DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Vijyes]

Tibet controls water flow across Asia. Indus , bramhputra , Mekong all originate from Tibet.

Mao had eyes on entire north East . He said tibet is the palm but laddakh , Sikkim , Arunachal etc are the fingers and china needs them all.

Frankly Chinese claim on Arunachal are bogus and have no historical basis.

China has been a greedy land grabber and manufactures dispute to have advantage in negotiations. South China sea is latest example of Chinese policy.

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Tibet has nothing, no Resources, no water. Satluj, Brahmaputra start from Tibet but over 95% water is from Himalayan tributaries. Tibet component of the rivers are dry where you can cross the river like Brahmaputra with your feet with knee deep water level at best. This is insignificant water flow and hence can control nothing.

Also, Tibet is outside Himalaya and hence India or British could never go there and have military dominance in Tibet. So, assuming that Tibet is Indian domain is absurd. Tibet can't even serve as buffer with China as there is no boundaries between Tibet and China at all. Jut because India was retarded and gave away Bangladesh doesn't mean you can expect Chinese to be retarded and give away Tibet. We are seeing the consequences of letting Bangladesh free in terms of infiltration. Chinese were simply smarter and more reasonable and understood the importance of geographical boundaries and ensured that China is surrounded by geographical barrier like Himalaya, Ocean, Siberia desert and Gobi desert and made infiltration difficult.

 

[IndianHawk]

Tibet has nothing, no Resources, no water. Satluj, Brahmaputra start from Tibet but over 95% water is from Himalayan tributaries. Tibet component of the rivers are dry where you can cross the river like Brahmaputra with your feet with knee deep water level at best. This is insignificant water flow and hence can control nothing.

Also, Tibet is outside Himalaya and hence India or British could never go there and have military dominance in Tibet. So, assuming that Tibet is Indian domain is absurd. Tibet can't even serve as buffer with China as there is no boundaries between Tibet and China at all. Jut because India was retarded and gave away Bangladesh doesn't mean you can expect Chinese to be retarded and give away Tibet. We are seeing the consequences of letting Bangladesh free in terms of infiltration. Chinese were simply smarter and more reasonable and understood the importance of geographical boundaries and ensured that China is surrounded by geographical barrier like Himalaya, Ocean, Siberia desert and Gobi desert and made infiltration difficult.

Tibet was a buffet state. That is historical fact not some theory. The British had enough military might to force Chinese emperor to agree to it.

Lhasa had a British resident commissioner who constantly interfered in their affairs as they did in in various Indian states.

These are all historically accurate facts. India shouldn't have allowed Tibet annexation by china.

Tibet is geographically very significant it is the third pole along with Himalaya. In upcoming water crisis it is crucial as it hold massive quantity of fresh waters.

It's an area half the size of India. Its exploration is difficult but china is finding minerals there

https://m.timesofindia.com/world/ch...ral-deposits-in-Tibet/articleshow/7053179.cms

By 2010 china found 100billion$ worth resources and most of Tibet is still unexplored.

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[IndianHawk]

Tibet has nothing, no Resources, no water. Satluj, Brahmaputra start from Tibet but over 95% water is from Himalayan tributaries. Tibet component of the rivers are dry where you can cross the river like Brahmaputra with your feet with knee deep water level at best. This is insignificant water flow and hence can control nothing.

Also, Tibet is outside Himalaya and hence India or British could never go there and have military dominance in Tibet. So, assuming that Tibet is Indian domain is absurd. Tibet can't even serve as buffer with China as there is no boundaries between Tibet and China at all. Jut because India was retarded and gave away Bangladesh doesn't mean you can expect Chinese to be retarded and give away Tibet. We are seeing the consequences of letting Bangladesh free in terms of infiltration. Chinese were simply smarter and more reasonable and understood the importance of geographical boundaries and ensured that China is surrounded by geographical barrier like Himalaya, Ocean, Siberia desert and Gobi desert and made infiltration difficult.

Infiltration from Bangladesh is problem but how will accepting 160 million rabid Hindu hating muzzies would be smart.

Muzzie are 12 % of Indian population today if Bangladesh was merged we would have 30-35% muzzie population!! Our civilization would have been doomed.

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[Chinmoy]

Really appreciate replies and also please excuse me if I have got anything wrong. I would agree with with you are saying but with a small asterix.

*My submission is that DRDO is moving more into productionisation and away from development.

Productionisation must involve development of prototypes. DRDO is doing too much productionsiation and "sales of such". DRDO (i might be wrong) is not doing development enough and too many prototypes and productionisations when it ought to be done by the selected manufacturer (who would improve and benefit).

Ultimately DRDO is not guiding the Defense Sector - it ought to be playing the father figure. Hence my other submission of listing out its entities (its prototype developers and productionisation clusters into manufacturers)

DRDO has to be having its hands and branches inside these Defense Maharatnas. It has to be clear and no question of having independent models and "chinese walls"

DRDO has to be (like a holding entity) on top of a group of large defense maharatnas listed on the stock exchange. I would label these like those already like HAL, OFBs (BDL model types). The private players can be used (off-set - contracted by these) but they must be in support of these large listed Defense Maharatnas.

One might ask how to define these Defense Maharatnas - look at the 50+ laboratories of DRDO and they can be fit into clusters.

How to staff and develop these large Defense Maharatnas - Made in India - the answer is obvious of the large and growing educated and technical and specialists. Brain drain ? Brain gain ?

Even having a listed company for exports of DRDO developed products/systems, like radars, electronic warfare systems, AEW&C systems, bridging systems, missiles, torpedoes, decoy and fire control systems (again off-set and contracted by these).

DRDO has to have specialized role - i might be wrong but its moving more towards manufacturing and productionisation and not development. Research and Development is specialized and highly technical and advanced the cream of the cream. Developing prototypes and doing the whole setup of productionisation must not be the role of DRDO. The goal of having indigenisation has to see us growing and thinking beyond DRDO but having large Defense Maharatnas.

Developing a prototype without any synergy with the manufacturer.

Private players are trying to eat the pie too much but they are not looking at indigenisation that DRDO and such Defense Maharatanas can do.

These Defense Maharatanas also ought to be two of each (to infuse competition).

Each state has a PSB !!

