DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Bhadra]

Question...is the additional 3 tonnes an insurmountable problem?

If DRDO want this system to be bought in large numbers then it is.

Dies it create a major problem practically?

It is a towed gun.
Yes. Three ton more means two Maruti Gypsies weight more to tow and move.
Tree ton more is a functional problem for deserts, mountains, obstacle ridden rivernies - bacha hi kya hai aur.

Isn’t the additional range a reasonable trade off?

No. If it is able to achieve 40+ km it is sufficient. Why 48 when other 155 guns will not tango with it at 48km?

Even if a lower weight is preferred, would it not make sense to try for that incrementally while ordering in batches?

150 have been considered and ordered / being ordered. But if you want to sell 1500 or 2000, problems must be sorted out.

Equipment must pass through progressive developmental phases.
So develop ATAGS Stage-II

Cost - cost oCf ₹3,364.78 crore (US$470 million) much more than Elbit Klyani ATIHOS. ??.

 

[Indrajit]

If DRDO want this system to be bought in large numbers then it is.


It is a towed gun.
Yes. Three ton more means two Maruti Gypsies weight more to tow and move.
Tree ton more is a functional problem for deserts, mountains, obstacle ridden rivernies - bacha hi kya hai aur.II.

While what you say is correct, I still don’t know if that’s an insurmountable problem . We have to tow 14-15 tons anyways, does the Additional 3 tons require different vehicles or only additional stress....and I didn’t quite understand your point on additional range not being required, wouldn’t that be a good thing to have 20% more range than any other gun out there?

I agree with an ATAGS - 2 but that should come in due course, no company in the world can work like this, constantly making changes while not getting enough or no return on investment.

 

[Indrajit]

Cost - cost oCf ₹3,364.78 crore (US$470 million) much more than Elbit Klyani ATIHOS. ??.

Cost is an valid argument but only to a point, the two systems being compared are not otherwise equal with the ATAGS being the superior gun. Secondly, if we allow, most foreign companies will Undercut local ones to remove competition. Other than the point that domestic companies must always be given preference ,including some cost addition if necessary. The money is paid and used within the country.

Having said that, the important point is to know how Bharat Forge explains the cost difference between the two guns they are involved with.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

You are interested in that then find out and I will also screw him.

Why you will screw anybody?
This is discussion turned into debate.
No screwing or hammering please.
This ATAGS gun was developed by the coordination of DRDO with Indian industries in collaboration with INDIAN ARMY.
This itself is established, So you want to say ultimately ARMY WORDS WERE NOT LISTENED.

 

[Bhadra]

While what you say is correct, I still don’t know if that’s an insurmountable problem .

Good. Then sumount it.

We have to tow 14-15 tons anyways, does the Additional 3 tons require different vehicles or only additional stress...

Other guns are 12 tens and ATAGS is 15 tons. Additional 3 tons will require both.

and I didn’t quite understand your point on additional range not being required, wouldn’t that be a good thing to have 20% more range than any other gun out there?

aditional rage - is it coming free ? The answer is No. In fact this additional range dilema and DRDO desire to pull a rabbit out of hat has created problems. It is lead to additional chamber capacity, more barrel, mount and recoil weight. This additional range is at the additional cost of charge, logistics and firing.

Desired range of guns are required as per desired / stated "Area of Influence" which appears to be have been at 40 km. No problem with 48 km provided it does not come with additional cost and weight.

I agree with an ATAGS - 2 but that should come in due course, no company in the world can work like this, constantly making changes while not getting enough or no return on investment.

150 have been ordered. If any foreign company gets an order of 150, its "balle balle" for them but Shypa for ARDL / DRDO and some others.

First deliver 150. Let those fire 48 km into Pakistan destroy a few cities like Balakot , establish its credibility and then take orders for another 200. That is how in happens the word over. F-35 are not ordered in hundreds but in 16 -18 numbers at one time. Then they fly those, tell industry to rectify faults and then order 20 more.

