DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[johnj]

And hafta to Russians for using their IP

How much a brahmos costs in 2010, 2015, 2020 & 2030.
I think, current ones IN ordering is better than old ones with more range, land/ship attack capability & with russian long range missile guidance/statcom-nav from long range cruise missile, & modify kits for old ones.
Just missiles for new, upcoming & old ships.

 

[johnj]

Lets say your Father or Mother is in serious health condition. Now you have a person in your relationship who is a pharmacist and gives good medicine for cold and fever. On other hand you have a specialist sitting at a hospital who has the reputation to cure morbid ailment. Whom would you prefer? The pharmacist in your relationship or the specialist?

You want the soldier in the battlefield to adopt a system just on the basis that its indigenous?

Always prefer a specialist with reputation & experience in that particular field.

 

[arnabmit]

(Don't know why these media outlets always mention price in dollars when indigenous content in Brahmos as of now is 70%... they did the same with 307 ATAGS news where indigenous content is 95%... so major portion would be paid in INR)

So that you get to know how much Forex was saved.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Source: Wikipedia

Yup, I used "Wikipedia " as my source. Coz you know it's easier to go to a single Wikipedia page and then to each cited sites like ArmyRecognition or Jane's compared to just surfing...anyways I know you won't be interested in all those.

Can you please recommend me a source other than Wikipedia where I can find all the references related to something on a single page? And ya, also the fact that references are archived for preservation.
Please

And citation of that info in Wikipedia points towards an article which doesn't contain cost of p-800.

Citation of that info in Wikipedia points towards an article by Forbes which contains...

Quoting from any source is always easier but trust me it doesn't mean that I'm technically illiterate about facts. It just feels bad when you put effort in going through numerous web pages, noting down values, doing calculation...only to hear an expert comment "Wikipedia " on your message or someone counters you by saying that a customer first buys a missile and then pays additional money to get its internal components.

Anyways, here's the long and boring way to guess that the Wikipedia value of 1.25 million shouldn't be that off from actual price of P-800.

- On Wikipedia you'll find the cost of Kh-31 to be $550,000 in 2010. Now this is an interesting missile, coz it's virtually a BrahMos just scaled down to 1/4 of its mass. If you'll adjust inflation then the price comes to $0.75 million.

- During late 50s there used to be a US surface to air missile by the name RIM-8 Talos. It weighted 3500kg (2500kg for P-800), carried a 222kg warhead (300kg for BrahMos), used kerosene powdered ramjet (same as BrahMos) to attain a velocity of Mach 3 (same as BrahMos)...and in 1955 it was $155,000 a shot; which when inflation adjusted becomes $1.8 million in 2023 [Before anyone jumps in saying the data is from Wikipedia, just go to that Wikipedia page and you'll find a blue coloured bracket with a 2 in it. Click on it and you'll be redirected to Global Security; one of the trusted defence sites]

 

[NutCracker]

Yup, I used "Wikipedia " as my source. Coz you know it's easier to go to a single Wikipedia page and then to each cited sites like ArmyRecognition or Jane's compared to just surfing...anyways I know you won't be interested in all those.

Can you please recommend me a source other than Wikipedia where I can find all the references related to something on a single page? And ya, also the fact that references are archived for preservation.
Please


Citation of that info in Wikipedia points towards an article by Forbes which contains...
View attachment 196553
Quoting from any source is always easier but trust me it doesn't mean that I'm technically illiterate about facts. It just feels bad when you put effort in going through numerous web pages, noting down values, doing calculation...only to hear an expert comment "Wikipedia " on your message or someone counters you by saying that a customer first buys a missile and then pays additional money to get its internal components.

Anyways, here's the long and boring way to guess that the Wikipedia value of 1.25 million shouldn't be that off from actual price of P-800.

- On Wikipedia you'll find the cost of Kh-31 to be $550,000 in 2010. Now this is an interesting missile, coz it's virtually a BrahMos just scaled down to 1/4 of its mass. If you'll adjust inflation then the price comes to $0.75 million.

- During late 50s there used to be a US surface to air missile by the name RIM-8 Talos. It weighted 3500kg (2500kg for P-800), carried a 222kg warhead (300kg for BrahMos), used kerosene powdered ramjet (same as BrahMos) to attain a velocity of Mach 3 (same as BrahMos)...and in 1955 it was $155,000 a shot; which when inflation adjusted becomes $1.8 million in 2023 [Before anyone jumps in saying the data is from Wikipedia, just go to that Wikipedia page and you'll find a blue coloured bracket with a 2 in it. Click on it and you'll be redirected to Global Security; one of the trusted defence sites]

In my defence, it didnt translate Oniks for me.