Announcing at least 7 (14 - two of each) Defense Maharatanas - consolidated from DRDO laboratories, OFBs, HALs, etc, etc these will boost economic activity and jobs and more. What would these Defense Maharatanas be:

Aviation Corporation
Electronics Technology Enterprise
Regional A Defense Industry Corporation (Specialised to West)
Regional B Defense Industry Corporation (Specialised to East)
Regional C Defense Industry Corporation (Specialised to North)
Shipbuilding Corporation
Aerospace Science Technology Corporation.

Perhaps add one more (make it 8 - 16)
Export Defense Corporation

A Defense Mahratanas must have large budgets and be listed on the stock exchange with a larger envelope. National security at the forefront of confidentiality and intellectual property safeguards.

Boeing and Lockheed have a DARPA.

ABC and XYZ do they have a DRDO? Does DRDO set and develop equipment with industry with foresight (excuse this question its for practical reasons only).

I dont want to say this because it is actually doing really well - our strategic missile programme is managed by DRDO from development to manufacturing. Perhaps it would be better if such a programme is delinked from DRDO. DRDO needs to be specialized at research and development only with the gurus and cream of the cream (not a few of them but many) with national interests in mind guiding the whole defence industry apparatus underneath it. I would label these Gurus in DRDO to be the extreme of intellectual and intuition of defense and research and nation building.

With DRDO on TOP like father but no productionisation from prototypes to final manufacturing at all. DRDO looking at research and development of defense.

One must not have a problem of people making money in defense. I feel the domestic defense industry many people make a lot of money including in PSU. Everyone ought to make money but not at the cost of national development. Having a good strategic structure in place would be useful.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-israel-spike-anti-tank-missiles-drdo-5796306/

India scraps Israel anti-tank missile deal after DRDO says it will deliver

Excuse my message it might be wrong - my submission also might have come by happenstance.

Always lovely to have and get constructive response from everyone here much appreciated and obliged.

Jai Hind

I could see your confusion.

Every lab designs a couple of prototype, but could they sell those?

Even TATA SED and Bharat Forge developed prototypes of ATAGS. But are those for sale?

As for Spike heading which you provided, you might have heard of Akash. It is a system developed by DRDO, but manufactured by BDL. Same is the case with MPATGM. VEM tech and BDL would take care of manufacturing part. DRDO would only develop the tech and prototype.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Tibet has nothing, no Resources, no water.

Tibet has huge reserves of lithium, silver and copper.

Jut because India was retarded and gave away Bangladesh doesn't mean you can expect Chinese to be retarded and give away Tibet.

But you are talking like the idiot leaders who gave it away.

Chinese were simply smarter and more reasonable and understood the importance of geographical boundaries and ensured that China is surrounded by geographical barrier like Himalaya, Ocean, Siberia desert and Gobi desert and made infiltration difficult.

Indeed they did. It's us who have been reciprocating friendship like idiots. China is a hostile and greedy state who will only work for its interest. They need Doklam like engagements to stay in check and cautious, not peace agreements.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

India has strong deterrence unofficially. Sooner you digest it, better for you.

Against Pakistan but not against west.

Just look at best what tonnage they go and how much fallout they have. MT range over that will be mostly dropped by bombers.

Dong Feng, minuteman, Satan are MIRV and MT capable missiles. Aso note that there is a good mixture of MIRVed and single MT warhead deployed.

100-500kT order nuclear weapons are most efficient ones for destruction.

Completely wrong. This is the same kind of nonsense as "we don't need real tests only computer simulations are enough" argument.

They never did. They tested nukes when India needed them. They aren't obsessed with west or better say they don't e have an inferiority complex like you that all your actions are defined by what west does.

Who defines what we need?
I am simply suggesting full parity with west nothing more nothing less. This is strength.

Inferiority complex is when you say west can have any technology but we can't.

India is a power of its own kind, different from east and west blocs.

A power yes. But our country is full of cowards and inferiority complex people who can't even muster courage to test ICBM.

Nobody asked to surrender. Nor India ever will. India is resilient, resistant and capable.
It doesn't mean it will start acting @$$holes pakis and nokos.

Do you know size of NoKo, economy of NoKo and now compare it with India and realize that they with all their shortcomings are openly giving middle finger to west, while we are waiting for sanctions waiver for S-400 purchase.

SLBMs is something we possess too.

One doesn't replace another. Both ICBMs and SLBMs are needed. Don't confuse one with another.

We don't even need to cross Southeast Asia.

Sure, some magical being will destroy mainland USA on our behalf. We don't need to do anything.

Just because officially don't keep it, doesn't mean reaching US mainland is any challenge for us.

Please read your statement again and realize meaning of,

oxymoron:

noun

"a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction"

Officially having Agni-6 won't make any difference in status quo.

It will make a huge difference. It will make India a world power and unofficial P6 nation.

It's not called national defense but suicide. Hostility is to be shown when there are tensions.
You can't just go to other Presidents and say them f you especially when they can "f" you big time.

Trump will shiver when Modi will tell him that we have Nukes and means of delivery system to send it. Just like he shivered when Kim Jong said the same thing.

Western perspective sees India as a potential ally because it being a "like minded" country while a potential enemy at same time it being an eastern country.

West neither sees India as an ally nor as an enemy. They see India as a week state that could be easily influenced and controlled.

We corporated with them on great projects but we also outrightly rejected all their proposals of making us their permanent partner or ally.

We never incorporated great projects with west and there is no proposal from their side to make us their permanent partner. It's only bunch of Indian journos and their imaginations.

They don't know what our mindset will be in future. Whether we'll join first world like Japan or an anti western nation like Russia/China or will emerge as an independent global power with its own block. So, they keep their policies cautious with us.

West will never accept a brown country in first world. We will never join Chinese block and we don't have courage to form a third block. So there you go.

We take advantage to draw max. trade benefits, a global range ICBM will make them tilt towards wrong message.

https://www.news18.com/news/world/u...tus-despite-plea-by-us-lawmakers-2167803.html

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/don...on-trade-war-with-india-foreign-media-2060343

Yeah so much trade benefits. We are literately overwhelmed.

Those are no longer attributes of a great power. We are more of a second tier power like France, UK, Germany and Japan with some leverage on them because of our size.

And we will always be a second tier power unless we muster courage to challenge superpowers.

