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SwordOfDarkness

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BMP has armour!!?
Duh? BMP has armour, wouldnt be an IFV otherwise.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of light tank?
The engine should logically be of lesser power as it does not need to carry around the Armour.
Excess power generation, and weight wont be too different. Maybe 30 ton tank will lead to 22-25 ton ADS. Remember ADS also needs armour, as it will be operating near the frontlines. Not as much as a tank, but still decent.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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If it's just some putting a vshorad on a gun platform, that would be a huge disappointment. Pretty sure you would need the type of missile like Pantsir one to intercept hard targets like HIMARS guided rockets, which chinese have quite a lot.
Dont think so. In fact, the main point of having the gun there would be take down Rockets, artillery, tactical ballistic missiles, anything with a predictable trajectory.

Missile is mostly for fighters, High altitude UAVs and other CAS assets, which dont follow a predictable path or lie outside range of the gun.

IMO, a modified VSHORADS with a booster motor would do just fine as a interceptor for the missile part.
 

Kuldeepm952

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Dont think so. In fact, the main point of having the gun there would be take down Rockets, artillery, tactical ballistic missiles, anything with a predictable trajectory.

Missile is mostly for fighters, High altitude UAVs and other CAS assets, which dont follow a predictable path or lie outside range of the gun.

IMO, a modified VSHORADS with a booster motor would do just fine as a interceptor for the missile part.
I am quite not sure about the CRAM type application with a gun solution. The bubble it would be able to protect would be very much less than that with a missile system. It might be good in case of point defense targets like static buildings or other installations in a limited capacity but for protecting frontlines you would definitely need a Pantsir like system with its comparitvely huge range in a SHORAD system.
As the speed of target increases, it's better to have a longer range system. Also, have yet to see a simple IR guided SAM used for downing a guided rocket artillery. Reaction time is the key and getting a LOBL in case of a high speed approaching target would be problematic.

What you are proposing would be akin to type625e with its gun and widened manpads missile FB10 with some 10ish km range.

I
1684729318133.png


I still think systems like FK 2000 or Pantsir are more versatile. But each system to it's own, whatever IA seems fit will be it.

1684729404316.png


Or be like China and develop both system and see what fits the need better.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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I am quite not sure about the CRAM type application with a gun solution. The bubble it would be able to protect would be very much less than that with a missile system. It might be good in case of point defense targets like static buildings or other installations in a limited capacity but for protecting frontlines you would definitely need a Pantsir like system with its comparitvely huge range in a SHORAD system.
As the speed of target increases, it's better to have a longer range system. Also, have yet to see a simple IR guided SAM used for downing a guided rocket artillery. Reaction time is the key and getting a LOBL in case of a high speed approaching target would be problematic.

What you are proposing would be akin to type625e with its gun and widened manpads missile FB10 with some 10ish km range.

IView attachment 206531

I still think systems like FK 2000 or Pantsir are more versatile. But each system to it's own, whatever IA seems fit will be it.

View attachment 206533

Or be like China and develop both system and see what fits the need better.
hmm. If we do go for clean slate missiles for the SHORAD, it might make sense in going for the light tank chassis. IFV chassis wont be able to support the weight of missiles+recoil of gun.

Though the only reason I see for new missiles for shorad is larger warhead, to increase PK.
 

NoobWannaLearn

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hmm. If we do go for clean slate missiles for the SHORAD, it might make sense in going for the light tank chassis. IFV chassis wont be able to support the weight of missiles+recoil of gun.

Though the only reason I see for new missiles for shorad is larger warhead, to increase PK.
Alpha did say missiles will be vshroad maybe with a bit of change
 

Lonewarrior

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If they really go for VSHORADS type missiles then that would be bit shoddy.

IR guided missiles like VSHORADs would provide fire and forget capability to the system which is a key to counter a saturation attack where you want to waste as little time as possible between engaging two targets. But there's a bit of a problem with IR guided missiles; not all CRAM targets are hot. Things like glide bomb or artillery shell after travelling a long distance in high atmosphere become quite cold. This thing can also be witnessed in Ukraine Russia war where Ukrainian MANPADs are struggling to engage electric UAVs as compared to ICE ones.

