DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Chinmoy]

You know they won't learn shit from it. The motivation is simply not there.

HJT-16
HJT-36
Turbomeca Shakti
Brahmos integration Su-30
ALH Dhruv
Naval Dhruv
LUH

 

[AnantS]

You know they won't learn shit from it. The motivation is simply not there.

You know work done on Turbomeca Ardiden 1 Shakti gave HAL to go fwd on HFTE?

 

[Lonewarrior]

HJT-16
HJT-36
Turbomeca Shakti
Brahmos integration Su-30
ALH Dhruv
Naval Dhruv
LUH

HJT-16 was copied from BAC Jet Provost.
HJT-36 is inspired by BAE Hawk.
Shakti can't be named without naming Turbomeca.
Integrating a 2.5t Russian missile on a 8t capacity Russian jet isn't something to brag.
ALH Dhruv was designed by Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, it even resembles MBB/Kawasaki BK 117.
Nothing much for N-ALH.
LUH is something new.

Out of 7 things you mentioned only the last one is something that can be termed as something not innovative but still something completely new. See this 6:1 ratio? This is the problem.
We simply play catch-up with other countries, and that too with the tech they're about to retire.

US military had close to zero experience with coaxial rotor, though there was a brief stint with pusher props during AH-56 but it was more or less negligible. Still when it came to develop the next helicopter they didn't follow incremental innovation or tried to do what China or Russia were doing. They were bold enough to try their hands on radical designs.

This is what @skunk works was trying to say.

 

[Sayman Ame]

eat shit HAL

Just when I was wondering why there were so many "likes" on the post instead of "anger" emojis.
You've caught the sentiment right in 3 words. GG.

How fkin compromised should you be to even have the guts to put out a statement like that, being an Indian PSU that too!

 

[Chinmoy]

HJT-16 was copied from BAC Jet Provost.
HJT-36 is inspired by BAE Hawk.
Shakti can't be named without naming Turbomeca.
Integrating a 2.5t Russian missile on a 8t capacity Russian jet isn't something to brag.
ALH Dhruv was designed by Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, it even resembles MBB/Kawasaki BK 117.
Nothing much for N-ALH.
LUH is something new.

Out of 7 things you mentioned only the last one is something that can be termed as something not innovative but still something completely new. See this 6:1 ratio? This is the problem.
We simply play catch-up with other countries, and that too with the tech they're about to retire.

US military had close to zero experience with coaxial rotor, though there was a brief stint with pusher props during AH-56 but it was more or less negligible. Still when it came to develop the next helicopter they didn't follow incremental innovation or tried to do what China or Russia were doing. They were bold enough to try their hands on radical designs.

This is what @skunk works was trying to say.

HJT-16 was copied from BAC Jet Provost.

Means HAL had learned by studying the design. First step of learning by HAL.

HJT-36 is inspired by BAE Hawk.

Means again HAL learned from the whatever assembly they had done with Hawk.

Shakti can't be named without naming Turbomeca.

No one disagrees. But it too is the output of license production of Artouste which made HAL capable enough to codevelop Shakti. In this segment we are far better then Tejas engine because of what we learnt from license production.

Integrating a 2.5t Russian missile on a 8t capacity Russian jet isn't something to brag.

Maybe 1220 crore is nothing for you. But for Finance ministry, this small amount matters. And it is the license production which gave HAL enough confidence to do the airframe design change.

ALH Dhruv was designed by Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, it even resembles MBB/Kawasaki BK 117.
Nothing much for N-ALH.
LUH is something new.

Again a point which no one disagree. But it is the cooperation and learning of Chetak and Cheetal, which resulted in ALH, N-ALH and LUH and may be NUH too in feature.

Now coming to the most favourite part of members here. Comparing us with US, China, Russia, Timbaktoo, Havana............ What percentage of budget we spend in R&D?

 

[Lonewarrior]

First step of learning...

From learning how to make a jet trainer by studying Provost in 1960s to learning how to make a bomb by studying Spice 250 in 2020s; the only thing I see common is learning.

Indeed learning is a lifelong process but still don't you think sometimes it becomes necessary to lead by example instead of just keeping learning since the last 60 years?

What percentage of budget we spend in R&D?

