IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[Rahul Singh]

108 baar #PKAKB.......................

 

[Heat]

Still a lot of claims but no clear proof. This is all nationalistic jingoism that's clouding rational analysis...

Anyway, this analysis from Bellingcat is more compelling - https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/02/falcon-vs-bison-verifying-a-mig-21-wreck/

Wasn't there a video of a plane going down in POK with 2 chutes popping out of it ?

F-16 kill is pretty much a fact at this point.

 

[asianobserve]

There are many tale-tale signs such as.


Now the question is if we have all the evidence then why not release it to the public?

So let me ask a counter question. What is the need?

Indians trust in our armed forces. Our MoE said we lost 1 pilot. Pakistanis said 2 pilots and in 4 hrs started saying just 1 pilot. Do i need to speak further about the professionalism of Indian side and lack of Professionalism of Pakistanis? In all the JINGOISM as an officer, as high a DG-ISPR Gafoor did not bother to cross check his facts about the number of Pilots before calling a media briefing. Top it off with PM Pakitan doing the same. I mean seriously?

Add to it is one glaring fact that Pakistanis are such a bunch of fools who are still taught in their textbooks that Pakistan won 1971 war. And Pakistanis across length and breath actually believe that have won 1971 despite the existence of Bangladesh.

I mean for Pakistan which has LIES as proteins of its DNA, why should GoI waste even a second on divulging details of 27 Feb when Mig-21 shot down PAF F-16?
.

Believe me, you do not have a Paki lover here. But there is just no hard evidence about a downed F-16. The AMRAAM remains do not prove that an F-16 was shot down. Granting that the AMRAAM piece is verifiable then it only proves that on the very least PAF used F-16 against India.

With the intensity of the info war being waged by India and Pakistan now if there is more concrete evidence of a downed PAF F-16 then it would already be out in the open or on the very least shared with the US (detailed satellite, communications recording, etc.), other countries and mainstream respectable media outlets, much like what Turkey did against Saudi in Kashogi case.

Besides, with the ease at which people can post pictures on the internet images of another wreckage would have already been posted by now if there is one. Even from Pakistani sources much like what happened in the aftermath of the Abottabad raid.

Of course, I'm not totally disclosing the possibility that an F-16 was shot down. I'm just saying that for now all the purported reports about it from the Indian side do not show proof of a downed F-16. Worse, a lot of these reports are mere disinformation campaigns either based on old photos of downed aircraft (clumsily using its own downed Mig-21 wreck) and rumors. No self-respecting reporter should be passing on this amateurish and blatant falsities.

Anyway, if an F-16 was indeed shot down then photos of it will eventually leak.

 

[AnantS]

Believe me, you do not have a Paki lover here. But there is just no hard evidence about a downed F-16. The AMRAAM remains do not prove that an F-16 was shot down. Granting that the AMRAAM piece is verifiable then it only proves that on the very least PAF used F-16 against India.

With the intensity of the info war being waged by India and Pakistan now if there is more concrete evidence of a downed PAF F-16 then it would already be out in the open or on the very least shared with the US (detailed satellite, communications recording, etc.), other countries and mainstream respectable media outlets, much like what Turkey did against Saudi in Kashogi case.

Besides, with the ease at which people can post pictures on the internet images of another wreckage would have already been posted by now if there is one. Even from Pakistani sources much like what happened in the aftermath of the Abottabad raid.

Of course, I'm not totally disclosing the possibility that an F-16 was shot down. I'm just saying that for now all the purported reports about it from the Indian side do not show proof of a downed F-16. Worse, a lot of these reports are mere disinformation campaigns either based on old photos of downed aircraft (clumsily using Mig-21 wrecks) and rumors. No self-respecting rtporyer should be passing on this amateurish and blatant falsities.

