the identity card provided for in Article 17.

In other words, if any Indian pilot want to be treated as prisoner of war when he or she gets captured, he or she must make sure their outlook can easily distinguish them from civilians or enemy combatant. Removing these signs or trying to hide their identity will make any mistreatment upon them legitimate.

In this case, if this gentleman's uniform leaves no doubt about his identity as an Indian pilot, then Indian government can sue Pakistan for his suffering in the hands of Pakistan villagers. Otherwise, there is nothing can be done.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Pilot of downed Pakistan Air Force F-16 Shahaz-ud-Din mistaken for Indian airman, lynched by Nowshera mob


View attachment 32927


New Delhi: Even as Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman walked across the India-Pakistan border on 1 March, a family in Pakistan is in mourning — silent, blacked out from the public view, their sacrifice unacknowledged. Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Shahaz-ud-Din, the F-16 pilot shot down in a dogfight over the Nowshera sector, is reported to have been lynched by a mob who mistook him for an Indian airman.

Both men, in one of those strange twists history revels in, come from illustrious military families: Wing Commander Varthaman’s father, S Varthaman, as Air Marshal; Shahaz-ud-Din’s father, Waseem-ud-Din, is also an Air Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force, who has flown F-16 and Mirages.

Remains of the Pakistani fighter jet which crashed on 28 February. ANI

The two sons engaged each other in the air; one was taken a prisoner of war and has returned home, while the other was killed by his own people.

The goddess of war, it is said, is fickle with her favours — but few twists of fate exist in the annals of history to match this one.The news that Shahaz-ud-Din's plane was shot down was first reported by London-based lawyer Khalid Umar, who says he received it privately, from individuals related to the F-16 pilot’s family.

Umar’s account says that Shahaz-ud-Din parachuted out of his aircraft safely, but was then attacked by a mob after the F-16 crash-landed — possibly in the Laam valley, stretching out westward from Naushehra into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Shahaz-ud-Din, Umar has claimed, was hospitalised, but succumbed to his injuries.

The PAF Wing Commander flew for the 19 Squadron, also known as the ‘Sher-Dils’, who served with distinction in the war of 1965 and 1971. Pakistani military spokesperson Major-General Asif Ghafoor had asserted, on the morning of 28 February, that two Indian jets had been shot down and two Indian pilots injured — one of whom was in army custody, and the other in the hospital.

Later in the evening, Major-General Ghafoor stated that only one Indian pilot was in Pakistan Army custody, without explaining his earlier comments. “It’s extremely improbable the Pakistan Army just made up the second plane and pilot,” an Indian military source says. "The more likely explanation is that troops were unable to identify the destroyed aircraft or the battered, broken body to be their own. There was probably miscommunication up the chain of command.”

In the 1999 Kargil War, Pakistan had denied its troops were involved — leading to protests in Pakistan’s northern areas, from where the Northern Light Infantry is drawn.

Eleven years after the Kargil War, Pakistan’s army officially acknowledged its role, naming 453 soldiers and officers killed in the 1999 conflict. Captain Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan, who were both killed on 7 July, 1999, were awarded Pakistan’s highest honour, the Nishan-e-Haider, but were not acknowledged as Kargil war casualties until November 2010.
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Maulana Rockullah's Expert comment: So Pakis first said 2 Indian jets were downed and 2 pilots were killed. The FACT seems to be one jet was F-16 downed by rusting Mig-21and the Pak locals lynched down to death their own Pak Air Force Wing Commander who is a son of Air marshal.
Our pilot Wg Cmdr Abhinandan came back as a HERO shooting a advanced plane by a "rusting bucket" !!!

@airtel @aditya10r @Abhijat @A chauhan @Alien @alphacentury @Ancient Indian @Ankit Purohit @anupamsurey @armyofhind @Bharat Ek Khoj @Bhumihar @blueblood @brational @Bangalorean @Blackwater @Bornubus @bose @Bullet @cobra commando @DingDong @DFI_COAS @dhananjay1 @ersakthivel @F-14B @fooLIam @gpawar @guru-dutt @here2where @hit&run @HariPrasad-1 @Indx TechStyle @Kshatriya87 @jackprince @Kharavela @Illusive @I_PLAY_BAD @LETHALFORCE @Lions Of Punjab @maomao @Mad Indian @OneGrimPilgrim @Peter @piKacHHu @Pinky Chaudhary @porky_kicker @Razor @raja696 @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @SanjeevM @saty @sydsnyper @Srinivas_K @Screambowl @sorcerer @Simple_Guy @Sylex21 @wickedone @tarunraju @TrueSpirit2 @thethinker @Tshering22 @vayuu1 @VIP @Vishwarupa @VIP @Varahamihira @roma @Navnit Kundu @WARREN SS @Willy2 @3deffect


Our esteemed Terrorist Paki Panel: @Neo @Raja.pakistani @Zarvan @musalman @Zulfiqar Khan @Raheel1991
Kuch bolo besharmon??? Besharam kaum apne fauji ko he peet ke maar dala! Hilarious!