Fine?

 

[Bhadra]

General Idea What Indian Artillery can do with 48 km range of ATAGS. But would that ever be asked to do it? That is the question.
Firing 48 Km without further influencing the target is pure attrition warfare a la Balakot. Something like Iran and Iraq banging each other without any benefis but paying the Americans.

 

[Bhadra]

155 mm guns have greater weight than 130 mm guns. 130 mm guns have greater weight than 105 mm ones and so on. Also 155 mm L52 guns will weigh more than L45 and L39 guns. Higher range and performance always had a weight penalty for artillery.
This time India is ahead of the curve - something some people cannot comprehend.

Bole To ... ??? Kuchh samajha nahin...........

 

[Bhadra]

Cost is an valid argument but only to a point, the two systems being compared are not otherwise equal with the ATAGS being the superior gun.

Superior in what ? what is the added value? Will it fire a mini nuc miniaturised for 155mm and has DRDO done that? Are they giving it to Indian Army ??

Secondly, if we allow, most foreign companies will Undercut local ones to remove competition. Other than the point that domestic companies must always be given preference ,including some cost addition if necessary. The money is paid and used within the country.

Argue that with the govt of India and CAG who laid down guidelines and procedures for financial system of the Country. MoD has a elaborate DDP. If a General does what you asking for, he certainly will be spending rest of his life in Tihar jail.

Having said that, the important point is to know how Bharat Forge explains the cost difference between the two guns they are involved with.

Why should they? They are engaged in lawful business. period.

 

[Bhadra]

Why you will screw anybody?

Screwing is the basic human instinct - in fact the most fundamental - perpetuation of self.

This is discussion turned into debate.

No Sir, it is a discussion. I am not debating.

No screwing or hammering please.

This ATAGS gun was developed by the coordination of DRDO with Indian industries in collaboration with INDIAN ARMY.
This itself is established, So you want to say ultimately ARMY WORDS WERE NOT LISTENED.

I never said that. Indian Army could also be at fault. The idea is to rectify.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

My friend this discussion of imported vs Indian is a fruitless discussion.

Why?

Because all weapons we use are of Western origin. Means West did it before India. This also means that West has a technological edge. So anybody receiving latest weapons from West can gain an edge over India if India does not possess similar weapons.

This puts India in a uniquely difficult position. That is India's local R&D and defence industries MUST produce weapons which match best in the world. Merely producing something is not good enough.

A combination of import, collaboration, and indigenous R&D is needed to keep the sword's edge sharp.

I think current government is doing the right thing.

The point that matters is quality * Quantity. Without quantity, quality is useless unless you have some superman type superheroes or some star killer superweapon. The difference between quality is generally minimal and the wuantity is what plays the biggest role

Hindustan Aeronautics is transitioning to locally developed products from screw driver assembly. It was not easy as all HAL wants to do is screw driver jobs. Real value addition is foreign to our PSUs. But a combination of push and morale boost has worked to improve the working of defence PSUs.

Same is the story of other PSUs. The defence industry ecosystem has improved significantly under current government if you analyze value added. Even HAL's value added is significantly more as imports are replaced.

Again, DRDO is the only one which develops. PSU is here to do manufacturing, not R&D. DRDO was sabotaged by congress and hence did not build enough weapons

Dhanush has happened due to maturing of India's engineering industry. Same for ATAGS.
BUT that is not the case in every field. In fact India is still seriously lagging in Aviation despite some success in LCA Tejas. I use "some" as still major components are imported.
Wherever India can build, MOD is giving preference to Indian companies.

However MOD should have a reasonable expectation. Too much hopium can cause reverses in the battlefield. MOD needs to see what is possible and what is to be imported.

In fact Rafale deal was done with 50% offsets, intentionally to build an Aviation ecosystem in India. While Rafale is imported, it brings many technological benefits in terms of capability of Indian industry.