At least 40 subs (15 nuclear), 50+ DDGs+FFGs, 2000 combat jets, 4 lakh tonnes naval displacement, 3 CBGs, active HLV with 100+ operational satellite fleet, $10 billions military exports, operational ICBM (Agni-5 isn't yet), $6-7 trillions nominal GDP, $1.5-2 trillions annual budget, $100 billions+ military budget, own data cloud and lot lot other things.

Even at that stage people like you will say "but... but... what will west think!!!"

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Against Pakistan but not against west.

Against west too. Out of P5, only us are capable to do unacceptable damage to them, enough to keep them away from military intervention.

Dong Feng, minuteman, Satan are MIRV and MT capable missiles. Aso note that there is a good mixture of MIRVed and single MT warhead deployed.

They will still not be used and phased out. MT warheads are a means of power projection and inefficient to use in war unless you have to strike against bunkers.

Completely wrong. This is the same kind of nonsense as "we don't need real tests only computer simu

No, it isn't. Bigger yield bombs don't have proportionally big radius of destruction is a fact. No matter whatever you write.

Who defines what we need?

Government and strategists.

I am simply suggesting full parity with west nothing more nothing less.

That's why you're stupid.

This is strength.

Strength will be something when India is far far more powerful than most other countries and won't have more than one or two competitors in every field.

ICBM doesn't make any status change for India right now. For a country capable of throwing spacecrafts to Mars, reaching any part of world isn't a problem.

Inferiority complex is when you say west can have any technology but we can't.

I didn't say India can't.
I said India can but doesn't need to irk west ATM. That's why I'm sitting so clam here.
It's you who has been jumping around hitting your head here & there.:biggrin2:

A power yes. But our country is full of cowards and inferiority complex people who can't even muster courage to test ICBM.

How do you distinguish between bravery and stupidity?

Do you know size of NoKo, economy of NoKo and now compare it with India and realize that they with all their shortcomings are openly giving middle finger to west, while we are waiting for sanctions waiver for S-400 purchase.

That's the difference of mindsets of mindless and mindful people.

They are already a screwed up country inviting their collapse. We want to rise in all dimensions and doing what we should do and what we want to do.

One doesn't replace another. Both ICBMs and SLBMs are needed. Don't confuse one with another.

Read your comment I replied to, braindead.

Sure, some magical being will destroy mainland USA on our behalf. We don't need to do anything.

You really read my comment? We don't need to cross Southeast Asia to launch SLBM to US.

Please read your statement again and realize meaning of,

oxymoron:

noun

"a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction"

The message may be oxymoron to a set of audiences who have a different set of informations and perspective while same may not be true for others.
You are an ill informed one.

It will make a huge difference. It will make India a world power and unofficial P6 nation.

1. Germany is de facto P6 country not us. P5 is more about political influence. We don't have any.
2. Matching P5 in terms of capabilities, we are already one with big defense budgets, nuclear submarines, big navies and air force, large economy and ICBM (A5) etc.. Debate here is to get a global range ICBM (A6 and Surya). They aren't beyond India's technological capabilities. Huge difference? They make no difference to India's known capabilities but posturing. Posturing hostilities to countries sitting 10,000-15,000kms away.

Trump will shiver when Modi will tell him that we have Nukes and means of delivery system to send it.

As if India couldn't do it earlier, as if US didn't know about Indian missile and launch systems or as if US can't reciprocate.

Just like he shivered when Kim Jong said the same thing.

Only idiots believe that.

West neither sees India as an ally nor as an enemy. They see India as a week state that could be easily influenced and controlled.

If it was so, West wouldn't have been having so many dissentions with India. India wouldn't have done nuclear tests or retaliated against western tariffs.

India is neither a part of anti western nor a part of pro western block.

We never incorporated great projects with west and there is no proposal from their side to make us their permanent partner. It's only bunch of Indian journos and their imaginations.

As told before, you really don't know any damn thing. Nor I'm the one going to spoonfeed you.
Google Indo US civil nuclear deal and waiver of NSG.

West will never accept a brown country in first world.

WTF? Accept? India is neither a western country nor a "brown" country. Keep your identity crisis to yourself.

West is looking for alliance, India doesn't feel like it's worthy. So, India didn't join.

We will never join Chinese block

China doesn't care about it's "block" unlike Soviet Union. China is focused towards its own interests. As for India, China sees India as a long term threat, no matter what agreement is there.

and we don't have courage to form a third block.

Third block??
For what? What's your cause of fight?? West had a mission of subjugating world with its cultural financial control to prosper itself. East block wanted to make world communist (collapsed now).
China's goal is to be powerful and prosperous. So is ours.

Third block for what?

https://www.news18.com/news/world/u...tus-despite-plea-by-us-lawmakers-2167803.html

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/don...on-trade-war-with-india-foreign-media-2060343

Yeah so much trade benefits. We are literately overwhelmed.

What are you trying to say? India is reciprocating with tariffs in trade war. I told before, India is neither very friendly, nor very hostile to west.
You want to test an ICBM for trade war??

Even at that stage people like you will say "but... but... what will west think!!!"

Are you dumb or what?

You filled entire page with "west will be afraid", "trump will shiver", "a message to west" and other similar bull$h!ts. Then, you are claiming that I'm bothered about west.

Seriously dude, you need some serious psychological therapy to calm your mind.

Why we need to test a 10k range middle finger right now? Udta teer kyu lena hai pichhwade mein? West, Russia, China and their proxies are busy trying to screw each other. Sit and enjoy the show, try to take away benefits and grow using the room.
Ye sab toh baad mein bhi hota rahega.

 

[Vijyes]

West will never accept a brown country in first world. We will never join Chinese block and we don't have courage to form a third block. So there you go.

Why bother about west accepting or not? Also, why assume that India won't join Chinese bloc? In fact, India, Russia and China have already joined hands.

Trump will shiver when Modi will tell him that we have Nukes and means of delivery system to send it. Just like he shiver

Please don't talk like this. What is there to shiver? 1 ICBM will destroy New York and 1 more will destroy Washington? Lol! Don't talk cheap things like this.

Strength will be something when India is far far more powerful than most other countries and won't have more than one or two competitors in every field.

ICBM doesn't make any status change for India right now. For a country capable of throwing spacecrafts to Mars, reaching any part of world isn't a problem.

Spacecraft to mars didn't have to have as much accuracy as ICBM. The spacecraft to Mars can afford to have several km of difference between calculated and actual orbit radius. It can also maneuver over weeks to reach the right orbit. But ICBM has to be extremely accurate to few metres. Dropping an ICBM 2-3 km off target may end up hitting wrong targets unless it is a non specific air burst warhead with intent if merely damaging civilian assets.