Perhaps the same percentage that ISRO spent to find out presence of water on moon before NASA.

Definitely capital helps in technological achievement but still what matters the most is will.

 

[Chinmoy]

From learning how to make a jet trainer by studying Provost in 1960s to learning how to make a bomb by studying Spice 250 in 2020s; the only thing I see common is learning.

Indeed learning is a lifelong process but still don't you think sometimes it becomes necessary to lead by example instead of just keeping learning since the last 60 years?

Perhaps the same percentage that ISRO spent to find out presence of water on moon before NASA.

Definitely capital helps in technological achievement but still what matters the most is will.

Your last line is the key. What matters is will. But could you point where HAL lacked will? But yeah, I could point where the government as a whole lacked will to back the organization.
It was not HAL who ditched RR for engine JV in case of Marut. It was not HAL who asked for license production. But when you need fund for research and gets barely funded to keep your assembly line alive, its keeping yourself alive which matters.
BAE Hawk entered Indian service in 2008, but IJT-Sitara or HJT-36 flew back in 2003. So it was basically the learning of HJT-16 which propagated into 36.
So unlike OFB, HAL has learnt from their failures and what ever screwdriver-giri they had done in past to design whatever we are seeing today. But in the end, its funding and support of government which matters the most. You can't expect them to involve in R&D when all they have been asked to is to do license manufacturing.

 

[Johny_Baba]

HJT-16 was copied from BAC Jet Provost.

Kiran ?
well the brain beind Kiran, an aviation engineer-scientist named Raj Mahindra himself was former employee in various british aviation companies;

there is an entire separate episode of how he got british passport by virtue of staying there and marrying a british woman (yes he was born-raised in india and by that virtue held indian citizenship) and post-independence constitution and laws here put him in catch-22 situation as he had to retain only one citizenship but then HAL team members ;suggested; him to keep a mum over it - though someone must have leaked this info out of the org as it eventually reached to MoD and even parliament where opportunistic opposition made a big issue out of it REEEEEEEEEE HOW CAN A BRITISH NATIONAL CAN WORK ON MUH HIGHLY AMBITIONS PROJECT LIKE LCA -like completely overlooking how he literally was involved in three jet programs here = Kiran,Marut and HF-74 (before it got cancelled etc) and now working on 4th with then LCA

then DM P V Narasimha Rao and Defense Attache Arunachalam tried their best to defuse entire situation at cost of constitutional and legal proceedings and allegations and all...but eventually then newcomer MoD (coming after Rao due to cabinet reshuffle) decided that he has to go and despite strong protest against such politically motivated decision by almost all side be it HAL-DRDO and even then Defense Secretory he was dropped out ot Tejas - and we lost good 6-7 years of progress due to his leave

 

[Lonewarrior]

But could you point where HAL lacked will?

It's not just about HAL, it's about government, it's about military...it's about majority of Indians.

Military could have easily asked for a design that was ahead of peer. Military could have given fixed requirements instead of vague. But do they?
Government could have treated PSUs as it's children to nurture them like every other country does instead of preferring foreign suppliers and literally abandoning them. But do they?
PSUs could have easily made 4-5 teams to compete with each other with alternate designs for a same project and in the end made something world-class. But do they?

 

[skunk works]

It's not just about HAL, it's about government, it's about military...it's about majority of Indians.

Military could have easily asked for a design that was ahead of peer. Military could have given fixed requirements instead of vague. But do they?
Government could have treated PSUs as it's children to nurture them like every other country does instead of preferring foreign suppliers and literally abandoning them. But do they?
PSUs could have easily made 4-5 teams to compete with each other with alternate designs for a same project and in the end made something world-class. But do they?

And these failures are uniquely Indian. Soviet design bureaus achieved far more while having bureaucracy and rivalry.

 

[tommy]

It's not just about HAL, it's about government, it's about military...it's about majority of Indians.

Military could have easily asked for a design that was ahead of peer. Military could have given fixed requirements instead of vague. But do they?
Government could have treated PSUs as it's children to nurture them like every other country does instead of preferring foreign suppliers and literally abandoning them. But do they?
PSUs could have easily made 4-5 teams to compete with each other with alternate designs for a same project and in the end made something world-class. But do they?

