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SwordOfDarkness

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THAAD, PAC and Aegis all have redirecting capabilities. I guess Iron Dome too has it, but I'm not sure.

The basic rule of engagement with PACs (especially lower cost PAC-3 CRIs) is to fire two missile on a single target and wait for the first missile to hit...if it misses then second one is left locked but if it successfully neutralizes then the second missile is either redirected or self destructed.
Interesting. could you share some material for me to read? I hadnt read of this being done (though these are a much different use case than the one we were talking about).

Except SAPHEI or SAPHEI-T are primarily used to target light armoured vehicles.
Nope. The one gun based CRAM (not naval CWIS, those have different concerns, where they warhead is bg enough and armoured enough for AP rounds to be needed) that has seen success, the US Centurion, uses what are effectively SAPHEI rounds (M-940 20mm MPT-SD).

Just add a single word before that artillery shell and everything changes; guided.

If I'm not wrong then in Ukraine war Excaliburs has done more damage to Russian AD systems then anything else.
Please explain why/how using a large missile instead of a small one changes that. Unless again you want to claim that we should use missiles to hit artillery?
 

Flying Dagger

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Interesting. could you share some material for me to read? I hadnt read of this being done (though these are a much different use case than the one we were talking about).



Nope. The one gun based CRAM (not naval CWIS, those have different concerns, where they warhead is bg enough and armoured enough for AP rounds to be needed) that has seen success, the US Centurion, uses what are effectively SAPHEI rounds (M-940 20mm MPT-SD).


Please explain why/how using a large missile instead of a small one changes that. Unless again you want to claim that we should use missiles to hit artillery?
Guided artillery rounds are cheaper in comparison to missiles but they can be directed at enemy position more precisely without being intercepted.

Only a few systems like iron done are deployed the world over to counter artillery shells as it's pretty expensive to do so.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Guided artillery rounds are cheaper in comparison to missiles but they can be directed at enemy position more precisely without being intercepted.

Only a few systems like iron done are deployed the world over to counter artillery shells as it's pretty expensive to do so.
Yeah, and even that only does it against sporadic attacks by militants, not actual militaries with millions of rounds to spare. Dont see the feasibility of anti-artillery missiles.
 

Samej Jangir

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Fast forward 2030. (assume the Mudi is still in power)
What Equipment do you still see being imported? No small items the significants ones only.

Me personally.
Transport aircrafts.
Gunzz Thr Russian or Murican ones still.
Tanks the ruski ones.
Small Arms
Specialized drones the israieli ones and some Murian ones as well.
Jets At least one more batch most likely ruski ones.
Everything except transport planes, naval and iaf turbofan engines and the currently operating imported equipments & their spares will be indigenous. Even turbofan engines is likely to be indigenised by 2030 and brought into mass production by 2032. After that, only large transport planes will need imports
Ten Heron were bought in armed configuration.


If you meant the rest 90+ ? They were supposed to be weaponised under project cheetah... Which is running on since 2010 around getting cancelled and revived. That's another IAF never ending saga.
Can you tell me one use of armed heron drones? Which target will it strike?
Don't we have license to produce them ?

I know they are derived from them But I thought they have modified with some tweaks and now it's OFB legit property or licensed produced.

800 RPM is pretty good . What abt AK 630 don't we have license to produce them ?

We also have license for L70 production.
Yes, India has licensed all tanks. In fact any equipment which is being indigenised have ontained full license. Only caveat is that India has to substitute the critical parts by own efforts. T90, BMP, T72 are all licensed and are capable of fully indigenous manufacturing.
BMP doesn't have much armour . Infact we may need to uprate the engine a bit.
We can use T72 engines which are meant for 35ton vehicles. If light tank is 30tom, then the engine will even give additional thrust to climb mountain.
If they really go for VSHORADS type missiles then that would be bit shoddy.