The optimum missile for this type of system are semi active radar guided ones. Firstly because of being semi active the cost is bit lower and secondly the onboard radar can simultaneously guide 4-8 missiles to different targets. It also means the radar can redirect missiles in flight to new targets.
 

NoobWannaLearn

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If they really go for VSHORADS type missiles then that would be bit shoddy.

IR guided missiles like VSHORADs would provide fire and forget capability to the system which is a key to counter a saturation attack where you want to waste as little time as possible between engaging two targets. But there's a bit of a problem with IR guided missiles; not all CRAM targets are hot. Things like glide bomb or artillery shell after travelling a long distance in high atmosphere become quite cold. This thing can also be witnessed in Ukraine Russia war where Ukrainian MANPADs are struggling to engage electric UAVs as compared to ICE ones.

The optimum missile for this type of system are semi active radar guided ones. Firstly because of being semi active the cost is bit lower and secondly the onboard radar can simultaneously guide 4-8 missiles to different targets. It also means the radar can redirect missiles in flight to new targets.
So do you suggest we should work on a new Missile for this system?
 

SwordOfDarkness

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If they really go for VSHORADS type missiles then that would be bit shoddy.

IR guided missiles like VSHORADs would provide fire and forget capability to the system which is a key to counter a saturation attack where you want to waste as little time as possible between engaging two targets. But there's a bit of a problem with IR guided missiles; not all CRAM targets are hot. Things like glide bomb or artillery shell after travelling a long distance in high atmosphere become quite cold. This thing can also be witnessed in Ukraine Russia war where Ukrainian MANPADs are struggling to engage electric UAVs as compared to ICE ones.

The optimum missile for this type of system are semi active radar guided ones. Firstly because of being semi active the cost is bit lower and secondly the onboard radar can simultaneously guide 4-8 missiles to different targets. It also means the radar can redirect missiles in flight to new targets.
First off
Glide bombs & artillery arent there to be engaged with missile. Anybody who tries to intercept 500$ artillery with 200,000$ (and thats on the low end) missile is an idiot.

They are there to be intercepted by the gun. Same for UAVs. These things just arent maneuverable enough to warrant a missile.

As for your concerns about "cold" targets, just know that something flying through air will be much hotter than it. And with datalinked MANPADS (like VSHORADS is supposed to be) it can be guided close enough to pick up the lock.


Really the only drawback of using a modified manpads in place of clean slate design is warhead size, and concerns that it may not inflict enough damage to kill a target, especially if its explosion is further away.
On the flip side, bigger warhead needs bigger fuel; Pantsir type missiles, with 20kg warhead, weigh 100kg each.
 

Fatalis

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A question regarding the QRSAM:

Which other missiles provide similiar performance and fulfil the same role as QRSAM?
 

Lonewarrior

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And with datalinked MANPADS (like VSHORADS is supposed to be) it can be guided close enough to pick up the lock.
Is there any source of VSHORADs getting a datalink? I can't even understand how the heck can someone even come with this idea of a MANPADs having a datalink.

Datalinks are almost all of the time used when the target is out of missile's own seeker's range or a slavo is fired where you need to redirect or self-destroy missile. AIM-120s use datalink so that they can be fired blind, Spikes use datalink so that they can be fired LOAL, IronDome uses datalink so that second missile can be rapidly diverted towards nearest threat if the first fails.

VSHORADs is fired after a target is acquired using Eyeball Mk-I...so no need of LOAL.
One VSHORADs is fired from one launcher...so no salvo.
With Mach 1.5 and a range of 6km it gives you hardly 10-12 seconds from pressing trigger to actual detonation...why and perhaps more importantly HOW is a single soldier going to find a new target, acquire a new target, lock it and redirect the missile towards it...in less than 10 seconds!?
As for your concerns about "cold" targets, just know that something flying through air will be much hotter than it.
Definitely...infact our own bodies are much hotter than the surrounding air in a shady day.

But is that heat enough to lock on? Remember all heat seekers have algorithms to prevent them from locking on to the Sun (very hot objects) and ground (slightly hotter object).
Glide bombs & artillery arent there to be engaged with missile. Anybody who tries to intercept 500$ artillery with 200,000$ (and thats on the low end) missile is an idiot.
Artillery aren't but glide bombs are.

