DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Okabe Rintarou]

Auto-loader limitations of the T-series tanks is one major issue. Then there is the tank barrel pressure limitations as well.

IA is currently looking at developing 650mm APFSDS capability (which I think is the max Russians are able to do for now with the autoloader limitations in place). That requires a new barrel and DRDO is working on it since around 2018 at least.

Looking at the timelines for that 650mm APFSDS project, seems like the original timelines for 2019-20 were pushed back. And its 2022 now, still no progress.

 

[Chinmoy]

Obvisouly defensive roles....25 nang main kaise offensive karenge.!!!!!

Bhai..... Tum toh rehne hi do.

 

[Jambudweepa]

Specific fuel consumption of Turbojet engine is higher then Turbo-fan engine.

Long range cruise missile always use turbofan . Pakistan babar missile also use turbofan , probably imported from china . North korea has somehow developed a turbofan engine capable of powering 1500km range cruise missile !

Why North Korea’s New Cruise Missile Matters

North Korea’s newest cruise missile test shows its nuclear capabilities are growing. Here’s what policymakers from the United States and elsewhere should do now to set up future negotiators for success.

carnegieendowment.org

 

[Jambudweepa]

@Chinmoy was looking at their website . The startup mentioned is developing turbofan as well

Aero Engines | paninian-main

www.paninian.com

 

[Chinmoy]

@Chinmoy was looking at their website . The startup mentioned is developing turbofan as well

Aero Engines | paninian-main

www.paninian.com

And Baba Kalyani already made one.

 

[Delta Squad]

I never claimed it to be an OP system, unlike your pathetic ilk of Arjunk fanboys. I just said it's less crappy than your favorite waifu, which is a fact.


Not for long, though.

https://newsonair.com/2022/02/25/defence-minister-signs-rs-1075-contact-with-bel-for-indigenous-t-90-tank-commander-sights/

Besides, even the Arjun MkIs do not come with a CITS, so there is that.
Anyway, these are just plug-and-play systems that can be retrofitted into any design with enough room, it's not something that makes or breaks a tank, unlike the glaring deficiencies in Arjun's basic design itself, which renders it completely unfit for combat. I will come to those shortly.

So effing what?? Even the Abrams up until the SEPV2 and most of the Leopard 2 models do not come with an APU installed (although the provision is left), so does it make those tanks overall inferior to Arjun??


Of course, they don't. Why would they?? They weren't made keeping Indian climate conditions in mind after all.

You know which other tank didn't come with an AC unit?? - Abrams. But the Americans didn't need to develop a contraption like those Peltier suits for their crew members, operating in the middle east and Afghanistan. Heck, the Syrians are using their T-90s with no trouble at all either.

So, ergo, either you're making a mountain out of a molehill just to push your dumb narrative or you are proclaiming our men in uniform to be a bunch of pussies - now take your pick. I don't know which is worse.


Which are still merginally better than those used by the Arjun!!

Not really. Russians have got better rounds for their T-90As, which has got the same gun and autoloaders as our T-90S. Well, with the T-90S, you will at least have the possibility of importing better rounds but the same can not be said for Arjuns though. So I don't see how it's a disadvantage for the T-90s.

I can walk faster in fact, it's just 4 km/hr which is abysmal. And that's pretty much the only parameter where Arjun comfortably beats out the T-90S, as I've been saying.

No, you fucking retard!! It's your beloved Arjun that has the worse side protection of the two!! Here, take a looksy -

As you can see, the base composite armor provides a uniform level of protection from the frontal 60-degree arc (which is the norm for NATO MBTs as well except for Abrams), which means the crew compartment is completely covered from the frontal arc. They achieve it by designing the turret in such a way that would hide the weak sides and rear behind the front armor panels.

NATO achieved the same goal by adding more armor on the turret sides as can be seen here in this diagram -
1. Leclerc

2. Abrams -

3. Leopard 2 -

Unfortunately, Arjun follows neither of these two design philosophies as the developers had royally screwed up during its basic design phase.

It'd seem that the devs had decided to copy the design of Leopard2A4 but due to a complete lack of understanding of basic armor design, they completely fucked it up at multiple levels.