IR guided missiles like VSHORADs would provide fire and forget capability to the system which is a key to counter a saturation attack where you want to waste as little time as possible between engaging two targets. But there's a bit of a problem with IR guided missiles; not all CRAM targets are hot. Things like glide bomb or artillery shell after travelling a long distance in high atmosphere become quite cold. This thing can also be witnessed in Ukraine Russia war where Ukrainian MANPADs are struggling to engage electric UAVs as compared to ICE ones.

The optimum missile for this type of system are semi active radar guided ones. Firstly because of being semi active the cost is bit lower and secondly the onboard radar can simultaneously guide 4-8 missiles to different targets. It also means the radar can redirect missiles in flight to new targets.
Radar based VSHORADS are impractical. The size of radars needed to acquire target will make them bulky and need large electricity supply. Also, Indian NAG ATHM has been tested in all conditions - normal, hot desert and even in cold Ladakh condition to check if it can see targets. DRDO had yo develop higher resolution IIR seeker for cold conditions but eventually it was fully feasible. So, with lower resolution (preferably 240p), IIR seekers can spot targets in cold too.
A question regarding the QRSAM:

Which other missiles provide similiar performance and fulfil the same role as QRSAM?
Spyder from Israel is one such example. No Indian system does what qrsam does. QRSAM is not just shorad but movable and quick reacting one.
Guided artillery rounds are cheaper in comparison to missiles but they can be directed at enemy position more precisely without being intercepted.

Only a few systems like iron done are deployed the world over to counter artillery shells as it's pretty expensive to do so.
India already has Swathi WLS for this. Interception of each round is impossible. Also, guided artillery is similar to rockets but their guidance is not that great
 

Lonewarrior

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How many times I'll have to reiterate again and again that we have moved way past vaccum tubes in electronics?
Radar based VSHORADS are impractical. The size of radars needed to acquire target will make them bulky and need large electricity supply.
This is an AESA radar...
Screenshot_2023-04-21-22-02-06-56_c37d74246d9c81aa0bb824b57eaf7062.jpg

If even this is bulky and power hungry for you then there's one that takes mere 250W and weighs just 34kg while still able to detect a fighter like target at 20+km
Also, Indian NAG ATHM has been tested in all conditions - normal, hot desert and even in cold Ladakh condition to check if it can see targets.
Find out why Ukrainian were having difficulty shooting electric UAVs with Stinger or Strela but not with Martlet or StarStreak
Do some research
 

Lonewarrior

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Can you tell me one use of armed heron drones? Which target will it strike?
To provide an armed overwatch, to deal with battlefield targets upto SHORADs, to free up fighters from some of their duty and assigns those to Heron and SAMs, completely change the way we used to operate CI/CT in jungles, provide maritime surveillance capabilities with strike options against infiltration or FACs

Any target that can't fire back to the 10km altitude Heron is flying at can be struck
Yes, India has licensed all tanks. In fact any equipment which is being indigenised have ontained full license. Only caveat is that India has to substitute the critical parts by own efforts. T90, BMP, T72 are all licensed and are capable of fully indigenous manufacturing.
He was not asking about tanks, he was asking about auto-cannons
Spyder from Israel is one such example. No Indian system does what qrsam does. QRSAM is not just shorad but movable and quick reacting one.
First of all, for God's sake stop this "quick reaction" thing. It's like saying you have a hypersonic ballistic missile...all modern SAMs are Quick Reaction. Just name a single SAM that is Retarded Reaction!?

Except the fact that India has VLRSAM which is quite similar to QRSAM.
It is designed to be fired from a ship that rocking the hell out of itself due to bad sea...so don't you say it can't be fired on the move.
And it is designed as the last ditch air defence before you switch to CIWS...so don't you say it's not quick reacting...coz then our navy would be doomed.

NASAMs mounted on mobile platforms are quite similar to QRSAM. There's a proposed version of CAMM that can be fired on the move. Turkish HISAR is similar.
Also, guided artillery is similar to rockets but their guidance is not that great
Guidance is not that good!?