I didn't say India can't.
I said India can but doesn't need to irk west ATM. That's why I'm sitting so clam here.
It's you who has been jumping around hitting your head here & there.

Irking west is irrelevant. If west can have the Technology, so should India. Either west hands over their ICBM Technology to India or India must make it. Irking or not is not Indian decision. We just need Technology parity by hook or crook.

They are already a screwed up country inviting their collapse. We want to rise in all dimensions and doing what we should do and what we want to do

NoKo is mich stronger than any other country with just 2
5 crore population. Compare it with Sri Lanka and you will see how strong NoKo is. NoKo is a reasonable country and is stable enough yo not collapse.

• Germany is de facto P6 country not us. P5 is more about political influence. We don't have any.

• Matching P5 in terms of capabilities, we are already one with big defense budgets, nuclear submarines, big navies and air force, large economy and ICBM (A5) etc.. Debate here is to get a global range ICBM (A6 and Surya). They aren't beyond India's technological capabilities. Huge difference? They make no difference to India's known capabilities but posturing. Posturing hostilities to countries sitting 10,000-15,000kms away.

India has more political influence than even USA over global oil supply. You must be joking to say India has no political influence. India is having extraordinary heft and matches that of USA.

Germany is not P6. It has no defence might and is at present a vassal state of USA.

China doesn't care about it's "block" unlike Soviet Union. China is focused towards its own interests. As for India, China sees India as a long term threat, no matter what agreement is there

You are just a fanatic. China sees India as long term ally provided it stays in principle of dharma. Chinese view long term aspects in terms of culture of a country. So, the way India behaves culturally will determine how China will view long term relationship.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Against west too. Out of P5, only us are capable to do unacceptable damage to them, enough to keep them away from military intervention.

How? No ICBMs, no long range SLBMs, no strategic bombers. How will we do unacceptable damage to west?

They will still not be used and phased out. MT warheads are a means of power projection and inefficient to use in war unless you have to strike against bunkers.

Are you suggesting MT warheads will be used against puny bunkers?!!!! Seriously have you not heard of bunker buster bombs made of depleted uranium shells?!!!

MT warheads are meant for vaporizing entire cities. They are city destroyers. Something we completely lack. Small KT warheads like 150KT and 350KT are only for destroying strategic assets and small cities. Against big cities like Delhi, Mumbai they have big toys (MT)

No, it isn't. Bigger yield bombs don't have proportionally big radius of destruction is a fact. No matter whatever you write.

MT bomb can easily vaporize any size city. This is a fact. They are called city busters for a reason.

Strength will be something when India is far far more powerful than most other countries and won't have more than one or two competitors in every field.

How can India be powerful when you are suggesting that India shouldn't develop weapons of ultimate power?

ICBM doesn't make any status change for India right now.

It did for China, it did for NoKo. If India tests global range ICBM and 20MT test then India will be declared a world power by everyone. Our status will be that of a global power.

For a country capable of throwing spacecrafts to Mars, reaching any part of world isn't a problem.

Please understand difference between civilian and military technologies.

Just because Japan has success with SLVs doesn't mean that tomorrow they will start making ICBMs. Both are different platforms. Yes, having working knowledge of SLVs help in aerodynamics and other calculations but an ICBM is a different creature all together. Turning an SLV into a full functional ICBM is major effort. (read: not easy)

If we want A-6 in lets say 5 years: we must start allocating major funds towards it today.

I didn't say India can't.

No, but you did the opposite. You made ICBM project look so easy almost like a child's science fair project. Also arguments like SLV is basically ICBM with different paint scheme doesn't help either.

I said India can but doesn't need to irk west ATM.

Oh so west is our ATM now??

When did we ask for money from west? We are not Pakistan we don't need western money to run our country. We are self sufficient. Our economy is mostly driven by domestic consumption and we have strong trade relations with almost all countries on earth.

We don't have any ATM.

How do you distinguish between bravery and stupidity?

Bravery is building a strong military in face of all odds and stupidity is to wait for situation to turn sour.

That's the difference of mindsets of mindless and mindful people.

Our mindful people tested nukes in 70's and 90's. They tested Agni series upto 5 when mindless people where crying asking them to stop because of western propaganda of fake "arms race" and nonsense like "strategic balance".

Our mindful people one day will test Agni-6 and no western crybabies will stop them.

They are already a screwed up country inviting their collapse. We want to rise in all dimensions and doing what we should do and what we want to do.

They are intelligent people who made their small and weak country completely invasion proof. Where, we are still victims of Trump's mood swings.

Here is a simple defination of sovereignty.

ICBM+Thermo nuke= Full sovereignty

You really read my comment? We don't need to cross Southeast Asia to launch SLBM to US.

Oh I didn't know distance from SEA to US is only 750km...

1. Germany is de facto P6 country not us.

Forget Nukes and ICBMs, a country that has no means of survival in a full scale war, a country that is fully dependent on USA, a country that can't even control its border (go Google EU) is a de facto P6 country???

P5 is more about political influence. We don't have any

What political influence Germany has??? Please elaborate...

the only reason we don't have political influence that is worthy of our stature is because of coward behavior. We can have full political influence worldwide in a second only if we take bold and drastic steps at world stage.

1. Matching P5 in terms of capabilities, we are already one with big defense budgets, nuclear submarines, big navies and air force, large economy and ICBM (A5) etc.. Debate here is to get a global range ICBM (A6 and Surya). They aren't beyond India's technological capabilities. Huge difference? They make no difference to India's known capabilities but posturing. Posturing hostilities to countries sitting 10,000-15,000kms away.

Where does Germany fit here? you said previously that Germany is a de-facto P6 country. What capabilities from above list Germany has?


Posturing is what it takes to become a net-security provider which is essential for any global power.

As if India couldn't do it earlier, as if US didn't know about Indian missile and launch systems or as if US can't reciprocate.

Again more western prospective :blah:

As told before, you really don't know any damn thing. Nor I'm the one going to spoonfeed you.
Google Indo US civil nuclear deal and waiver of NSG.

You said we are working with west on mega projects which we aren't. So your point; null.