Also you consider the cost of an weapon by adding its unit price with the opportunity cost of not destroying it...sure a 500 bucks arty shell is cheaper than a 200k missile...but what if the guns fail to engage it (way smaller target, thick steel shell prevent 30mm HE shells from causing a sympathetic detonation) and it destroyes your AD unit? What about that cost?

This is the sole reason Israelis don't bother what they're engaging before firing a Stunner.
These things just arent maneuverable enough to warrant a missile.
Use of missiles are not only to target maneuverable target...remember a cruise missile is not a fighter pilot who's going to sense a RWR warning and do evasive maneuver while dumping chaff...it will continue its course in quite predictable manner.

The problem with guns is that each target engages the gun. You aim your gun at a target, fire a burst and now you wait for it to get shot...basically engaging your gun for that period. But with missile you can simply fire all of them at once and then start assigning each one to a target all the while engaging the nearest one with your gun.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Is there any source of VSHORADs getting a datalink? I can't even understand how the heck can someone even come with this idea of a MANPADs having a datalink.

Datalinks are almost all of the time used when the target is out of missile's own seeker's range or a slavo is fired where you need to redirect or self-destroy missile. AIM-120s use datalink so that they can be fired blind, Spikes use datalink so that they can be fired LOAL, IronDome uses datalink so that second missile can be rapidly diverted towards nearest threat if the first fails.

VSHORADs is fired after a target is acquired using Eyeball Mk-I...so no need of LOAL.
One VSHORADs is fired from one launcher...so no salvo.
With Mach 1.5 and a range of 6km it gives you hardly 10-12 seconds from pressing trigger to actual detonation...why and perhaps more importantly HOW is a single soldier going to find a new target, acquire a new target, lock it and redirect the missile towards it...in less than 10 seconds!?

Definitely...infact our own bodies are much hotter than the surrounding air in a shady day.

But is that heat enough to lock on? Remember all heat seekers have algorithms to prevent them from locking on to the Sun (very hot objects) and ground (slightly hotter object).

Artillery aren't but glide bombs are.

Also you consider the cost of an weapon by adding its unit price with the opportunity cost of not destroying it...sure a 500 bucks arty shell is cheaper than a 200k missile...but what if the guns fail to engage it (way smaller target, thick steel shell prevent 30mm HE shells from causing a sympathetic detonation) and it destroyes your AD unit? What about that cost?

This is the sole reason Israelis don't bother what they're engaging before firing a Stunner.

Use of missiles are not only to target maneuverable target...remember a cruise missile is not a fighter pilot who's going to sense a RWR warning and do evasive maneuver while dumping chaff...it will continue its course in quite predictable manner.

The problem with guns is that each target engages the gun. You aim your gun at a target, fire a burst and now you wait for it to get shot...basically engaging your gun for that period. But with missile you can simply fire all of them at once and then start assigning each one to a target all the while engaging the nearest one with your gun.
Uhh... I think you have the wrong idea about why datalink exists.

TBH, I havent heard of interceptor missiles being diverted mid flight, if you have any operational instances do let me know, I would like to look into it too.

Datalink exists, so that launcher, i.e. the platform from which you are shooting the missile, can guide the missile most of the way with its larger, more stable seeker with better computing power. After lock is broken by the launch platform, the missile starts using its own guidance, by which time it should be close enough for a kill.

As for the cost, the analogy is flawed. The Israelis are defending static positions, against crude attacks that rebels do perhaps once in a few months. The resources Israelis have are immeasurable compared to those with the rebels. They can afford to purchase and resupply it. Most people cant. Even the US defaulted to Phalanx CWIS for intercepting artillery, mortars, rockets, threats of a predictable trajectory.

And also, we dont use HE for anti air CWIS systems. Usually its SAPHEI, to cut through the body then explode and light stuff up.

Im really not sure why you think anyone would ever intercept a artillery shell with a missile. Again, if you have an example of mobile missile systems being deployed in a near peer conflict for artillery, I would like to read up on them. Never seen it, just not feasible.