India makes Su30 indigenously. It has lot of advanced technology with it even in aviation. Don't underestimate. Also, in areas where there is enough technology, importing is a crime, especially in artillery, ATGM etc

Why is Dhanush costlier when there is no ToT cost, not much development cost ?

Dhanush manufacturing needs a factory to be set up and R&D to be done. This cost is recovered by adding that cost to the number of guns made. A big WW2 type factory can make 10000 guns or more a year and if such factory is made, the cost will come to 1% of what it is now.

The last thing I ever want is lecture on strategic and Defense preparedness issues. Let that be decided by those responsible for it.

Then the forum has to be shut down as everything is someone else's job

Soldiers job is to ensure safety, security and integrity of the borders and protect national sovereignty. They need basic wherewithal for it. Period.

Then the soldiers must develop it themselves, not ask for others to contribute via tax or other means. If you want it to be collective responsibility, then don't talk like this

Boss India does not exist in an island devoid of any outside contact. India has something called "foreign relations". India has powerful countries as friends today.

What is the friendship based on? What is the real reason behind sudden new friendships?

Because weapons are tools, people are not?
Weapons don't have a question of allegiance. People do. That's why human resources are developed assiduously while tools can be imported.

Weapons also need to be repaired and replaced. So, it also has allegiance. The design and IPR is with someone else and that is the problem

In spite of telling them them that 68 ton tank is a no go on our western borders, DRDO and OFB would just not budge. Our bridges, engineering equipment is largely 45 ton class or a few 60 ton class. 68 ton tank is not workable.

Also, DRDO was told to make it 4man crew, add various accessory like mineplough despite DRDO protesting that it is impossible to make 60ton tank with such extra equipment. So, it is a matter f giving impossible specifications to sabotage

What is the guarantee steel prices will not drop or forging will not become less expensive or the labour cost will not stabilize. So what is this "economy of Scale" hungama?

Economy of scale is about manufacturing enmasse. It reduces transportation cost, fuel cost, labour cost, maintenance cost etc drastically. Due to the fact that materials and equipment keep getting deteriorated due to rusting, weather etc, doing things fast will prevent the maintenance cost

OFB should / can obtain reduction in cost of Dhanus by other measures that form part of Internal measures such as specialization of labor, more integrated technology, modern kitting and tooling, boost production volumes. lower cost of capital ( which OFB does not have to care for) spreading internal function costs, good accounting, information technology, operational efficiencies and synergies. Mergerr and acquisitions between OFBs can also give cost reduction, boost production and reduce costs.

There is no other way. Order 2000 guns and cost will be about 20% as much per gun as it costs for 100

If Israeli gun is fully produced here with technology transfer, it is our gun only. Had we imported this gun from Israel , concern would have been genuine since this is going to be produced here it's a desi gun.

No, there is no TOT for barrel. Moreover, India already has technology and does not need any TOT.

Who ran the Muslim rule in India? Who were the scholars of Persian in India? All mercinary DRDO type Brahmins .. were not they ?
Who ran British rule in India ? Who were the English educated Babus ? DRDO type Brahmin and educated Babus, all right !!

Muslims ruled under mullahs, not Brahmans. Brahmans were disrespected by people who converted to Buddhism and eventually surrendered & converted due to cowardice. Kshatriyas would kill Brahmans who would give good advice, calling it as insults or rebellion. These kind of sabotage led to the problem, not the wise people helping evil ones

 

[Indrajit]

Why should they? They are engaged in lawful business. period.

They should be asked what the difference is between the two guns that they are in charge of producing that one is substantially cheaper than the other. Explanation is warranted. anyone should be interested in knowing why a completely Indian platform is somehow more expensive than a foreign one, apart from the obvious difference in range and weight etc which can be factored in.

 

[Bhadra]

The point that matters is quality * Quantity. Without quantity, quality is useless unless you have some superman type superheroes or some star killer superweapon. The difference between quality is generally minimal and the wuantity is what plays the biggest role

Who defines quality? Who will ditermine quality? User or maker ?