Now coming to NSG waiver. How did it help us in anyway in achieving our nuclear goals? We still don't have any single USA reactor in India. There is no benefit to our nuclear weapons program. Do we have permeate seat in NSG?

it only made things worse because now we have half of our reactors under International watch. After NSG deal we went backwards. Because of this horrible deal Pakistan has more Nukes then India.

Indo-US nuke deal was a useless sovereignty selling deal, all thanks to shortsightedness of UPA.

WTF? Accept? India is neither a western country nor a "brown" country. Keep your identity crisis to yourself.

You do know Racism is very strong in west right? They form all their foreign policy based on us vs them mindset. this is why Ukraine (lower GDP) is a member of EU where Turkey (higher GDP) isn't.

China doesn't care about it's "block" unlike Soviet Union. China is focused towards its own interests. As for India, China sees India as a long term threat, no matter what agreement is there.

China now has a block. Its China-Russia-NoKo-Pak-Eurasians

They are the modern version of Axis power where US-EU-Aus-Japan are allied powers.

Third block??

With two blocks above there is still room for third block. I may propose.

India-Arabs/Isralies-S.Asians-L.Americans block

Third block for what?

Power

And safety from other two blocks.

You want to test an ICBM for trade war??

No, ICBM test is for national security.

West, Russia, China and their proxies are busy trying to screw each other. Sit and enjoy the show, try to take away benefits and grow using the room.
Ye sab toh baad mein bhi hota rahega.

There is no baad mein in war preparedness. its all today and right now.

 

[Vijyes]

MT bomb can easily vaporize any size city. This is a fact. They are called city busters for a reason

This is not true. Just like Mother of all bombs is not an useful bomb (it weighs 11ton), similarly, MT bombs are not city busters. If you can't understand the physics behind nuclear bomb damage, don't talk nonsense and spread fake news. It is people like you who spread fake news that made it to be called as city busters via continual propaganda and fake news

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

This is not true. Just like Mother of all bombs is not an useful bomb (it weighs 11ton), similarly, MT bombs are not city busters. If you can't understand the physics behind nuclear bomb damage, don't talk nonsense and spread fake news. It is people like you who spread fake news that made it to be called as city busters via continual propaganda and fake news

MT bombs are city busters. Do I need to show you map? BTW theories like 200 nukes needed to destroy Delhi is fake news and propaganda.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Why bother about west accepting or not? Also, why assume that India won't join Chinese bloc? In fact, India, Russia and China have already joined hands.

There are two groups JAI (Japan, America, India) and RIC (Russia, India, China).
India has cordial as well as tensed instances of relations with both blocks.

Spacecraft to mars didn't have to have as much accuracy as ICBM. The spacecraft to Mars can afford to have several km of difference between calculated and actual orbit radius. It can also maneuver over weeks to reach the right orbit. But ICBM has to be extremely accurate to few metres. Dropping an ICBM 2-3 km off target may end up hitting wrong targets unless it is a non specific air burst warhead with intent if merely damaging civilian assets.

Mars mission example is only for demonstrating range. Most of tech is validated already. Entire is if we consider scaling up demonstrated projects.

Accuracy of missile is determined by superior navigation, miniaturized computer systems to actuate movements of warheads and seekers. India's Agni-3 is world's most accurate IRBM.
Having ICBM isn't a technological challenge.

Irking west is irrelevant. If west can have the Technology, so should India. Either west hands over their ICBM Technology to India or India must make it. Irking or not is not Indian decision. We just need Technology parity by hook or crook.

India doesn't need to posture hostile to west unnecessarily. There will be a time when India will show middle finger to west. Time isn't there yet.

NoKo is mich stronger than any other country with just 2
5 crore population.

But NoKo is standing against NATO here who accounts for 40% of world's military spending.

Compare it with Sri Lanka and you will see how strong NoKo is. NoKo is a reasonable country and is stable enough yo not collapse.

Sri Lanka is by a mile more stable country than NoKo. If military is guaranter of sustainability, Soviet Union wouldn't have collapsed.
NoKo is just floating itself as proxy of Russia and China.

India has more political influence than even USA over global oil supply.

No, India is third after US & Russia. Russia is an alternative and US controls ME.

India is de facto sole regional power of Indian Ocean Region almost unchallenged from South Indian Ocean, Oceania, Southeast Asia, Indian Subcontinent, Eastern African bank, gulf and middle east.

Almost because US Navy is only one we can't deter.

Germany is not P6. It has no defence might and is at present a vassal state of USA.

Ever heard of P5+1?
Even UK is a vassal state of USA.

You are just a fanatic.

No, it's you. You are loyally sucking up to your commie masters after getting so many slaps.
When I leave argument, doesn't mean I can't. But accept that you're gone case. You keep on writing same things over & over like a bigot.

China sees India as long term ally

Ghanta!!
China risked relationship with a country against which it has a surplus of $50 billions for a terrorist Azhar. Reflects how much love is there.
Same Nehruvian policy of appeasing commies and even then blame yourself for "not doing enough".

provided it stays in principle of dharma.

China isn't a dharmic country intelligent breed.
Even if it would become, Dharma and culture doesn't push for alliance, interests do. China has no reason to let India emerge.
Anyone who believes that China is willing to do any favors to India that even on grounds of culture, is an idiot of top order.

Chinese view long term aspects in terms of culture of a country.

CCP itself has destroyed cultural heritage of China. It has nothing to do with what culture anyone is.
Even recently, my cousin was to Sichuan. CCP passed a new law to bury corpses directly instead of using wooden coffins. So that wood could be used for other purposes.
People were forced and checked for compliance by PLA. There are groups who used to deliever wooden corpses. All their homes were raided.

How? No ICBMs, no long range SLBMs, no strategic bombers. How will we do unacceptable damage to west?

India has all of them. Showcases them when needed only. India is more focused on its backyard right now. And India is not most formidable force in Indian Ocean itself. Till now, it was only US. Once, China has base in Djibouti, we'll have to face them too.

Are you suggesting MT warheads will be used against puny bunkers?!!!! Seriously have you not heard of bunker buster

Proved that you know nothing.
Do you even know what kind of bunkers I'm talking about? Do you know what an NBC bunker is?

MT warheads are meant for vaporizing entire cities. They are city destroyers.

Even a 500kT bomb is enough to kill entire population of a region and its proximity. Both burning and vaporizing lead to death.

I'll choose what's cheap. MT bombs are means of power projection only.