 

[Lonewarrior]

How much a brahmos costs in 2010, 2015, 2020 & 2030.
I think, current ones IN ordering is better than old ones with more range, land/ship attack capability & with russian long range missile guidance/statcom-nav from long range cruise missile, & modify kits for old ones.
Just missiles for new, upcoming & old ships.

The P-800 from which BrahMos was developed is almost identical in terms of dimensions and the maximum range it has is 800km. So from day one our BrahMos were also capable of achieving 800km range but as we're not part of MTCR at that time it used to fitted with only 300km fuel tank.

So all the news you here about extended range or improved variant of BrahMos it's simply the fact that we are exploiting its full potential which was limited not because of some technological lacking but because of international laws.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Even MQ20 has turbofan. It's just a type of jet engine.

Turbofan engine vs turbojet engine I was saying
Turbofan everyone has
Few have turbojet

 

[johnj]

The P-800 from which BrahMos was developed is almost identical in terms of dimensions and the maximum range it has is 800km. So from day one our BrahMos were also capable of achieving 800km range but as we're not part of MTCR at that time it used to fitted with only 300km fuel tank.

So all the news you here about extended range or improved variant of BrahMos it's simply the fact that we are exploiting its full potential which was limited not because of some technological lacking but because of international laws.

And all of those costs extra, since its originally a russian ip.
Like iphone, plus taxes. & inflation. 5~6 mi$ is for last purchase with out these additional ip/permission.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Yup, I used "Wikipedia " as my source. Coz you know it's easier to go to a single Wikipedia page and then to each cited sites like ArmyRecognition or Jane's compared to just surfing...anyways I know you won't be interested in all those.

Can you please recommend me a source other than Wikipedia where I can find all the references related to something on a single page? And ya, also the fact that references are archived for preservation.
Please


Citation of that info in Wikipedia points towards an article by Forbes which contains...
View attachment 196553
Quoting from any source is always easier but trust me it doesn't mean that I'm technically illiterate about facts. It just feels bad when you put effort in going through numerous web pages, noting down values, doing calculation...only to hear an expert comment "Wikipedia " on your message or someone counters you by saying that a customer first buys a missile and then pays additional money to get its internal components.

Anyways, here's the long and boring way to guess that the Wikipedia value of 1.25 million shouldn't be that off from actual price of P-800.

- On Wikipedia you'll find the cost of Kh-31 to be $550,000 in 2010. Now this is an interesting missile, coz it's virtually a BrahMos just scaled down to 1/4 of its mass. If you'll adjust inflation then the price comes to $0.75 million.

- During late 50s there used to be a US surface to air missile by the name RIM-8 Talos. It weighted 3500kg (2500kg for P-800), carried a 222kg warhead (300kg for BrahMos), used kerosene powdered ramjet (same as BrahMos) to attain a velocity of Mach 3 (same as BrahMos)...and in 1955 it was $155,000 a shot; which when inflation adjusted becomes $1.8 million in 2023 [Before anyone jumps in saying the data is from Wikipedia, just go to that Wikipedia page and you'll find a blue coloured bracket with a 2 in it. Click on it and you'll be redirected to Global Security; one of the trusted defence sites]

BTW, global security is considered generally unreliable. Dont take their figures for fact.

"globalsecurity.org is an unreliable user-contributed and scraper site given to plagiarism. In the 2022 deprecation RFC, a slight majority of editors held that globalsecurity.org should be regarded as generally unreliable, with a significant minority arguing for deprecation. The site should not be used to back factual claims on Wikipedia. GlobalSecurity.org should not be confused with globalresearch.ca."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#GlobalSecurity.org

 

[Lonewarrior]

BTW, global security is considered generally unreliable. Dont take their figures for fact.

"globalsecurity.org is an unreliable user-contributed and scraper site given to plagiarism. In the 2022 deprecation RFC, a slight majority of editors held that globalsecurity.org should be regarded as generally unreliable, with a significant minority arguing for deprecation. The site should not be used to back factual claims on Wikipedia. GlobalSecurity.org should not be confused with globalresearch.ca."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#GlobalSecurity.org

May be in general it's unreliable but in this case it seems pretty accurate with other sources.

Like this one mentions $0.38 million in 1985, again adjusting Inflation you get something around a million dollar.

Talos

Talos

www.astronautix.com

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

May be in general it's unreliable but in this case it seems pretty accurate with other sources.

Like this one mentions $0.38 million in 1985, again adjusting Inflation you get something around a million dollar.

Talos

Talos

www.astronautix.com

Im not saying you are wrong, just saying that your argument may not be as good as you think.

Also inflation adjustment I think you are doing using commercial figures (i.e. average across sectors), which may or may not be valid for defence.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Except sss all are just resellers right? Hopefully sss grand this one

 

[Lonewarrior]

It's still the same old LoneWarrior and the topic is still BrahMos. Let's settle this for once and all.