You can hit a moving vehicle with laser guided Excalibur. Even if not laser then normal GPS ones provide a CEP of 2-4m
 

Fatalis

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To provide an armed overwatch, to deal with battlefield targets upto SHORADs, to free up fighters from some of their duty and assigns those to Heron and SAMs, completely change the way we used to operate CI/CT in jungles, provide maritime surveillance capabilities with strike options against infiltration or FACs

Any target that can't fire back to the 10km altitude Heron is flying at can be struck

He was not asking about tanks, he was asking about auto-cannons

First of all, for God's sake stop this "quick reaction" thing. It's like saying you have a hypersonic ballistic missile...all modern SAMs are Quick Reaction. Just name a single SAM that is Retarded Reaction!?

Except the fact that India has VLRSAM which is quite similar to QRSAM.
It is designed to be fired from a ship that rocking the hell out of itself due to bad sea...so don't you say it can't be fired on the move.
And it is designed as the last ditch air defence before you switch to CIWS...so don't you say it's not quick reacting...coz then our navy would be doomed.

NASAMs mounted on mobile platforms are quite similar to QRSAM. There's a proposed version of CAMM that can be fired on the move. Turkish HISAR is similar.

Guidance is not that good!?

You can hit a moving vehicle with laser guided Excalibur. Even if not laser then normal GPS ones provide a CEP of 2-4m
Few doubts:

Is it a case that Slant-launched missiles are quicker to react than the Vertically-launched missiles?

Can the Vertically-launched missiles fire on the move (Not talking about Tor) like the Slant-launched missiles?
 

Lonewarrior

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Don't go by the name of VL-SRSAM. It's VL not because it can only be launched vertically, it's VL because it's launched from a VLS.

Moreover in SAMs you have two distinct ways of launching a SAM; one is via rail and other is tube.
Things like MANPADs are tube launched where the only thing stabilizing it in the tube are plastic supports. NASAMS are rail launched, where inside the tube the are restraint on a rail and guided on it during launch.

VL-SRSAM is derived from Astra; it's rail launched too. And Astra is an air launched missile so it's very well certified for the high gs a fighter might go through while launching it.

Now coming to specific questions
Is it a case that Slant-launched missiles are quicker to react than the Vertically-launched missiles?
It's subjective
If both the missiles are fin or canard controlled then slant firing one would definitely give it a slight reduction in reaction time. But if one is equipped with something like a thrust vector unit or divert thruster then this difference in reaction time becomes almost negligible.

Moreover the time a vertical launched missile would take to orient itself to the target using TVC or DAC would always be less than that of a slant firing launcher adjusting it's traverse and elevation each time for a new target.
Can the Vertically-launched missiles fire on the move (Not talking about Tor) like the Slant-launched missiles?
If rail launched then yes. If tube launched then it might need few modifications
 

SwordOfDarkness

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SwordOfDarkness

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How many times I'll have to reiterate again and again that we have moved way past vaccum tubes in electronics?



Find out why Ukrainian were having difficulty shooting electric UAVs with Stinger or Strela but not with Martlet or StarStreak
Do some research
Bruh

You arent properly understanding what the specs mean. It says "average" 790 W. My suspicion is its sending out higher power pulses with a significant delay in between, in order to reduce power consumption. Actual, usable radars, like Swathi, have 40KW power consumption, and even then its just a WLR.

And Ukrainians were wasting resources if shooting small drones with MANPADs. Give them a HMG.
 

Lonewarrior

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Bruh

You arent properly understanding what the specs mean. It says "average" 790 W. My suspicion is its sending out higher power pulses with a significant delay in between, in order to reduce power consumption. Actual, usable radars, like Swathi, have 40KW power consumption, and even then its just a WLR.
Definitely average power is lower than Max but modern radars consume way less power than older.

Swathi ain't AESA, modern AESA like full fledged multi-mode ELM-2052 can operate as low as 2.7kW
 

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