Again, DRDO is the only one which develops. PSU is here to do manufacturing, not R&D. DRDO was sabotaged by congress and hence did not build enough weapons

Very loaded statement.

Dhanush manufacturing needs a factory to be set up and R&D to be done. This cost is recovered by adding that cost to the number of guns made. A big WW2 type factory can make 10000 guns or more a year and if such factory is made, the cost will come to 1% of what it is now.

Then do it.
You already have 41 factories and the number is increasing.

Then the forum has to be shut down as everything is someone else's job

Certainly. Forum is meant for discussion. Do it - no one has stopped you.
But if DRDO starts laying down strategy and tactics - that is not their job.
If Army starts running scientific labs and do research - that is not their job.

Then the soldiers must develop it themselves, not ask for others to contribute via tax or other means. If you want it to be collective responsibility, then don't talk like this

They can do it and they are doing that half of the world over. Look at Pakistani soldiers. But there is a condition - first they put their rifles somewhere else. You may not like that to happen in India.

Also, DRDO was told to make it 4 man crew, add various accessory like mineplough despite DRDO protesting that it is impossible to make 60 ton tank with such extra equipment. So, it is a matter f giving impossible specifications to sabotage

New tank is emerging for competition -
http://idrw.org/meet-worlds-most-expensive-k2-black-panther-tank-offered-to-india/#more-199520

The K2 costs around $8.5 million per unit cost for comparison’s. Russia’s new T-14 Armata Russian tank costs $3.7 million, American made M1A2 Abrams costs $4.3 million and even India’s Arjun Tank per unit cost around is $7.8 million even with a limited production run of only 126 units. K2 suffers from limited production run due to which unit cost is still high. South Korean Army had an initial requirement of 680 tanks but orders were confined to only 390 units after it hit production in 2013.

why should anyone buy a useless tank at the most expensive price and then go to Tihar jail for not following financial rules. Ever heard of DPP and GFR? Army has not written those.

Economy of scale is about manufacturing enmasse. It reduces transportation cost, fuel cost, labour cost, maintenance cost etc drastically. Due to the fact that materials and equipment keep getting deteriorated due to rusting, weather etc, doing things fast will prevent the maintenance cost

And who will do internal economy of scale - reduce labour, cut cost of establishment, tooling and kitting, abolish living in guest houses, cut electrcity charges, efficiency, technology upgradation.

giving lecture on economy of scale without completely understanding is not the answer.

There is no other way. Order 2000 guns and cost will be about 20% as much per gun as it costs for 100

Put that a condition of offer and let DAC decide. Nothing is hypothetical.

Muslims ruled under mullahs, not Brahmans. Brahmans were disrespected by people who converted to Buddhism and eventually surrendered & converted due to cowardice. Kshatriyas would kill Brahmans who would give good advice, calling it as insults or rebellion. These kind of sabotage led to the problem, not the wise people helping evil ones

Mullahs did not run the administration. There were rulers and Mullahs who dd not know even how to read. Indian professional classes like brahmins ran their and British rule. I have no doubt about it.

About Kshatriay killing Brahmin, I have never heard of it. May be you can give historical instances. But what I did hear is that about Kshatrya dharma -

"namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca
jagad-dhitaya krishnaya govindaya namo namah"

And Gita lays down :

“ Sowryam thaejo dhruthir daakshyam yuddhae chaapya palaayanam ,
daanam eeswarabhaavascha kshaatram karma swabhaavajam”. (18–43).

No one could have ruled Indians for thousands of years without the help of some Indians - be it Mr Ayer, Mr Mukherjee, Mr Nehrus or Saprus Mr Mishra or Sharma etc etc. - the Kalu Angrej. Army Officers were the only responsibility where thy did not trust anyone

Om Tat Sat.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I have been seeing such lies being peddled on the forum for a long time now. Please provide a source for this ridiculous claim that ordering 2000 guns will cut their costs by 80% as compared to an order of 100 guns.