How can India be powerful when you are suggesting that India shouldn't develop weapons of ultimate power?

How funny that you believe that ICBM is weapon of ultimate power. Funnier you believe that I suggested "not to develop it". Funniest you believe India hasn't and isn't developing same.

Against big cities like Delhi, Mumbai they have big toys (MT

Blast radius of even empty bombs isn't sufficient to destroy massive cities like Delhi & Mumbai. Over that, Indian homes are hardened usually, made of concrete and not wood.

It did for China,

No, China did it with nukes, UNSC seat and large armed forces. Fact is that them as ROC played a significant role in WW2.

ICBM was just a feather in cap.

it did for NoKo.

It didn't. NoKo wasn't and won't ever be a great power. It's still a weak country being played as proxy of China.

The one who belives NoKo has some leverage on geopolitics is the like of Kim Jong Un.

If India tests global range ICBM and 20MT test then India will be declared a world power by everyone.

No, it won't be. It will be seen as a crazy state. India will be a global power with massive economy and huge armed forces. Everything else is secondary.

Just because Japan has success with SLVs doesn't mean that tomorrow they will start making ICBMs.

Well yes, Japan can. Japan is a demilatrized great power.

Both are different platforms. Yes, having working knowledge of SLVs help in aerodynamics and other calculations but an ICBM is a different creature all together. Turning an SLV into a full functional ICBM is major effort. (read: not easy)

Well, AFA I remember, it was you who was equating ballistic missile systems to SLVs and strongly advocating for Pakistan's chances.
I'm saying what I said then again. Difference between ICBM anf SLV besides trajectory is number of stages and erection time.
SSLV is enough is demonstrate what is difficult for India.

If we want A-6 in lets say 5 years: we must start allocating major funds towards it today.

We delievered Agni-5 in 3 years. Agni-6 will take even shorter development span.

As for funds, we had done most things including calculations and ready with design of A6 on 2017. The mission was postponed as need wasn't felt.

No, but you did the opposite. You made ICBM project look so easy almost like a child's science fair project. Also arguments like SLV is basically ICBM with different paint scheme doesn't help either.

I still say same. However, you don't even know basics and said I'm talking about a paint scheme.

Oh so west is our ATM now??

When did we ask for money from west? We are not Pakistan we don't need western money to run our country. We are self sufficient. Our economy is mostly driven by domestic consumption and we have strong trade relations with almost all countries on earth.

We don't have any ATM.

ATM = At The Moment

Screen se bahar nikalke marunga.

Oh I didn't know distance from SEA to US is only 750km...

Or better say you didn't know what's the range of SLBMs India has.

Bravery is building a strong military in face of all odds and stupidity is to wait for situation to turn sour.

Doing things in panic is far more dangerous. Collecting information and pragmatically handling situation.

Taking risks is brave only when favorable outcome of risk is far more advantageous than consequence of it.

As told before, there must be something inside the box before thinking out of the box.

The box resting in your skull is as empty as that Kim Jong's.
I bet you didn't even bother to open the URL.

Our mindful people tested nukes in 70's and 90's. They tested Agni series upto 5 when mindless people where crying asking them to stop because of western propaganda of fake "arms race" and nonsense like "strategic balance".

Our mindful people one day will test Agni-6 and no western crybabies will stop them.

They tested it when was needed and shaped required posture only.

They will test Agni-6 when needed only. If it's not tested in an environment of hostility with west but just power projection, they will issue a responsible statement for same. Because they are mindful unlike you.

They won't ever name islands London or Washington before bombing them.

They are intelligent people who made their small and weak country completely invasion proof.

Where, we are still victims of Trump's mood swings.

We make far bigger difference to Yanks than NoKo ever will.

Here is a simple defination of sovereignty.

ICBM+Thermo nuke= Full sovereignty

Soviets don't agree with you. Even Pakistanis keep getting sovereignty raped regularly even after having nukes.

Forget Nukes and ICBMs, a country that has no means of survival in a full scale war, a country that is fully dependent on USA, a country that can't even control its border (go Google EU) is a de facto P6 country???

P5+1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What political influence Germany has??? Please elaborate...

Germany is strongest economy of Europe and dictates its financial shift. It's second to US interms of influence.
Germany is economic superpower of Europe while France is militarily.

the only reason we don't have political influence that is worthy of our stature is because of coward behavior.

The only reason is antipathy of P5 towards us. Not our fault.

We can have full political influence worldwide in a second only if we take bold and drastic steps at world stage.

We need money for it. Nominal GDP needs needs to form at least 10% of world if we really have to do wonders.

Posturing is what it takes to become a net-security provider which is essential for any global power.

Posturing is done towards other countries. Agni-6 doesn't serve any purpose to posture against countries we want to.

Again more western prospective :blah:

It's western perspective? How weak your english is?

You said we are working with west on mega projects which we aren't. So your point; null.

I gave two, there are a lot.

Now coming to NSG waiver. How did it help us in anyway in achieving our nuclear goals? We still don't have any single USA reactor in India.

NSG was supposed to help India getting uninterrupted supply of nuclear material and spares.
Ever heard of ITER.

it only made things worse because now we have half of our reactors under International watch.

Those are not for generating bombs either.

After NSG deal we went backwards.

India doesn't use all of its reactors to produce nukes. It has targets to produce 30% of its energy by nuclear fuel.

Indo-US nuke deal was a useless sovereignty selling deal, all thanks to shortsightedness of UPA.

Get me the details of "sovereignty selling".

You do know Racism is very strong in west right?

I also know that their racism has nothing to do with their foreign policy. They have allies belonging to different races.
Probably you don't.
EU has those key allies.

They form all their foreign policy based on us vs them mindset. this is why Ukraine (lower GDP) is a member of EU where Turkey (higher GDP) isn't.

Ukraine is a part of EU?

China now has a block. Its China-Russia-NoKo-Pak-Eurasians

That block doesn't fight as doesn't have any aim. These are only Sino Russian attempts to push away countries from Western influence anf establish their own by connectivity projects.
Besides, Russia, China and their suicidal friend NoKo, no one will fight.

With two blocks above there is still room for third block. I may propose.

LOL, existence of two leaves room for third.

Power

Other two blocks offer better.

And safety from other two blocks.

India-Arabs/Isralies-S.Asians-L.Americans block

Why the hell will they break their existing alliances to form a new aimless one? Who will join India's block? Bhutan?