Indians are mostly status quoists. You cannot get major innovations out of nowhere. It takes generations to change the mindset and you also need to be surrounded by similar people around you. It is the reason Indians who innovate are mostly in the west. Until then nothing wrong with catching up.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Koi jaldi answer karo...

Rafael BNET combines 3 things:

1. SDR
2. Data link
3. IFF

Yes or No?

Ummnn...isn't it just SDR?

This is the rough working of all three

Simple transceiver capable of sending or/and receiving basic encrypted data; datalink. Mainly used on missiles to give signals. Add the capability to transmit or received voice or text to the data link and it becomes a SDR. Or add a long range antenna and an algorithm to do radio interrogation and you'll have a IFF.

So technically it's very easy for Rafael to configure their SDR as IFF or Datalinks but if I'm not wrong then as of now they have showcased BNET only as a SDR. Though it has many variants like BNET Air and Vehicle and Tactical.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Uhh yeah the epitome of Indian Defense PSUs the great Arjun tank is so efficient, the army is lying on their faces it definitely does not have fatal flaws which absolutely do not render it a heating metal box. You mofo don't understand basic economics, Govt. PSUs which are govt funded and controlled use government money to buy Government tenders and the Quotations are definitely not leaked to them before by their brethren. Govt. companies buying Govt tenders with Govt money to produce tanks like Arjun is the biggest fuckin scam.

You do not seem to understand that India is a control freak state defense sector is highly regulated and the bureaucracy which is running this is highly corrupt at every stage there is bribing and at last Private companies are for profit they dun not involve if they gotta loose all their profits on these greedy wolves. Same happened with Anil ambani he was robbed by INC mofo's with "party donations"

If something is cheap doesn't mean it is good, if that thing breaks down before reaching the battle field it's of no damn use.


If Indian PSUs were efficient there was NO BLOODY NEED for India to acquire 85% of defense equipments by export

now you go and read this
View attachment 195464

Reasons for not getting Arjun is neither that it is bad or it is poorly manufactured but other ones. You have shown your level of knowledge with this question only. This has been answered to the death in this forum with plausible logical and information.
Same army bhaiya also wants 48 jetpacks when normal infantry looks like even worst than WW2 soldiers period. Same army bhaiya can't even make one RFP reach its conclusion due to unrealistic and stupid QRs. People may not see but the reality is now that things are happening in front of our eyes due to internet. More and more people are being skeptical about various things done in forces and that's good blind faith is nothing but recipe for disaster and when it will hit, people will run around pointing fingers.
Here is a simple example, naval Alh had a issue in such a long time, and twitter expert and forces veterans some famous for their anti atmanirbhar rant came running. Just ask them simple technical questions and ask for compartive figures globally, and they will ignore it. Why? Do I even have to spell it for you.


Thank you bhaiya, pls get out of this country, chill in America and snot a lot of cocaine, pvt made one and superior, fight for basic rights, get lobbied by big pvt cos, in famous words in the end you will own nothing and you will be forever happy. And maybe some feminist can tame you and make you a home husband. Win win with consoomerism.

You said Indian Psu not efficient yet won tender against a pvt cos, and you start crying, why do you cry, the winner is the forces who have to pay for cheaper quoted price. I would rather have 3000 cheap T90s instead of some 500ish Leopards 2s like muh western pvt superior tech.

Well, if Indian defense plans to go the same way of Britain, France and Germany while having more or less similiar defence budgets as of yet. Guys time to leave the boat, even Pakis will beat our asses in that case.



So, here is the thing, Gov. should do whatever it has to make our PSUs into Norinco and AVIC rather than counting on some Pvt cos, never ever has there been a pvt cos which can deliver reasonable equipments in mass with comparatively cheap prices.
I absolutely don't agree with this short and Swift war thing. And all the power to mass numbers of equipments.