It's such a INSULT to be a Pak fauji when they are not even acknowledged by their own and more dramatically (in this case) lynched to death by their locals.I really pity all armed forces of Pakis. HILARIOUS!!!

Please tag more Pakis here as I am back after long time here.

They are getting what they deserve. They have made people their slave and people are returning what Porki armed forces have sown. Zahil mulk main vohi hoa hai.

 

[sorcerer]

The paki pigs blamed Thailand..and Thailand called pakis a pathological liar giving the world and parties concerned the proof they needed to debunk the paki lies on AMRRAM.

Now.. USA in few hours confirm that its fired from an F-16 and them pakis have messed up.
pakis will live upto the reputation of pathological liars again

Edit:
Taiwan...Not Thailand.

 

[Rahul Singh]

RoE probably. I suspect AMRAAM was used as BVR to lock on Su 30 MKI. If we had indeed lost an Su 30 MKI, it would have been revealed as India does not hide casualty figures. Govt would have said it was technical fault if it so happened.

The reason why Paki F-16 fired Aim-120 was to break intercepting formation launched by IAF. In BVR one who shoots first gets the upper hand. So SU-30MKI had no option but to do evasive maneuvers. Meanwhile, Mig-21 closed in as they were near so they engaged F-16 first.

The RoE that day was "Detter, do not shoot first". So our fighter jets were defensive to start with. Alas! had RoE been "Fire at Will" 4-5 F-16s would have been shot down, in addition, other jets of that paki strike package.

I think Modi-Doval from now on needs to get fully aggressive. Never show restraint not even in tactical engagements. Go all hog.

 

[bose]

PAF is the only air force that has lost F-16 against Mig-21... no shame at all...

 

[bose]

Indian government is sharing the proof of downed PAF F-16 to other countries namely the P5 and some European countries ...

Government must make it public to all ...

 

[ashdoc]

The thing that is pissing me off is that we did nothing even after porki fired Amraams on our Fighter jets.

The porkies fired amraam missiles only after our two mig 21s had crossed the LOC , by which time our Sukhoi and mirage fighters had broken the engagement as they were not supposed to cross the LOC . WC Abhinandan Vardhman was warned by his wingman not to cross the LOC , but he nevertheless did cross it as he had locked on a Pakistani jet . But others on our side were more prudent and didn't cross the loc . So no one was there to fire AA 12 missiles at porkies .

 

[Joker]

What's.significant from iaf presser is that sukhois avoided "multiple" amraams. If I were Pakistan I would be begging for peace, it's like bringing knife to gunfight. Do you people understand the significance!!! India can evade paksitans best a2a missile!
What will save them from an air attack - longdong 58? I don't think so!!!!!

No wonder paki are asking for peace, their airspace is closed and no one is allowed into it. its simply because they don't have any answers to the current capabilities of IAF. China is also scared as India has formidable numbers of su30. Remember, even after cloning su29, chinaa has gone for su35. So quality if -J11 is suspect. So no comment from chini.

I imagine a brutal strike at army brigade HQ or Corp HQ in coming days. India is not gonna descalate this. This time Pakistan can count the casualties as they will have to order that many paki flags for burials.

 

[aarav]

Significant statement from IAF was that SU30 and Mirage 2000 were able to successfully enable counter measures against AIM-120 AMRAAM ,it is the best air to air missile not just in Paki inventory but US inventory too ,their F22 raptors also carry AIM120 and sidewinders ,so it is another significant detail

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The paki pigs blamed Thailand..and Thailand called pakis a pathological liar giving the world and parties concerned the proof they needed to debunk the paki lies on AMRRAM.

Now.. USA in few hours confirm that its fired from an F-16 and them pakis have messed up.
pakis will live upto the reputation of pathological liars again

Taiwan.

...........................

 

[sorcerer]

Taiwan.

...........................

Yeah...Taiwan..
My bad...I said..Thailand instead of Taiwan

 

[Joker]

PAF is the only air force that has lost F-16 against Mig-21... no shame at all...

There is no shame is losing to Indian Air force
As for paki shame, they surrendered that in 1971, as they are a martial race.

 

[Anikastha]

Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke
While appreciating the good word done by the IAF, it is important to keep in mind that the MiG-21 is a 65-year-old design and has an unprecedented crash rate that has taken the lives of at least 177 Indian pilots

Just after 10 am on February 27, 2019, the Pakistan Air Force deployed "a large strike package" of modern F-16 Falcons, Chinese made JF-17s and some vintage Mirage-5 attack jets to avenge India's bombing of terror sanctuaries in Balakot, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The PAF's targets were Indian military installations - primarily the brigade headquarters in Bhimber Gali, Jammu, minutes from the Line of Control.