- So for everyone questioning my source or mocking Wikipedia; this was published on the official webpage of BrahMos Aerospace, so I guess they approve of it.
- This piece is from 2010, so the prices should be high given economies of scale is yet to happen to its full potential.
- The raising cost; i.e. not just the cost of all associated equipment like launcher and command vehicle but also training, service and maintenance for one regiment was $83 million.
- $83 million/61 missile (mentioned in article) puts the price at $1.36 million per unit. And the most important point to be noted; this $1.36 million includes everything from spares to training.
- But the price they quote for export customer is a whopping $3 million; double of what they're charging for in-house purchase.
- So I guess it would be safe to assume this $3 million is the maximum price inclusive of $1.36 million (launcher, command vehicle, servicing, training, profit margin, IP royalty to Russia) and $1.6 million to cover every other thing.
- The Forbes article (and also the subsequent Wikipedia article) claim the per unit price of P-800 Onyx to be $1.25 million and here it's $1.36 for BrahMos...so I guess it's safe to assume that the price of Onyx is not hugely off.
- Now to top it off let's add inflation and that too on the maximum export price of $3 million; not the $1.36 million we paid...and it'll be something around $4 million
- Though it'll never be this much but still let's assume the cost of indigenous seeker, larger fuel tank and new booster to be $1 million.

- The current price of a single BrahMos missile, inclusive of everything from spares to training to IP stands at $5 million -

The recent order for 200+ BrahMos missile is priced at $2.5 billion

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

It's still the same old LoneWarrior and the topic is still BrahMos. Let's settle this for once and all.

View attachment 196580

- So for everyone questioning my source or mocking Wikipedia; this was published on the official webpage of BrahMos Aerospace, so I guess they approve of it.
- This piece is from 2010, so the prices should be high given economies of scale is yet to happen to its full potential.
- The raising cost; i.e. not just the cost of all associated equipment like launcher and command vehicle but also training, service and maintenance for one regiment was $83 million.
- $83 million/61 missile (mentioned in article) puts the price at $1.36 million per unit. And the most important point to be noted; this $1.36 million includes everything from spares to training.
- But the price they quote for export customer is a whopping $3 million; double of what they're charging for in-house purchase.
- So I guess it would be safe to assume this $3 million is the maximum price inclusive of $1.36 million (launcher, command vehicle, servicing, training, profit margin, IP royalty to Russia) and $1.6 million to cover every other thing.
- The Forbes article (and also the subsequent Wikipedia article) claim the per unit price of P-800 Onyx to be $1.25 million and here it's $1.36 for BrahMos...so I guess it's safe to assume that the price of Onyx is not hugely off.
- Now to top it off let's add inflation and that too on the maximum export price of $3 million; not the $1.36 million we paid...and it'll be something around $4 million
- Though it'll never be this much but still let's assume the cost of indigenous seeker, larger fuel tank and new booster to be $1 million.

- The current price of a single BrahMos missile, inclusive of everything from spares to training to IP stands at $5 million -

The recent order for 200+ BrahMos missile is priced at $2.5 billion

Im with you till the last line

The logical inference is not that bramhos became 2x costly without a reason, logical inference is that media reported wrong. Which they have done many times over.

 

[Shuturmurg]

Poland's military purchases since ukraine war. This is what being urgent about military modernization looks like :

 

[Tuco]

Poland's military purchases since ukraine war. This is what being urgent about military modernization looks like :

View attachment 196583

Fuck, the Koreans! And Indonesia to?

 

[karn]

Fuck, the Koreans! And Indonesia to?

Poland - Indonesia

 

[ezsasa]

Poland's military purchases since ukraine war. This is what being urgent about military modernization looks like :

View attachment 196583

what's the estimated cost of this lot in the infographic?

 

[Shuturmurg]

what's the estimated cost of this lot in the infographic?

Not sure, but deliveries and payments will be over next 10 years or so, they have signed all the deals though. For all Korean items some of the stuff will be bought upfront rest will be license manufactured locally.

I got this from an article :
So far, Poland has ordered $12 billion worth of weaponry from Korea.
The deals include 180 K2 Black Panther tanks, 200 K9 Thunder howitzers, 48 FA-50 light attack aircraft, and 218 K239 Chunmoo rocket launchers.

These are the immediate things from Korea for which they are paying 12 billion USD, rest license manufacture.

Meet Europe’s coming military superpower: Poland

Warsaw is turning to major arms deals with South Korea to establish supremacy in Continental Europe.

www.politico.eu

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Poland's military purchases since ukraine war. This is what being urgent about military modernization looks like :

View attachment 196583

That is 27 regiments of tanks, 20-25 regiments of mechanised infantry, 30 regiments of self propelled artillery, 4-5 squadrons of attack helos, 2-3 squadrons of trainer-fighters, 20+ regiments of mbrls, that is some serious order book.

But why only 1 battalion of HIMARS?