View attachment 196367

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Reasons for not getting Arjun is neither that it is bad or it is poorly manufactured but other ones. You have shown your level of knowledge with this question only. This has been answered to the death in this forum with plausible logical and information.
Same army bhaiya also wants 48 jetpacks when normal infantry looks like even worst than WW2 soldiers period. Same army bhaiya can't even make one RFP reach its conclusion due to unrealistic and stupid QRs. People may not see but the reality is now that things are happening in front of our eyes due to internet. More and more people are being skeptical about various things done in forces and that's good blind faith is nothing but recipe for disaster and when it will hit, people will run around pointing fingers.
Here is a simple example, naval Alh had a issue in such a long time, and twitter expert and forces veterans some famous for their anti atmanirbhar rant came running. Just ask them simple technical questions and ask for compartive figures globally, and they will ignore it. Why? Do I even have to spell it for you.


Thank you bhaiya, pls get out of this country, chill in America and snot a lot of cocaine, pvt made one and superior, fight for basic rights, get lobbied by big pvt cos, in famous words in the end you will own nothing and you will be forever happy. And maybe some feminist can tame you and make you a home husband. Win win with consoomerism.

You said Indian Psu not efficient yet won tender against a pvt cos, and you start crying, why do you cry, the winner is the forces who have to pay for cheaper quoted price. I would rather have 3000 cheap T90s instead of some 500ish Leopards 2s like muh western pvt superior tech.

Well, if Indian defense plans to go the same way of Britain, France and Germany while having more or less similiar defence budgets as of yet. Guys time to leave the boat, even Pakis will beat our asses in that case.



So, here is the thing, Gov. should do whatever it has to make our PSUs into Norinco and AVIC rather than counting on some Pvt cos, never ever has there been a pvt cos which can deliver reasonable equipments in mass with comparatively cheap prices.
I absolutely don't agree with this short and Swift war thing. And all the power to mass numbers of equipments.

View attachment 196367

yes, mass of ok equipment is fine as in the end logistics of your entire Warmachine and the manpower you can bring to bear will be more important than the sheer quality of equipment in our regional context. my view has always been high no of common sense basic bitch weapon systems should be inducted which are fine and maybe good instead of small no of emergency foreign equipment. the best successes of our military in terms of equipment have always been the equipment where we stayed with a matured platform that was indigenous while it's quirks and faults were found and ironed out while a lot of them were inducted and sub-components were indigenized.

a lot of these so called major powers in so called europe would have been absolutely trampled if not for basic bitch societ equipment and sheer manpower of the ukrainians that are being expended to keep the russians away and still they lost territory. the european finances changed little and if they were the ones facing the Russians,then in a few month at max, they would have run out of supplies and their feminist and woke population and immigrants would have fled the draft.

let us come to the realization that many of the assumptions regarding war of contemporary europeans is wrong,these :
1.only the highest tech matter.
2. demographics and culture for war do not matter.
3. you can keep a small high tech-high trained force and win against sheer brute numbers of ok weapons.

in india's case,for example - better induct atags and dhanush in the 500s instead of relying on super duper weapons systems such as 10 c17s and 80-100 odd m777s and overwhelm our opponents in the coming conflicts that are bound to be started by them or even us.better induct ak 203, or some indian produced gun in large amounts and forcefully produce them outside of license in the coming war saying F u to the license partner instead ofsearching for the super duper rifle aping some western military. then stay with the rifle while inducting home grown attachments and other equipment peripheries for that rifle making it into a decent gun practical for 80-90 percent of the situation.

 

[rao.abhirav]

Reasons for not getting Arjun is neither that it is bad or it is poorly manufactured but other ones. You have shown your level of knowledge with this question only. This has been answered to the death in this forum with plausible logical and information.
Same army bhaiya also wants 48 jetpacks when normal infantry looks like even worst than WW2 soldiers period. Same army bhaiya can't even make one RFP reach its conclusion due to unrealistic and stupid QRs. People may not see but the reality is now that things are happening in front of our eyes due to internet. More and more people are being skeptical about various things done in forces and that's good blind faith is nothing but recipe for disaster and when it will hit, people will run around pointing fingers.
Here is a simple example, naval Alh had a issue in such a long time, and twitter expert and forces veterans some famous for their anti atmanirbhar rant came running. Just ask them simple technical questions and ask for compartive figures globally, and they will ignore it. Why? Do I even have to spell it for you.