The Indian Air Force scrambled six MiG-21s from its frontline air base in Srinagar to intercept the Pakistani fighters; Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's fighter was among these six aircraft. The IAF also despatched Sukhoi-30MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MiG-29s from other airbases to provide combat air patrol for the MiG-21 interceptors.

In the ensuing dogfight, the first between India and Pakistan since the 1971 War, Wing Commander Varthaman in his Soviet-era jet managed to acquire a lock on one of the F-16s, shooting it down with a short-range Vympel R-73 air to air missile. Although he couldn't see the outcome of the short 15-minute high-altitude dogfight, Varthaman radioed to base the words "R-73 selected". Seconds later he was himself shot down.

Being the first recorded F-16 kill in history, you'd think it would send ripples across the world of aviation. But curiously, Western defence experts maintained complete silence as the impact of what Varthaman had accomplished took the wind out of the F-16's fanboys.

Coping well at Cope India

Coincidentally, 15 years ago to the date, the MiG-21 (NATO reporting name: Fishbed) had defeated modern American F-series aircraft in a mock combat exercise, sending shock waves through the American defence establishment. In the space of just 13 days, at the Cope India exercise held at the Gwalior air force range from February 15-27, 2004, Indian pilots notched up an astounding 9:1 kill ratio against the all-powerful US Air Force, dealing a massive blow to the myth of invincibility of American air power. What happened at Gwalior will better explain how a six-decade-old jet that has been consigned to the boneyard by the Russians could defeat a modern F-16.
Held from February 15-27, Cope India 2004 highlighted three major issues:

• The innovativeness of Indian fighter pilots.
• The impact of Russian jets when flown by a highly trained and motivated crew.
• The limitations in USAF pilot training.

While the Pentagon brass tried to knock the IAF's achievement, the USAF gave their Indian counterparts their due. Aviation Week & Space Technology's David A. Fulghum quotes Colonel Mike Snodgrass, commander of the USAF's 3rd Wing based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska: "The outcome of the exercise boils down to (the fact that) they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected...They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change (tactics in flight)."

About the different IAF fighters the six F-15Cs from the American pilots encountered, Snodgrass said: "The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: "What we've seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home."

"They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out."

Clearly, it was the IAF's intense training that has given it the edge. A leading Indian newspaper summed up the aerial encounter: "The US Air Force underestimated the Indian Air Force pilots and their numerical skills. They thought these are another set of Iraqi or Iranian pilots."

A different spin in DC

Used to hearing the United States is second only to god, the US leadership nearly burst a collective artery. The USAF detachment had barely packed up its kits at Gwalior when Republican Congressman from California, Duke Cunningham, told a House Appropriations defence subcommittee hearing that USAF F-15Cs had been defeated more than 90 per cent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

Cunningham's revelation kicked up a huge uproar in Washington. Some Western military observers attempted to debunk the results, claiming the USAF did not bring its true 'go-to-war-gear' to these exercises and that the American pilots fought with several handicaps. What really happened?

Handicapped and totally unprepared

First up, it's true the F-15Cs that participated in Cope India 2004 were not equipped with the latest active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. But then neither were the Indian jets. Secondly, at India's request the USAF agreed to offer combat at 3-to-1 odds, which meant the six American jets were up against 18 IAF aircraft. And finally, the Americans agreed not to simulate their beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles. Doesn't look like a fair fight.

But wait, ask yourself, which air force would spend millions of dollars on a fortnight long exercise that ends in a turkey shoot? Not the IAF, which is a highly professional service. Also, why would the USAF bring all that high-octane military gear all that way just to get a drubbing?

The IAF believes its strength is dogfighting, for which it trains hard as Western air forces. Secondly, the service did not deploy its advanced Su-30 MKI (NATO reporting name: Flanker), only the older Su-30, because the MKI's radar frequencies are classified. There's little advantage in letting your adversary's patron know your combat strategies.

The Indians wanting to even the odds is understandable but the United States accepting these handicaps seems counterintuitive. But in fact the USAF agreed because it was desperate to get a close look at the legendary Flanker.

Why the USAF came up short

The lopsided result can be explained in the difference in combat styles of the two air forces. While the IAF varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations, the American pilot seemed stuck in the static Cold War-style of ground-controlled interceptions, which gives little leeway to the individual pilot. Weaknesses in crew performance and limitations in their range of action were evident during the simulated aerial combat.