Look man, this is economics basics. There is no need for source. Just read how scaling works. It is most important aspect of economics and you can read it anywhere

Who defines quality? Who will ditermine quality? User or maker ?

Quality is defined by ability to get results. So,getting results is important. The user or developer can go to hell

Then do it.
You already have 41 factories and the number is increasing.

We can't make artillery in factories to make mortars. We did not have the specific equipment till recently.Now we only have limited quantity of equipments. First we have to get that and that costs a lot

But if DRDO starts laying down strategy and tactics - that is not their job.

Strategy is the job of Brahman. Tactics is job of Kshatriya. Strategy is about long term plan while tactics is about winning battles. Strategy involves extensive planning, intrigues, conspiracies, technology development, logistical warfare etc. That can't be decided by soldiers

The K2 costs around $8.5 million per unit cost for comparison’s. Russia’s new T-14 Armata Russian tank costs $3.7 million, American made M1A2 Abrams costs $4.3 million and even India’s Arjun Tank per unit cost around is $7.8 million even with a limited production run of only 126 units. K2 suffers from limited production run due to which unit cost is still high. South Korean Army had an initial requirement of 680 tanks but orders were confined to only 390 units after it hit production in 2013.

The production cost of various countries differs due to various reasons. In India, the PSUs follow a method where the development cost is first received from government but is returned to government as royalty charges after manufacturing. this is done to ensure that the money from govt goes back to govt and the minority shreholders don't get much as dividend. Other countries may not follow this rule. For example, despite F35 having R&D cost over $50 billion, the per unit cost is just $135 million

Another aspect is that other countries already have the manufacturing units and only have to manufacture a different design. It is like Maruti making Swift car after abandoning zen car. But in India, everything has to be built up as they did not exist at all.

Mullahs did not run the administration. There were rulers and Mullahs who dd not know even how to read. Indian professional classes like brahmins ran their and British rule. I have no doubt about it.

In British, it was Hindus. But Mughal administration was Mullah based. In fact, unlike what modern historian say of British, reality is that Hindus viewed British as the ones who defeated muslims. Bengal had massive celebration when British won against Nawab and Mughals. British actively courted Hindus and took down muslims. The Marathas fell due to infighting where Raghunath Rao was not given Peshwa position despite being extremely able and having conquered vast territory. This led to anger and eventual alliance with British of his faction

About Kshatriay killing Brahmin, I have never heard of it. May be you can give historical instances. But what I did hear is that about Kshatrya dharm

Read about how Ashoka betrayed and imposed Buddhism using might of sword. He used to send army unit behind monks to kill anyone who opposed. The kshatriya dharma was long forgotten. Brahmans used to write extensively that no one follows Vedas anymore.

Examples like Chanakya's father being killed by Nandas, Chanakya himself was hunted by Nanda but he evaded and in turn killed Nandas. Krishnadevaraya gouged out the eyes of his prime minister Appaji which eventually led to fall of Vijayanagara. The greatness of the empire was due to Appaji, a Brahman scholar and it was due to him that Krishnadevaraya was popular. Yet, Appaji was punished to ensure that he does not usurp the throne

In older times, the civilisation was ruled by "Parashuram" whose position is like that of christian "Pope". Dharmic version of Pope is Parashuram. Parashuram used to kill Kshatriyas who went against dharma and hence restored dharma. But somehow Parashuram ceased to exist and Brahmans lost their dominant position. After all, society works on "might is right" principle. So, without might being in the hands of Parashuram, Brahmans can't be at the top of the society. This was the reason for degradation

 

[Bhadra]

They should be asked what the difference is between the two guns that they are in charge of producing that one is substantially cheaper than the other. Explanation is warranted. anyone should be interested in knowing why a completely Indian platform is somehow more expensive than a foreign one, apart from the obvious difference in range and weight etc which can be factored in.