No, ICBM test is for national security.

Testing it at right occasion is a great factor as well.

There is no baad mein in war preparedness. its all today and right now.

We are preparing expanding our navy and strategic forces which is real preparedness. If I'm at a brink of war with A, I won't prepare with B. Tensions period decide what to do.

 

[IndianHawk]

Against Pakistan but not against west.


Dong Feng, minuteman, Satan are MIRV and MT capable missiles. Aso note that there is a good mixture of MIRVed and single MT warhead deployed.


Completely wrong. This is the same kind of nonsense as "we don't need real tests only computer simulations are enough" argument.


Who defines what we need?
I am simply suggesting full parity with west nothing more nothing less. This is strength.

Inferiority complex is when you say west can have any technology but we can't.


A power yes. But our country is full of cowards and inferiority complex people who can't even muster courage to test ICBM.


Do you know size of NoKo, economy of NoKo and now compare it with India and realize that they with all their shortcomings are openly giving middle finger to west, while we are waiting for sanctions waiver for S-400 purchase.


One doesn't replace another. Both ICBMs and SLBMs are needed. Don't confuse one with another.


Sure, some magical being will destroy mainland USA on our behalf. We don't need to do anything.


Please read your statement again and realize meaning of,

oxymoron:

noun

"a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction"



It will make a huge difference. It will make India a world power and unofficial P6 nation.


Trump will shiver when Modi will tell him that we have Nukes and means of delivery system to send it. Just like he shivered when Kim Jong said the same thing.


West neither sees India as an ally nor as an enemy. They see India as a week state that could be easily influenced and controlled.


We never incorporated great projects with west and there is no proposal from their side to make us their permanent partner. It's only bunch of Indian journos and their imaginations.


West will never accept a brown country in first world. We will never join Chinese block and we don't have courage to form a third block. So there you go.



https://www.news18.com/news/world/u...tus-despite-plea-by-us-lawmakers-2167803.html

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/don...on-trade-war-with-india-foreign-media-2060343

Yeah so much trade benefits. We are literately overwhelmed.


And we will always be a second tier power unless we muster courage to challenge superpowers.



Even at that stage people like you will say "but... but... what will west think!!!"

Superpowers today are economic not military. Russia still has more potent military than china with much better airforce and many more nuke subs and thousands of nukes. .

Yet it is china which is the next contender of superpower status against USA. Because china has a huge economy despite having a mostly obsolete military.

Same applies to us. We must leverage western developed markets to grow our economy. Military will keep rising with it.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[IndianHawk]

How? No ICBMs, no long range SLBMs, no strategic bombers. How will we do unacceptable damage to west?


Are you suggesting MT warheads will be used against puny bunkers?!!!! Seriously have you not heard of bunker buster bombs made of depleted uranium shells?!!!

MT warheads are meant for vaporizing entire cities. They are city destroyers. Something we completely lack. Small KT warheads like 150KT and 350KT are only for destroying strategic assets and small cities. Against big cities like Delhi, Mumbai they have big toys (MT)



MT bomb can easily vaporize any size city. This is a fact. They are called city busters for a reason.


How can India be powerful when you are suggesting that India shouldn't develop weapons of ultimate power?


It did for China, it did for NoKo. If India tests global range ICBM and 20MT test then India will be declared a world power by everyone. Our status will be that of a global power.


Please understand difference between civilian and military technologies.

Just because Japan has success with SLVs doesn't mean that tomorrow they will start making ICBMs. Both are different platforms. Yes, having working knowledge of SLVs help in aerodynamics and other calculations but an ICBM is a different creature all together. Turning an SLV into a full functional ICBM is major effort. (read: not easy)

If we want A-6 in lets say 5 years: we must start allocating major funds towards it today.


No, but you did the opposite. You made ICBM project look so easy almost like a child's science fair project. Also arguments like SLV is basically ICBM with different paint scheme doesn't help either.


Oh so west is our ATM now??

When did we ask for money from west? We are not Pakistan we don't need western money to run our country. We are self sufficient. Our economy is mostly driven by domestic consumption and we have strong trade relations with almost all countries on earth.

We don't have any ATM.



Bravery is building a strong military in face of all odds and stupidity is to wait for situation to turn sour.

Our mindful people tested nukes in 70's and 90's. They tested Agni series upto 5 when mindless people where crying asking them to stop because of western propaganda of fake "arms race" and nonsense like "strategic balance".

Our mindful people one day will test Agni-6 and no western crybabies will stop them.


They are intelligent people who made their small and weak country completely invasion proof. Where, we are still victims of Trump's mood swings.

Here is a simple defination of sovereignty.

ICBM+Thermo nuke= Full sovereignty



Oh I didn't know distance from SEA to US is only 750km...


Forget Nukes and ICBMs, a country that has no means of survival in a full scale war, a country that is fully dependent on USA, a country that can't even control its border (go Google EU) is a de facto P6 country???


What political influence Germany has??? Please elaborate...

the only reason we don't have political influence that is worthy of our stature is because of coward behavior. We can have full political influence worldwide in a second only if we take bold and drastic steps at world stage.


Where does Germany fit here? you said previously that Germany is a de-facto P6 country. What capabilities from above list Germany has?


Posturing is what it takes to become a net-security provider which is essential for any global power.


Again more western prospective :blah:


You said we are working with west on mega projects which we aren't. So your point; null.

Now coming to NSG waiver. How did it help us in anyway in achieving our nuclear goals? We still don't have any single USA reactor in India. There is no benefit to our nuclear weapons program. Do we have permeate seat in NSG?

it only made things worse because now we have half of our reactors under International watch. After NSG deal we went backwards. Because of this horrible deal Pakistan has more Nukes then India.

Indo-US nuke deal was a useless sovereignty selling deal, all thanks to shortsightedness of UPA.



You do know Racism is very strong in west right? They form all their foreign policy based on us vs them mindset. this is why Ukraine (lower GDP) is a member of EU where Turkey (higher GDP) isn't.



China now has a block. Its China-Russia-NoKo-Pak-Eurasians

They are the modern version of Axis power where US-EU-Aus-Japan are allied powers.


With two blocks above there is still room for third block. I may propose.

India-Arabs/Isralies-S.Asians-L.Americans block


Power

And safety from other two blocks.


No, ICBM test is for national security.


There is no baad mein in war preparedness. its all today and right now.

