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blackleaf

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johnj said:
I'm not comparing aircraft to aircraft under hypothetical conditions but real war like conditions[indo pak excluding external factors], considering multiple factors, including pilot.
Hypothetically under any dynamic conditions, both F16 and J10c are far superior to LCA mk1 & J10c superior to mk2, F16 superior to mk2 most of the conditions.
If IAF consider dynamic, hypothetical nature of air warfare, then only choice is F22 and it lacks IRST. Next choice are EFT, Su 57 and rafale. Means we end up importing 300s+ of rafale, 400s+ 6th gen, 1000s of autonomous hunter/hunter killer drones, from foreign countries
ADA done a good job with LCA design, and it is capable of handling any threat emerging from Pak, present and near future, unfortunately MoD, drdo, gtre, industry unable to keep up with them, which forced ADA/HAL to use Israel, British, US tech & support.
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How are F16 and J10c superior to MK2? They seem to be in roughly the same class. Maybe the upgraded F16s are clearly superior but most of Pakistan's F16s will be older versions and their access to the latest American upgraded us doubtful.
J10c for example should have a less efficient engine than the MK2 and even the payload numbers I've seen quoted are less than those projected for MK2.
 
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johnj

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blackleaf said:
How are F16 and J10c superior to MK2? They seem to be in roughly the same class. Maybe the upgraded F16s are clearly superior but most of Pakistan's F16s will be older versions and their access to the latest American upgraded us doubtful.
J10c for example should have a less efficient engine than the MK2 and even the payload numbers I've seen quoted are less than those projected for MK2.
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Engine efficiency doesn't matter becz J10c having 144kN engine
Both F16 and j10 are true medium class jets and LCA mk2 only come close to medium class. High payload good for bombers not fighters, both J10 and F16 designed for air superiority like lca mk1 & unlike lca mk2 and air superiority jets comes with low payload. F16 and J10 having extra 1000~ 2200 kg weight compared to MWF and their engines produce 25% to 40% more power, can carry more powerful radar, EW suite etc. PAF having 1 decade time to upgrade their F16, both jets already supported by large variety of missiles and munitions, sensors, EW suite etc.
 
NutCracker

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johnj said:
Engine efficiency doesn't matter becz J10c having 144kN engine
Both F16 and j10 are true medium class jets and LCA mk2 only come close to medium class. High payload good for bombers not fighters, both J10 and F16 designed for air superiority like lca mk1 & unlike lca mk2 and air superiority jets comes with low payload. F16 and J10 having extra 1000~ 2200 kg weight compared to MWF and their engines produce 25% to 40% more power, can carry more powerful radar, EW suite etc. PAF having 1 decade time to upgrade their F16, both jets already supported by large variety of missiles and munitions, sensors, EW suite etc.
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Can you provide source of WS-10 being 144kN.
 
Tuco

Tuco

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NoobWannaLearn said:

So tapas is more or less dead archer ng is the new thing
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This was mentioned by ADE themselves about 6/7 years ago in one of the Airshow lectures (Bangalore) , that they found the current design sub optimal and they are planning on redesigning it. This was well known. What this guy is saying is nothing new. Tapas is not that bad spec wise either will definitely be ordered. He might be confused with the ng which is a progression.
 
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blackleaf

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johnj said:
Engine efficiency doesn't matter becz J10c having 144kN engine
Both F16 and j10 are true medium class jets and LCA mk2 only come close to medium class. High payload good for bombers not fighters, both J10 and F16 designed for air superiority like lca mk1 & unlike lca mk2 and air superiority jets comes with low payload. F16 and J10 having extra 1000~ 2200 kg weight compared to MWF and their engines produce 25% to 40% more power, can carry more powerful radar, EW suite etc. PAF having 1 decade time to upgrade their F16, both jets already supported by large variety of missiles and munitions, sensors, EW suite etc.
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Engine efficiency should help with longer ranger. Also western engines should require less frequent servicing and have higher availability rates.
I see the MK2 as an Indian Gripen E and the Gripen E was designed to combat Russian Flankers. Maybe it won't be able to compete against F16Vs but it should be competitive against older F16s. The J10 should also still be less capable than a F16V. It still has a worse engine and probably less advanced radar and EW suit than the F16V.

For the F16 I'm not sure how much Pakistan can upgrade without American assistance and America is less likely to help given Pakistan closeness to China.
 
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johnj

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blackleaf said:
Engine efficiency should help with longer ranger. Also western engines should require less frequent servicing and have higher availability rates.
I see the MK2 as an Indian Gripen E and the Gripen E was designed to combat Russian Flankers. Maybe it won't be able to compete against F16Vs but it should be competitive against older F16s. The J10 should also still be less capable than a F16V. It still has a worse engine and probably less advanced radar and EW suit than the F16V.

For the F16 I'm not sure how much Pakistan can upgrade without American assistance and America is less likely to help given Pakistan closeness to China.
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Engine efficiency doesn't matter due to close proximity, mach 2/1.8, enough internal fuel capacity etc, and no one care efficiency during wartime, US spends trillions dollar in Afghan and Iraq war.
Servicing & availability rates - PAF keep availability rates and serviceability very high during initial days of war, better than IAF.
Flankers developed to counter Eagles, F16 is less capable than Eagles, making Flankers superior to Falcons, if Gripen can counter Flankers, it can easily handle both Eagles and Falcons. Gripen E is superior to both F21 and F16V except some cases.
F16V - IAF not going to buy F21. PAF can upgrade their F16 to F16V level, if someone give them financial aid.
US - military allay = Pakistan, economic allay = China. US do anything in their power to keep these balance, they already given 450mil $ free to upgrade and maintain PAF F16, and they like more F16 in PAF than more J10s. The major reason why US not providing new gen upgrade to PAF F16 due to IAF MMRCA/MRFA requirement.
PAF F16 - Once Turkey start getting V tech, they offer similar tech to PAF, and US support this to reduce Chinese influence over Pak and avoid issue with India, which arise if US provide V upgrade to Pak directly
DRDO, ADA and IAF know these better than us, that's why they redesigned LCA mk2 into MWF, which help to counter PAF F16V and J10ZE in future
LCA stuck with F404, but MWF get 110~125KN engine in future
Most important thing about Engine during war is reliability, which depends on design, materials and maintenance. GE engines is more reliable than IAF MKI engines and WS10B.
 
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