First, they forgot to add the the side armor panels on the turret as can be seen here -

As can be seen here, the crew compartment is basically exposed from the side.

And secondly, they forgot to leave any room for composite armor behind the gunner's sight unlike what can be seen in the Leopard2A4 turret photograph above.



It ain't something that can not be done with T-90S in rather short order if the need arises. And by the way, what of your Arjun?? Those things do not have side ERA panels either, so again, I don't see how it's loss for T-90.


Neither have the Abrams or leopards or Leclercs or the Arjun MkIs for that matter. And again, these are just plug-and-play systems, that were bought off the shelf and can be mounted on the T-90S if the Army deems them necessary. So get off your high horse already, kiddo, you are in over your head here.

I never claimed that you fucking retard!! Read before you type and post your reply!! I said they had basically the same FCS as the Arjun, developed by BEL!!
You could have saved yourself this embarrassment if you only could look at things with a dispassionate, unbiased rational mindset. But no, why would you?? Instead, you would start wailing and frothing your mouth like a retarded teenager just because someone dared to 'insult' your waifu Arjun-chan.



And again, where did I claim otherwise?? Did I not repeatedly mention Arjun's superiority in terms of mobility performance?? Dude, you are even a bigger retard than that other guy!! It's quite an achievement, really.


It's not about low profile or lack of APS, but rather those huge gaping weak spots in its armor coverage that renders it unfit for service.

View attachment 179634
The whole sections within the redlines are devoid of composite armor.
Now compare this to the T-90S -
View attachment 179639

Yeah, it's not even a contest.


Yep, totally. Arjun is an even worse piece of junk as compared to T-90s by most of the parameters.

And who gives a fuck where those subsystems come from as long as we have them?? And why does it suddenly become so big of an issue for you when the vast majority of the subsystems of your Arjun is imported as well?? Hypocrisy much??
Anyway, my point is, everything being equal, T-90S will kick Arjun's ass any day of the week.

That's high and mighty coming from you whose only contribution so far has been making random sweeping statements. Do you even know the meaning of being objective?? I doubt that.


Not if it happens to a literal abomination on tracks, it won't!!

Compared to Arjuns, it sure does.

Nope.

View attachment 179637

Well, if you are comparing Arjun with T-90, try to compare only those two. Why unnecessary bringing Abrams, Lecrecs, Leapord, Challenger etc. etc. in the middle. Becomes hard to follow the comparison.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Well, if you are comparing Arjun with T-90, try to compare only those two. Why unnecessary bringing Abrams, Lecrecs, Leapord, Challenger etc. etc. in the middle. Becomes hard to follow the comparison.

Because that is what the Arjun's armour could and should have been like. Its a massive tank and tanks of that size already exist with much better armour distribution. Its a showcase of how bad the Arjun turret design is. They just wasted a massive potential advantage.

 

[Jambudweepa]

And Baba Kalyani already made one.

View attachment 179654

120kgf = 1.** kn . Am i right ? It is very basic . Can power a small uav .

 

[ezsasa]

Dr Ajay Kumar’s tenure as defence secretary will be remembered as some of the most transformational years in India’s defence industry(both private and PSU).

=========

 

[Delta Squad]

Because that is what the Arjun's armour could and should have been like. Its a massive tank and tanks of that size already exist with much better armour distribution. Its a showcase of how bad the Arjun turret design is. They just wasted a massive potential advantage.

No denying that, as per I have seen, a new clean sheet turret for Mk2 was planned initially, but was axed for reason unknown.
Anyway, my point is, this argument was Arjun vs T90, not Arjun vs rest of the world tank, right?

 

[Chinmoy]

120kgf = 1.** kn . Am i right ? It is very basic . Can power a small uav .

You are not getting my point. Making a basic TF or a TJ is easy. But such is not the case of making a mission specific TF engine. When BF has already tested a basic 120 kgf engine, what is stopping them to make and test a 480 kgf one like Manik?

Same is the case with those students who have made a TJ engine. They are working on the nuances of TF. So saying that a strategic project like ITCM should be passed on to private company is pure nonsense.