A gslv is a global ICBM . It's just not operationalized with mated warhead.

All it needs is Agni V carbon composite shield for reentry and it can deliver warhead anywhere on this small planet. That is why western nation don't doubt India ICBM capabilities.

Btw Agni 6 is already in development as has been stated by DRDO before.

Also k4 has 3500km range and k5 will be 6000km + that can put target on us cities while being far away from usa shore.

Anyway I strongly suspect that our current money is going to operational Agni V as fast as possible so that Chinese problem is solved .


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[aditya10r]

Koi popcorn Lao
Mast discussion chal raha hai.
_________________________________________

 

[Vijyes]

Mars mission example is only for demonstrating range. Most of tech is validated already. Entire is if we consider scaling up demonstrated projects.

Accuracy of missile is determined by superior navigation, miniaturized computer systems to actuate movements of warheads and seekers. India's Agni-3 is world's most accurate IRBM.
Having ICBM isn't a technolog

It is a Technology challenge. For God's sake, don't assume Technology is simple. Technology is complex and R&D has extreme uncertainty. If we have not tested a Technology means there is uncertainty.

India doesn't need to posture hostile to west unnecessarily. There will be a time when India will show middle finger to west. Time isn't there yet

It is not posturing but testing. None can help if anyone misunderstands.

Sri Lanka is by a mile more stable country than NoKo. If military is guaranter of sustainability, Soviet Union wouldn't have collapsed.
NoKo is just floating itself as proxy of Russia and China.

No, NoKo is more stable. Its people are loyal to Kim and have extremely strong hatred against USA for ruining them in 1950s. Sri Lanka always had tensions.

No, India is third after US & Russia. Russia is an alternative and US controls ME.

India is de facto sole regional power of Indian Ocean Region almost unchallenged from South Indian Ocean, Oceania, Southeast Asia, Indian Subcontinent, Eastern African bank, gulf and middle east.

Almost because US Navy is only one we can't deter.

USA navy also is no match near Indian territory. Indian missile systems, resupply and air support will tilt the balance.

US doesn't control ME. Countries like Saudis have their own ways regardless of USA. In fact, US is banned from importing oil beyond a set limit by Saudis. What control is this? ME countries have their independence but just pays USA for military service but at the terms of Arabs.

China isn't a dharmic country intelligent breed.
Even if it would become, Dharma and culture doesn't push for alliance, interests do. China has no reason to let India emerge.
Anyone who believes that China is willing to do any favors to India that even on grounds of culture, is an idiot of top order.

China won't do favours on ground of culture. But China will not consider India as a threat as long as India shows strength in its resolve to implement dharma.

CCP itself has destroyed cultural heritage of China. It has nothing to do with what culture anyone is.
Even recently, my cousin was to Sichuan. CCP passed a new law to bury corpses directly instead of using wooden coffins. So that wood could be used for other purposes.
People were forced and checked for compliance by PLA. There are groups who used to deliever wooden corpses. All their homes were raided.

I am speaking of intention, not tradition. CCP doesn't destroy values but destroys tradition which it considers as arbitrary and archaic.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

It is a Technology challenge. For God's sake, don't assume Technology is simple. Technology is complex and R&D has extreme uncertainty. If we have not tested a Technology means there is uncertainty.

I'm repeatedly saying same thing. List up the components. We got all the building blocks. We have even demonstrated most of them in other experiments.

It is not posturing but testing. None can help if anyone misunderstands.

But it really has to be taken care of how others will react. We most certainly don't need to intensify tensions with west at this stage.

No, NoKo is more stable.

Noko is police state like USSR. Whatever happens inside isn't told to world.

Unlike us where every negative news is raked up around country and world, communist states have a common characteristic of hiding faultlines to show themselves bright.

Sri Lanka is far more prosperous and stable country.

USA navy also is no match near Indian territory. Indian missile systems, resupply and air support will tilt the balance.

Doesn't apply on Indian Ocean Region which isn't in immediate proximity of India.

No one could challenge Indian Navy in Indian Ocean unless stationed there. Americans have bases here and can deploy over 24 CBGs. We can't deter even one of them.

US doesn't control ME. Countries like Saudis have their own ways regardless of USA. In fact, US is banned from importing oil beyond a set limit by Saudis. What control is this? ME countries have their independence but just pays USA for military service but at the terms of Arabs.

What kind of control you want in modern era? Colonialism?
US charges them very high for drilling their oil. Thereafter, petrodollar agreement comes that helps US to carry out sabotages on oil dependent countries by manipulating dollar.

But China will not consider India as a threat as long as India shows strength in its resolve to implement dharma.

China isn't dreaming of some great kind of spiritual civilization. It's a landmass controlled by a bunch of old people for which China and Chinese people are assets what they use to be more powerful.

I am speaking of intention, not tradition. CCP doesn't destroy values but destroys tradition which it considers as arbitrary and archaic.

If you knew the difference between "ethics" and "values", you wouldn't have commented about "traditions" here.

 

[porky_kicker]

.......................................

 

[porky_kicker]

....................................

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

I'm repeatedly saying same thing. List up the components. We got all the building blocks. We have even demonstrated most of them in other experiments.

But it really has to be taken care of how others will react. We most certainly don't need to intensify tensions with west at this stage.

Noko is police state like USSR. Whatever happens inside isn't told to world.

Unlike us where every negative news is raked up around country and world, communist states have a common characteristic of hiding faultlines to show themselves bright.

Sri Lanka is far more prosperous and stable country.

Doesn't apply on Indian Ocean Region which isn't in immediate proximity of India.

No one could challenge Indian Navy in Indian Ocean unless stationed there. Americans have bases here and can deploy over 24 CBGs. We can't deter even one of them.

What kind of control you want in modern era? Colonialism?
US charges them very high for drilling their oil. Thereafter, petrodollar agreement comes that helps US to carry out sabotages on oil dependent countries by manipulating dollar.

China isn't dreaming of some great kind of spiritual civilization. It's a landmass controlled by a bunch of old people for which China and Chinese people are assets what they use to be more powerful.

If you knew the difference between "ethics" and "values", you wouldn't have commented about "traditions" here.

Every country is really a safe space to maximize the host native populations evolutionary survival.

China is doing a better job than us in that regard as it is eliminating systemically all foreign parasites such as ideologies of islam,etc.spiritualism is overrated.