Anyway, if an F-16 was indeed shot down then photos of it will eventually leak.

its not urban jungle where the crash happened. If you dont believe Indian sources - then can you tell why did Pakistan claimed they had 3 pilots? they showed picture of one captured pilot as well as documents belonging to crashed mig 21. Where are the pilots and wreckage related it? Remember No less than Paki army ISPR & PM of pakistan claimed they had more than one Indian pilot and shot more than one Indian aircraft. And ISPR took more than 12 hours(late) to change statement to only one pilot captured!. The ground reports of INdian side as well as Paki mention more than 2 Parachutes seen.

So if India is lying - hiding their casualties and crash... Pakistan which broke the story of 3/2 captured. Why is it hesitant to show the rest? Given Paki claim it was Sukhoi that went down.. that would be a great opportunity to embarrass India - and no Paki worth his salt would leave that chance... so where are the rest of pilots and wreckage. Both Pakistan and Indian officials say wreckage fell on Pakistan occupied Kashmir???

I know F-16 going down is a big do-do, so arm dealers and promoters have vested interest in maintaining or creating doubt, but anyone with basic intelligence and can do the math.

 

[asianobserve]

And the most bizarre rumor I've read about this saga is the claim that the pilot of the downed F-16 was mistakened for sn IAF pikot and lynched by Pakis. I mean if the Mig21 pilot was not even lunched to death (although still pretty roughed up) by Pakis how can a Pakistani pilot be lynched when he would clearly be identifiable even to civilians with his uniform and patches.... this story for me is the cherry on top of the cake in the India media hysteria....

 

[Dovah]

And the most bizarre rumor I've read about this saga is the claim that the pilot of the downed F-16 was mistakened for sn IAF pikot and lynched by Pakis. I mean if the Mig21 pilot was not even lunched to death (although still pretty roughed up) by Pakis how can a Pakistani pilot be lynched when he would clearly be identifiable even to civilians with his uniform and patches.... this story for me is the cherry on top of the cake in the India media hysteria....

He was rescued by Pakis before the jahil villagers could finish what they started, this is on record. Secondly, the theory goes that the Paki soldier was severely injured and could not identify/defend himself and was killed before PA could arrive.

There is a lot of room for doubt in F-16 down theories coming from the Indian media. But if the perceived lynching of PAF pilot is your biggest gripe with it, you are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[asianobserve]

its not urban jungle where the crash happened. If you dont believe Indian sources - then can you tell why did Pakistan claimed they had 3 pilots? they showed picture of one captured pilot as well as documents belonging to crashed mig 21. Where are the pilots and wreckage related it? Remember No less than Paki army ISPR & PM of pakistan claimed they had more than one Indian pilot and shot more than one Indian aircraft. And ISPR took more than 12 hours(late) to change statement to only one pilot captured!. The ground reports of INdian side as well as Paki mention more than 2 Parachutes seen.

So if India is lying - hiding their casualties and crash... Pakistan which broke the story of 3/2 captured. Why is it hesitant to show the rest? Given Paki claim it was Sukhoi that went down.. that would be a great opportunity to embarrass India - and no Paki worth his salt would leave that chance... so where are the rest of pilots and wreckage. Both Pakistan and Indian officials say wreckage fell on Pakistan occupied Kashmir???

I know F-16 going down is a big do-do, so arm dealers and promoters have vested interest in maintaining or creating doubt, but anyone with basic intelligence and can do the math.

No fighter jet is invincible, not even American made, especially in the hands of clumsy pilots. We've seen F-16s shot down in the past by smaller air forces. So it can be done. There is no argument there. But in the case of the Indian claim of a PAF F-16 shot down.... there's just no proof yet. Surely, if the IAF has concrete proof about it then they would have already shared it to the World by now to even out the injury...

 

[AnantS]

And the most bizarre rumor I've read about this saga is the claim that the pilot of the downed F-16 was mistakened for sn IAF pikot and lynched by Pakis. I mean if the Mig21 pilot was not even lunched to death (although still pretty roughed up) by Pakis how can a Pakistani pilot be lynched when he would clearly be identifiable even to civilians with his uniform and patches.... this story for me is the cherry on top of the cake in the India media hysteria....