Thank you bhaiya, pls get out of this country, chill in America and snot a lot of cocaine, pvt made one and superior, fight for basic rights, get lobbied by big pvt cos, in famous words in the end you will own nothing and you will be forever happy. And maybe some feminist can tame you and make you a home husband. Win win with consoomerism.

You said Indian Psu not efficient yet won tender against a pvt cos, and you start crying, why do you cry, the winner is the forces who have to pay for cheaper quoted price. I would rather have 3000 cheap T90s instead of some 500ish Leopards 2s like muh western pvt superior tech.

Well, if Indian defense plans to go the same way of Britain, France and Germany while having more or less similiar defence budgets as of yet. Guys time to leave the boat, even Pakis will beat our asses in that case.



So, here is the thing, Gov. should do whatever it has to make our PSUs into Norinco and AVIC rather than counting on some Pvt cos, never ever has there been a pvt cos which can deliver reasonable equipments in mass with comparatively cheap prices.
I absolutely don't agree with this short and Swift war thing. And all the power to mass numbers of equipments.

View attachment 196367

Yes you're right in saying Defense PSUs win bid because they don't have to earn their own god damn money. Their budgets come with their rations and driver driven cars annually. As I said Govt. charter companies buying Govt. tenders with Govt. allocated money that's no big deal.

And all the power to mass numbers of equipments.

You said mass number of equipment matters... fine have a lakh centurion tanks then and put them against Bradleys or M1 Abrams or any other fuckin tank with ATGMs. Numbers do matter but only in a isolated and deserved space rest is upto the latest technology. If you think only mass produced things are best then fine WW2 era torpedo bombers were easy to mass produce and cheap go build torpedo bombers today for cheap and kamikaze it into ships

 

[Lonewarrior]

You said mass number of equipment matters... fine have a lakh centurion tanks then and put them against Bradleys or M1 Abrams or any other fuckin tank with ATGMs. Numbers do matter but only in a isolated and deserved space rest is upto the latest technology. If you think only mass produced things are best then fine WW2 era torpedo bombers were easy to mass produce and cheap go build torpedo bombers today for cheap and kamikaze it into ships

I think you went bit too far; that's not how costly vs cheap military equipment works. You don't go back to torpedo bombers to mass produce.

Just look at the Soviet doctrine of armoured warfare and you'll figure how this combination of mass produced and advanced works.

Future : Limited number of advanced but expensive T-14s complemented by large number of cheap but less effective T-90s.
Current : Limited number of advanced but expensive T-90s complemented by large number of cheap but less effective T-80s.
Past : Limited number of advanced but expensive T-80s complemented by large number of cheap but less effective T-72s.

 

[Gyyan]

 

[NutCracker]

Blades are at the height of forehead for a guy sitting inside..

 

[rao.abhirav]

I think you went bit too far; that's not how costly vs cheap military equipment works. You don't go back to torpedo bombers to mass produce.

Just look at the Soviet doctrine of armoured warfare and you'll figure how this combination of mass produced and advanced works.

Future : Limited number of advanced but expensive T-14s complemented by large number of cheap but less effective T-90s.
Current : Limited number of advanced but expensive T-90s complemented by large number of cheap but less effective T-80s.
Past : Limited number of advanced but expensive T-80s complemented by large number of cheap but less effective T-72s.

I agree to the charge of Hyperbole but as we have seen in Ukraine,

Russia's old model tanks are getting hammered by ATGMs and Javelins there are infact slowing their offensive and lowering their morale although I do understand since Russia's defense doctrine is inherently defensive they are having a hard time going offensive.

I believe a long war today is as good as a war lost, it should be short and sweet

 

[Lonewarrior]

old model tanks

Now that's something completely different. I was just mentioning how this combination of high tech and low tech works.

In case of Russian tanks then it has nothing to do with old model. Perhaps on the contrary the oldest model of tank they have; the T-62s are perhaps the most advanced tank currently in Russian arsenal. The single problem with Russian tanks is the position of autoloader. Period.
Be it T-64 or T-72 or T-80 or T-90 or even the most advanced T-14...all are doomed to get bonked by even cheap AT weapons like NLAW just because of the design flaw of having an autoloader below the turret.

If you have problem with my example of Russian doctrine then I can quote Polish doctrine. Small number of advanced F-35s complemented by greater number of cheaper FA-50s.