Also, US fighter pilots train in a closed system where belief in the America military's superiority reigns supreme. The strategy is that overwhelming numbers - recall the 1,000 aircraft raids over defenceless and tiny Iraq - and technological pyrotechnics will allow the US to dominate without sweating it out. With the notable exception of Vietnam, the US has never take on a large or well-trained military - and probably never will - so the strategy has worked for it.

Also, the 1982 wipeout of the Syrian Air Force over the Bekka Valley by the Israeli Air Force in which 82 Syrian MiGs were downed against the loss of perhaps two American-built Israeli jets had reinforced the belief that US jet fighters are invincible. It was Cope India 2004 that showed the quality of the men in uniform matters more than the jets they fly.

Also read: Abhinandan returns home: Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman meets Wing Commander in hospital

Cope India 2005: Repeat performance

Because of the storm kicked up by Cope India 2004 -which threatened the growing Indo-US partnership - the following year the IAF and USAF opted for exercises that had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides. But observers and participants at the exercise said in a surprising number of encounters - particularly between USAF F-16s and Indian Su-30 MKIs - the Indian pilots came out on top.

Cope India 2005 proved the previous year's IAF performance was no fluke. The late air commodore Jasjit Singh, who was the then director of the new Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies, said: "Since the Cold War, there has been the general assumption that India is a third world country with Soviet technology, and wherever Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well. That myth has been blown away by the results."

Air power dynamics

For the Americans, Cope India was a wakeup call as it had grossly underestimated an old Cold Warrior. While it expected the Mirage-2000s and Sukhoi to be potent adversaries, the MiG-21 Bison came as a nasty surprise to the USAF. The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and "jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors that gave it an edge.

Plus, its new of helmet mounted sight and high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles turned the MiG-21 into a "Great Equaliser" in the WVR (within visual range) combat scenario. (The Vympel's ability to rapidly scan a wider angle of the sky in front of it gave Varthaman a huge advantage against his F-16 rival.)

This has serious implications for modern aircraft armed with powerful long range capabilities and weapons. At some stage these aircraft will have to come within visual range and that's when pocket rockets like the MiG-21 can be deadly. As Benjamin Lambeth of the Rand Corporation so succinctly put its, "In visual combat everybody dies at the same rate."

Also read: Mirages over Balakot: Why Pakistan cannot defend its airspace

Fly with caution

Varathaman's heroics should not be a thumbs-up for the IAF to keep flying ancient warhorses. A critical factor in the MiG-21's F-16 kill over Jammu & Kashmir was the combat air patrol provided by the Sukhoi Su-30s, MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s. The extremely long range capabilities of the Su-30s and its legendary super-manoeuvrability give it a huge edge in a dogfight that the much smaller F-16 cannot match. The Sukhoi has a loiter and combat persistence ability that has no Western equivalent.

The knowledge that both these air superiority fighters - plus the powerful Mirage-2000s - could enter the dogfight any time and blow them out of the sky was no doubt weighing on the minds of the PAF pilots.

While appreciating the good word done by the IAF, it is important to keep in mind that the MiG-21 is a 65-year-old design and has an unprecedented crash rate that has taken the lives of at least 177 Indian pilots. And let's not forget that Varthaman's MiG-21 was unable to shake off the powerful AMRAAM air-to-air missile fired at it. The MiG-21 belongs in a boneyard, not in Srinagar where by default it becomes India's frontline aircraft - a role it was given when it first entered the IAF fleet in 1964.

(Rakesh Krishnan is a New Zealand-based defence and foreign affairs analyst)

https://m.businesstoday.in/lite/sto...nt-mig-21-f-16-kill-is-no-fluke/1/324025.html

 

[bose]

There is no shame is losing to Indian Air force
As for paki shame, they surrendered that in 1971, as they are a martial race.

Shameless Pakistanis was shitting in their pant the other day ...

Their Prime Minister Taliban Khan was so scared that he released WC Abhi ... so shameless like his country he called Modi three times and got rebuffed ...

The reason that shameless Pakistani is coming again and again to this forum with fake id's is proof that they can not take their F-16 downed by primitive Mig - 21

 

[Spindrift]

[URGENT, Please read]
Okay guys there is video made using the tiktot app that apparently shows the downed Paki pilot floating around.
It was posted by this "https://twitter.com/_Xubair_" as a response to a tweet by Zaid Hamid. The response has since been taken down. Link to the response is: "twitter.com/_Xubair_/status/1102980013568258048".
In the video it shows the pilot just siting down on the ground with the parachute still attached to him and he is still wearing the helmet and the reason I think it is not of our WC Abhinandan is because if you see his videos he is wearing a patch on his right arm and the pilot from the above mentioned video does not have that and he also has a collar on his right shoulder showing his rank.
The tweet was taken down before I could download it. If any of you are using tiktok try to find that and in the mean time i'll also try to find that.