Well Mig 21 Pilot was being lynched to death. That fellow had broken rib, lower back injury and injuries around skull .. only Paki army came and intervened. Most probably he would have been shot dead just like Pilot Ajay Ahuja during Kargil war. But Pakistan was under intense pressure and quickly wanted a bargaining chip to ease Pressure from India.

Now the story which is bizzare for you.. is not so bizzare in Indian subcontinent - esp rural areas. Pilot fly without flags or identities. Pakis and Indians look alike and speak very similar language. If the other pilot landed unconscious which is quite probable because stress of ejection can cause concussion - and Paki villagers might have beaten him half dead while he was still unconscious.

 

[AnantS]

No fighter jet is invincible, not even American made, especially in the hands of clumsy pilots. We've seen F-16s shot down in the past by smaller air forces. So it can be done. There is no argument there. But in the case of the Indian claim of a PAF F-16 shot down.... there's just no proof yet. Surely, if the IAF has concrete proof about it then they would have already shared it to the World by now to even out the injury...

As I said you can believe that IAF is lying, but please bring forward our other two pilots and crashed Sukhoi wreckage. We already said that just like Mig 21, F-16 wreckage fell on PoK. Unless we invade PoK - capture and waterboard Paki Army /Airforce officials we shall not be able to present you wreckage as proof.

 

[Kazah]

IAF should release the proofs of F 16 . Clearly that AMRAAM piece can't be the only thing they are holding.

 

[asianobserve]

He was rescued by Pakis before the jahil villagers could finish what they started, this is on record. Secondly, the theory goes that the Paki soldier was severely injured and could not identify/defend himself and was killed before PA could arrive.

There is a lot of room for doubt in F-16 down theories coming from the Indian media. But if the perceived lynching of PAF pilot is your biggest gripe with it, you are being deliberately obtuse.

Pakistani pilots can easily be idetified just as Indian pilots through the flags and patches in their flight suits. There was no need for the Pakistani pilot to verbally explain to Pakistani civilians his origin since it was clear from his uniform (granting this is true) much like how the Indian pilot could not deny his origin by explaining ti Pakistani civilian that he was not Indian since they all could identify him through his uniform. So this story just does not make sense.

 

[Dovah]

Pakistani pilots can easily be idetified just as Indian pilots through the flags and patches in their flight suits. There was no need for the Pakistani pilot to verbally explain to Pakistani civilians his origin since it was clear from his uniform (granting this is true) much like how the Indian pilot could not deny his origin by explaining ti Pakistani civilian that he was not Indian since they all could identify him through his uniform. So this story just does not make sense.

Those villagers can not read or write, let alone stop to inspect uniforms. They saw a pilot crashing in from the Indian side, mob mentality takes over -- lynch him.

Anyway, F-16 theories could have been false. But the pilot being lynched is not unbelievable at all. Probably the least unbelievable part of the story considering Gafoora's statements in the morning.

 

[AnantS]

Pakistani pilots can easily be idetified just as Indian pilots through the flags and patches in their flight suits. There was no need for the Pakistani pilot to verbally explain to Pakistani civilians his origin since it was clear from his uniform (granting this is true) much like how the Indian pilot could not deny his origin by explaining ti Pakistani civilian that he was not Indian since they all could identify him through his uniform. So this story just does not make sense.

haha ... Pilots avoid wearing flags and Patches during hostilities. Thats common practice. No Paki villagers identified the pilot from uniform - thats your conjecture. The villagers came to save the pilot - and the Mig 21 pilot asked villagers if it was India - villagers faked yes. The pilot yelled euphoric Victory to India slogan. Thats when villagers came to know he was Indian and started to pelt stones. And so on .. you read story on news be it paki or indian sites.

As I understand you are here to promote American hardware - and Mig 21 shooting F-16 is the last thing you need.