Does their gun meet the GSQR ?
Price is for them to offer.
It is the job of GoI to expend tax payers money as per financial rules.
No explanation. Period.

 

[Bhadra]

I have been seeing such lies being peddled on the forum for a long time now. Please provide a source for this ridiculous claim that ordering 2000 guns will cut their costs by 80% as compared to an order of 100 guns.

Agree.
They should make an offer like that - if you buy 1000 guns the price will be -XXXXX.
Same opportunity has to be given to all vendors.
Others will still outbid. Then they will again cry.

But these guys want "Reservations" - Reservation in appointment, reservation in promotions and reservation for their mal.

 

[Indrajit]

Does their gun meet the GSQR ?
Price is for them to offer.
It is the job of GoI to expend tax payers money as per financial rules.
No explanation. Period.

Explanation is definitely warranted because DRDO, a government agency picked them. You can choose to think differently.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Screwing is the basic human instinct - in fact the most fundamental - perpetuation of self.


No Sir, it is a discussion. I am not debating.





I never said that. Indian Army could also be at fault. The idea is to rectify.

The problem to be rectified sirji, seems now weight(ek kaam Karo tum DEFENCE PROFESSIONALS log BHI ANTI-MATTER KE BAN JAO BAHUT WEIGHT SAVE HOGA)
Really I feel disgusted(nagar tum log ko kya hota hai,sentimental reply de Dena iska bhi)
FIRST WANT WORLD CLASS Features ADDED TOO and then WANT Reduction in weight too.
It is not anti-matter materials that can replace the gun.
You yourself said na army is also in fault now.
The problem of army can be solved by themselves only otherwise they must stop comparing themselves to US, Japan or UK army.
OI SIRJI, TUM KYA ATAGS GUN KO FALTU KEH RAHE HO?
Range chahiye tumlogon ko, jab engineer kahega barrel increase KARNA padega toh kohoge FOREIGN WAALE AISA NAHI KARTE(Arre bhai ATAGS ki type ki gun abhi toh market mein nahi, kya kya khubi hai ATAGS mein search Marlo)
Engineers ki baat Manoge nahin,kahoge reservations se aate hain toh ISRO mein tum jaate ho RECRUITMENT karne(na bhai woh different breed waale log hain)
Engineer ko Manoge nahin APNA PRIMARY REQUIREMENT DECIDE NAHI KAROGE.
KA tha primary requirement is gun ka batao yahi bata do Bhadra ji?

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Guys first of all price is not easy to compare. Typically we get an aggregate price; without telling us the exact order. You can understand an order only by comparing item by item. Such stuff is never made public by MOD.

In general private sector will always be cheaper. It is due to efficiency and productivity. So despite a healthy profit margin, private sector will always win over public sector.

In India, we also have trade unions and politicization problems; in addition to sabotage by foreign agencies. Our defence industries have not been running well. Private sector is MUST at this time. It is no more optional.

Ya but @Bhadra has problem with ATAGS too.
I want to ask you HAS DHANUSH PASSED THE TRIALS OR NOT?
HE can't answer this that's why this question to you sir.

 

[garg_bharat]

Ya but @Bhadra has problem with ATAGS too.
I want to ask you HAS DHANUSH PASSED THE TRIALS OR NOT?
HE can't answer this that's why this question to you sir.

Yes Dhanush has passed the trials. Thats why production units are getting deployed at LOC.
The next gun will be ATHOS from Bharat Forge. This gun is in service with Israel army.

Rate of production of Dhanush can be increased too. We can easily see 6-8 units per month.

 

[Pandeyji]

Ok I am.
But Chutiye, open your knowing mind and do tell us what are those rather showing your "dom raja" perfidy.

Like that would have any effect. You completely lack the capacity for self-reflection & common sense. And if you really are in defence services, then you are the perfect example of why the forces should be kept away from policy-making