As for your final observations, you are imagining too intense of a conflict. An air defense system, alone, will very rarely (almost never) have to face off with dozens of simultaneous targets. For things that are important enough to be struck with a barrage of incoming missiles, it will also be important enough to be defended by multiple systems.
Be a bit realistic. Most common target for guns will be helis and drones that came too close. Most common taargets for missile will be Helis and CAS aircraft that stayed far off. CRAM functionality isnt needed, not unless you want to defend FOBs - And in that case, you can put a bunch of systems together. I just mentioned CRAM as a possible capability that I would like to see, but it it absolutely not necessary for supporting armoured troop elements.

PS: I wrote this following the standard way these are used, but to entertain your efforts, let us assume that we start using missiles for artillery shells.

Let us assume artillery shells fired per day, in a combat area, be limited to 100. (very conservative). Per the policy of using missiles to intercept artillery, it will cost you 40 million dollars per day in that small area alone (assuming Stingers being fired, not larger and bigger missiles like you suggested). Thats more than what 3-4 pantsir systems cost , being spent per day in one area :dude:

Per the usual policy of
1)If you can run away, run away - You spend 20 cents for fuel
2)If you cant run away, use guns - You spend ~2000-5000$

And running is a legit option, arty takes quite some time from firing to hit.
 

Lonewarrior

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Me say dis
Datalinks are almost all of the time used when the target is out of missile's own seeker's range
You say dis
Datalink exists, so that launcher, i.e. the platform from which you are shooting the missile, can guide the missile most of the way with
Still dis
Uhh... I think you have the wrong idea about why datalink exists.
...Chor 😏

I mentioned three (and perhaps all) different scenarios of using datalink...still no ijjat.
TBH, I havent heard of interceptor missiles being diverted mid flight, if you have any operational instances do let me know, I would like to look into it too.
THAAD, PAC and Aegis all have redirecting capabilities. I guess Iron Dome too has it, but I'm not sure.

The basic rule of engagement with PACs (especially lower cost PAC-3 CRIs) is to fire two missile on a single target and wait for the first missile to hit...if it misses then second one is left locked but if it successfully neutralizes then the second missile is either redirected or self destructed.
And also, we dont use HE for anti air CWIS systems. Usually its SAPHEI, to cut through the body then explode and light stuff up.
Except SAPHEI or SAPHEI-T are primarily used to target light armoured vehicles.

Naval Phalanx always uses APDS with tungsten penetrator
Ground Phalanx always uses HEI-SD to prevent collateral damage
All Russian CIWS uses either APDS or HEI

Remember this pic?
Screenshot_2023-05-22-20-28-25-77_6bcd734b3b4b52977458a65c801426b0.jpg
Im really not sure why you think anyone would ever intercept a artillery shell with a missile. Again, if you have an example of mobile missile systems being deployed in a near peer conflict for artillery, I would like to read up on them. Never seen it, just not feasible.
As for your final observations, you are imagining too intense of a conflict. An air defense system, alone, will very rarely (almost never) have to face off with dozens of simultaneous targets. For things that are important enough to be struck with a barrage of incoming missiles, it will also be important enough to be defended by multiple systems.
Be a bit realistic. Most common target for guns will be helis and drones that came too close. Most common taargets for missile will be Helis and CAS aircraft that stayed far off. CRAM functionality isnt needed, not unless you want to defend FOBs - And in that case, you can put a bunch of systems together. I just mentioned CRAM as a possible capability that I would like to see, but it it absolutely not necessary for supporting armoured troop elements.

PS: I wrote this following the standard way these are used, but to entertain your efforts, let us assume that we start using missiles for artillery shells.

Let us assume artillery shells fired per day, in a combat area, be limited to 100. (very conservative). Per the policy of using missiles to intercept artillery, it will cost you 40 million dollars per day in that small area alone (assuming Stingers being fired, not larger and bigger missiles like you suggested). Thats more than what 3-4 pantsir systems cost , being spent per day in one area :dude:

Per the usual policy of
1)If you can run away, run away - You spend 20 cents for fuel
2)If you cant run away, use guns - You spend ~2000-5000$

And running is a legit option, arty takes quite some time from firing to hit.
Just add a single word before that artillery shell and everything changes; guided.

If I'm not wrong then in Ukraine war Excaliburs has done more damage to Russian AD systems then anything else.
 

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