 

[porky_kicker]

Believe me, you do not have a Paki lover here. But there is just no hard evidence about a downed F-16. The AMRAAM remains do not prove that an F-16 was shot down. Granting that the AMRAAM piece is verifiable then it only proves that on the very least PAF used F-16 against India.

With the intensity of the info war being waged by India and Pakistan now if there is more concrete evidence of a downed PAF F-16 then it would already be out in the open or on the very least shared with the US (detailed satellite, communications recording, etc.), other countries and mainstream respectable media outlets, much like what Turkey did against Saudi in Kashogi case.

Besides, with the ease at which people can post pictures on the internet images of another wreckage would have already been posted by now if there is one. Even from Pakistani sources much like what happened in the aftermath of the Abottabad raid.

Of course, I'm not totally disclosing the possibility that an F-16 was shot down. I'm just saying that for now all the purported reports about it from the Indian side do not show proof of a downed F-16. Worse, a lot of these reports are mere disinformation campaigns either based on old photos of downed aircraft (clumsily using its own downed Mig-21 wreck) and rumors. No self-respecting reporter should be passing on this amateurish and blatant falsities.

Anyway, if an F-16 was indeed shot down then photos of it will eventually leak.

Long story short , how do you expect India to arrange the evidence of shot down F16 whose wreckage fell into POK ?

It will be naive to expect porkies to allow Indians to enter and click photographs of the same isn't it ?

And ELINT data etc will never be released by India since it will give out our capabilities.

To believe or not to believe is the onus of the individual either way it won't change the ground reality , whatever it might be.

I choose to believe IAF , who you choose to believe is your prerogative.

 

[Joker]

@asianobserve
Paki pig got hit. I imagine the entire f-16 must have turned into a fireball, burning both the pilots and their suits. Shahzaz was barely alive when he landed, but Kashmiris finished him off. His weapons system operator must have been charred beyond recognition.

 

[asianobserve]

All this talk about PAF F-16 being shot down is hollow given the fact that there's not even a proof that a PAF fighter was indeed shot down. The only circumstance that Indian media latch on is Pakistan's initial claim that 2 IAF aircraft were shot down when in fact only 1 was shot down. Well this Pakistani claim could be just a case of a clumsy try at having too much of a good thing.

The IAF can easily produce a satellite image of the second crash without revealing too much its sensitive sstellite capabilities. I know the IAF is desperate to even out the situation against Pakis after the humiliation of one of its badly beaten pilots image in captivity being flashed in international media...

 

[AnantS]

All this talk about PAF F-16 being shot down is hollow given the fact that there's not even a proof that a PAF fighter was indeed shot down. The only circumstance that Indian media latch on is Pakistan's initial claim that 2 IAF aircraft were shot down when in fact only 1 was shot down. Well this Pakistani claim could be just a case of a clumsy try at having too much of a good thing.

The IAF can easily produce a satellite image of the second crash without revealing too much its sensitive sstellite capabilities. I know the IAF is desperate to even out the situation against Pakis after the humiliation of one of its badly beaten pilots image in captivity being flashed in international media...

Sure .. pinging ACM Dhanoa.. we need proofs. We need to win an online battle


haha

 

[asianobserve]

The IAF can easily produce something like these satellite image since the area where the clash took place was well known to them:

(Sorry I don't know how to post photo from smart phone. But I was showing a satellite image of Malaysian Air crash site in Easrern Ukraine.)

 

[asianobserve]

Sure .. pinging ACM Dhanoa.. we need proofs. We need to win an online battle


haha

We'll instead of the Air Ministry trying to make a story without substantiating about how its downed Mig21 pilot valiantly went down after it first shot down Pakistan's most advanced fighter F16, the IAF could have produced a satellite image of the second crash site inside Pakistan. At least the Pakis produced the Indian pilot...

 

[Rahul Singh]

Believe me, you do not have a Paki lover here. But there is just no hard evidence about a downed F-16. The AMRAAM remains do not prove that an F-16 was shot down. Granting that the AMRAAM piece is verifiable then it only proves that on the very least PAF used F-16 against India.