 

[Jambudweepa]

You are not getting my point. Making a basic TF or a TJ is easy. But such is not the case of making a mission specific TF engine. When BF has already tested a basic 120 kgf engine, what is stopping them to make and test a 480 kgf one like Manik?

Same is the case with those students who have made a TJ engine. They are working on the nuances of TF. So saying that a strategic project like ITCM should be passed on to private company is pure nonsense.

This engine has faced many failures . Not saying it shd stop . There shd be parallel development .

But disagree when you say private sector company should nt be involved in ITCM project . Was nt russia supplying engine for nirvaya ? When we are involving Russian companies and other foreign companies in our strategic projects , what crime did our private sector company commit .

Industry exercise finds India ‘underestimated’ future engine demand

Currently, India's engine demand is met by foreign imports and by state-run defense companies working under license.

www.defensenews.com

 

[omaebakabaka]

This engine has faced many failures . Not saying it shd stop . There shd be parallel development .

But disagree when you say private sector company should nt be involved in ITCM project . Was nt russia supplying engine for nirvaya ? When we are involving Russian companies and other foreign companies in our strategic projects , what crime did our private sector company commit .

Industry exercise finds India ‘underestimated’ future engine demand

Currently, India's engine demand is met by foreign imports and by state-run defense companies working under license.

www.defensenews.com

I don't think private companies have the base technologies to come up with complicated things like TF/TJ, they are basically integrating COTS or partnering with other players. This scam is very visible now from drones to everything else, GOI needs to filter out noise.
All products are stuck for the most part in spec paralysis and no induction is happening whether its drdo or private in numbers.....from ships to arjun to anythign else....common sense says first have a product even if its a generation old but deploy them....name one product that has taken a mass production capability outside some radars, missiles and strategic areas?

As for Iran/NK, they might be just old Russian/Chinese engines but in Iran's case, they go for practicality and may come up with something that works and not like us stuck in creating the "best" in the world or "X gen" something to match some "X" product from some country.....we need both but practicality is the most important as Iran is doing, low cost deterrent solutions but effective.

 

[Chinmoy]

This engine has faced many failures . Not saying it shd stop . There shd be parallel development .

This engine was tested 3 times till now with the initial two being success. Moreover how could you say that it failed this time?

But disagree when you say private sector company should nt be involved in ITCM project . Was nt russia supplying engine for nirvaya ? When we are involving Russian companies and other foreign companies in our strategic projects , what crime did our private sector company commit .

Private industries should be involved and they should invest in R&D effort. But are they?
When it comes to R&D, they do prefer forming a joint venture. Should they be blamed for this? IMO No. But they should come forward to gain ToT from DRDO. Are they doing it?

When it comes to Russia there is nothing like private sector there. As for China, US or any of the western counterparts, look at where the technology is getting developed at. They are developing it at educational institutes. We are too far behind in curve doing it and only recently started bringing in academia into R&D sector. Instead of making a TJ engine prototype, our academia should work on applied physics and core metallurgy with Private company collaboration for funding. But are we doing it? Even you could make a turbojet or ramjet prototype.

I am not against Private industries involvement. I am against the way they are involved in it. Making a prototype and asking for government fund is not the way they are going to succeed. TATA is doing a commendable job in creating incubators for core technology development. Others are just doing a lip service and apart from work culture, I don't see a huge difference in between them and DPSUs.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Because that is what the Arjun's armour could and should have been like. Its a massive tank and tanks of that size already exist with much better armour distribution. Its a showcase of how bad the Arjun turret design is. They just wasted a massive potential advantage.

Its funny that people still think that the gunner sits directly behind the gunner sight without any slab of armour separating them.
Something which has been clarified on DFI million times in the past.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Its funny that people still think that the gunner sits directly behind the gunner sight without any slab of armour separating them.
Something which has been clarified on DFI million times in the past.

Its been clarified enough times that the armour is there behind the gunner sight but its not thick enough. I think it was around 450mm? Not sure. But I'd reccomend you speak to an expert like @Blood+ about the whole Arjun gun sight thingy. He has the most experience in that debate.

 

[Jambudweepa]

This engine was tested 3 times till now with the initial two being success. Moreover how could you say that it failed this time?