With the intensity of the info war being waged by India and Pakistan now if there is more concrete evidence of a downed PAF F-16 then it would already be out in the open or on the very least shared with the US (detailed satellite, communications recording, etc.), other countries and mainstream respectable media outlets, much like what Turkey did against Saudi in Kashogi case.

Besides, with the ease at which people can post pictures on the internet images of another wreckage would have already been posted by now if there is one. Even from Pakistani sources much like what happened in the aftermath of the Abottabad raid.

Of course, I'm not totally disclosing the possibility that an F-16 was shot down. I'm just saying that for now all the purported reports about it from the Indian side do not show proof of a downed F-16. Worse, a lot of these reports are mere disinformation campaigns either based on old photos of downed aircraft (clumsily using its own downed Mig-21 wreck) and rumors. No self-respecting reporter should be passing on this amateurish and blatant falsities.

Anyway, if an F-16 was indeed shot down then photos of it will eventually leak.

Like i said before. there are many hard evidence that are there with IAF, like electronic signature etc. But will GoI release it? I think not.

Among the many reasons, some of which i have already mentioned in my last post. One is Geopolitics.

Will US, especially its MIC, like world seeing hard evidence of F-16 getting thrashed by Mig-21? I think NO is the obvious answer. Can they pressurize India for not putting hard evidence but just enough suggestive evidence on the table in exchange for an appropriate gain in some other domain? I think YES is the obvious answer...... If i am GoI, i will take this deal every day.

Moving on to the issue about the pics of the wreckage. Tell me if you have seen the pic of fighter jet's wreck without a Paki official in uniform standing around it? Have you seen a pic in which the wreck is still burning or even smoking? Considering NO is your answer as it is mine(correct me if I am wrong). I ask what does it suggest? As per my calculations, the pictures that were allowed to be uploaded were taken much later.

Shooting video of ongoing Dog Fight is one thing and reaching to a crash spot and taking pic of the burning wreck is totally other. The difference is in miles. The Pakistani military was on high alert that day and they had the resources to reach the crash sites on time if not early than any civilian. Censorship at the spot of wreckage is much easier than finding who might have taken a video of the dog-fight.

On the issue of PAF pilot getting lynched by Pakistanis who died ultimately.

A. About mistaken identity of the PAF pilot: Well there is not much difference between a Flight suit of IAF and PAF other than a patch. And tell me how many Abduls and Ahmads residing along LOC are well versed in comprehending Pilots Squadron patch? In addition, the PAF F-16 pilot had landed injured and was half conscious. So what are the odds that he still had those patches on his uniform? Violent ejection and possible burn injuries which could make a pilot unconscious can also tear the Flight Suit. No?

B. About beating Wing CO Abhi got and that PAF pilot got: Ten twenty punches with or without stones would bring about two different outcomes if one Pilot was almost normal and another was half conscious. Sill the F-16 pilot did not die there. In the first press briefing wrt. captured Pilots, DGISPR had said, "1 Pilot has been taken into custody and 2nd pilot was injured so he has been admitted to CMS".

So where is the 2nd pilot now? Why did DGISPR LIED saying No Paki Jet was shot down and no F-16 was used (that day)? When Gafoor and PM Pakistan had mentioned about 2nd injured Pilot officially before putting on a Burkha of total silence further?

At least recovery of Aim-120 proves that Gafoor had lied about F-16 not being used there on that day. So who has hard pressed the question about 2nd Pilot, till date?

Nationalist section Indian media can be so much at many times but what are Pakistani media doing by not asking questions about the mention of 2nd pilot?

One hard question I would like to ask. What was F-16's drop tank doing with the wreck of Mig-21? Did someone mistakenly mixed some weekend of Mig-21 and F-16? I don't know the answer. But I have my reasons to believe what might have happened that day.

@hit&run @sayareakd