Private industries should be involved and they should invest in R&D effort. But are they?
When it comes to R&D, they do prefer forming a joint venture. Should they be blamed for this? IMO No. But they should come forward to gain ToT from DRDO. Are they doing it?

When it comes to Russia there is nothing like private sector there. As for China, US or any of the western counterparts, look at where the technology is getting developed at. They are developing it at educational institutes. We are too far behind in curve doing it and only recently started bringing in academia into R&D sector. Instead of making a TJ engine prototype, our academia should work on applied physics and core metallurgy with Private company collaboration for funding. But are we doing it? Even you could make a turbojet or ramjet prototype.

I am not against Private industries involvement. I am against the way they are involved in it. Making a prototype and asking for government fund is not the way they are going to succeed. TATA is doing a commendable job in creating incubators for core technology development. Others are just doing a lip service and apart from work culture, I don't see a huge difference in between them and DPSUs.

The last test i remember , was tested for 150km . And we have been hearing abt the engine for several years . The testing must go on . But there must be parallel development with involvement of private companies as well .

Abt private sector nt investing in R nd D . Where ll funding come from . Unless it is big name like TATA . Govt has to handhold , provide required infra in early stages . Why do we complain abt talent migration then .

 

[Kuldeepm952]

APU tender

https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/admin/writereaddata/upload/project/project_file/APU.pdf

CITV from BEL
https://www.indiatvnews.com/busines...-commander-sight-t-90-tanks-2022-02-28-761951

rest are dismal by current standards, ammunition and protection chief among them

The citv you are saying is basically a retrofitting of earlier commander night sight with thermal imaging and laser range finding capability

The way I understand how this works is that commander has to to move with coupola like a submarine periscope to find targets and this is not a remote system like COAPS. Still I don't understand why are we penny pinching when local indian coaps is already in service with Arjun mk1a, just put the damn thing on T90S, will save on spares too.
I think that the commanders thermal imaging sight programme was concluded long time ago, have seen this infographic from like 2015 or so and the upgrade plan only came recent and hence this sight being implemented. Still very stupid of using older juggad when new best thing is available. This thing will suffer from same problem as older due to design, that is limited commanders view arcs, any fitment of rcws and aps will lead to further problems

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Auto-loader limitations of the T-series tanks is one major issue. Then there is the tank barrel pressure limitations as well.

IA is currently looking at developing 650mm APFSDS capability (which I think is the max Russians are able to do for now with the autoloader limitations in place). That requires a new barrel and DRDO is working on it since around 2018 at least.


Its 0 degrees. No doubt about it. Check out the l:d ratio of the DRDO Mk2 round. And the length of its long rod.

This stupid text editor of xenforo, I can't write L without the :d turning into a dumb emoji.

DRDO normally tests its APFSDS rounds against a 230mm plate kept at an angle of 63°, now whether the APFSDS round was fired from an elevated position or standard position remains to be seen, but a DoP of greater than 515mm at 2km is pretty respectable given the size limitations of the autoloader in the T-72 and T-90.
Anyway, once the SAMHO CLGM comes into service for the T-90 fleet, it really does not matter which tank its up against, it will slice through it.
Western APFSDS have higher DoP due to a single long rod penetrator which is not possible on the T-72 and T-90, also these rounds use depleted uranium, which has an adverse effect on the tank crew aswell over an extended period of time.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

DRDO normally tests its APFSDS rounds against a 230mm plate kept at an angle of 63°, now whether the APFSDS round was fired from an elevated position or standard position remains to be seen, but a DoP of greater than 515mm at 2km is pretty respectable given the size limitations of the autoloader in the T-72 and T-90.
Anyway, once the SAMHO CLGM comes into service for the T-90 fleet, it really does not matter which tank its up against, it will slice through it.

That 530mm DoP won't defeat frontal of a T-90S or a Chinese Type-99. To say nothing about the Western behemoths. I do agree about the autoloader limitations being a b!tch, but DRDO FSAPDS round for Arjun is not much better.

SAMHO CLGM is also good, but only against tanks without Active Protection. Against tanks with active protection, APFSDS is your only bet.

BTW, anyone know what is the frontal armour RHAe of a Paki T-80UD and VT-4?