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Blood+

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Regarding mobility of Arjun mk1a , it has hydropneumatic suspension . Provides Great stability and accuracy of fire while moving .
Yeah, while the hydrogas suspensions do help, they are not the be all and end all of everything tank. For example, the Abrams still makes use of torsion-bar suspension and they have no problem with main gun accuracy (or at least I'm not aware of it if it does).
Power to weight ration of t90s is 19.6 . Not sure which engine ll be used in Arjun mk1a 1800hp , 1500 hp or 1400hp . If someone knows reply . In any case it should be above 20 .
It's the same 1400 BHP for MkIA as well, which would put its power-weight ratio at 20.9, so not that much better.
Kanchan armour is in both tank . Indian t90 does nt have russian armour .
True but the T-90S has got a lot more of its surface area covered by composite armor as compared to Arjun due the former's superior design.
Arjun ll use 3rd generation fire control system of tunbo imaging . Dont know abt t90 .
Catherine-FC for T-90S with Tata supplied FCS.
The real issue many people raise is smooth bore vs rifled . The 125mm smooth bore used by indian t90 is developed by DRDO . Not sure why we dint do the same for Arjun , if we cld do it . May be army wanted it that way .

Indian T90 is not same . It has many components from thales , isreal and drdo .
Nothing to add here.
 

samsaptaka

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Some additional Info,
> the first time then govt 'proposed' to purchase Mirage-2000 was in april 1980 via then defense secretory K. P. A Menon
> IAF Marshalls and Officers in that meeting replied that their budget was already tight and it would be extremely difficult to purchase such expensive jets under such scenario
> Yet, SOMEHOW then govt was adamant for this deal, so much that they alloted separate funds for this 🤷‍♂️
> weapons that we got with the deal consisted MATRA R.530, Magic-R.550, MATRA Super 530D (do note that this version of the missile wasn't even ready for Mirage-2000 back then 🤷‍♂️ it was going through development-testing-induction etc stages and all of it was finally done in 1988 about 3 years later we received all of first batch of Mirage-2000 here!!) and BLG-66 Belouga Cluster Bomb - all of these was being made by MATRA
> SOMEHOW this same Dassault and MATRA that previously agreed to partener with the Greeks for their order of 36 jets for Hellenic Air Force decided to refuse to come together for jets meant for IAF under this Indian deal - and Dassault insisted that we go through a separate deal with MATRA because back then those jets were only compatible with weapons made by them 🤷‍♂️ (and likewise even we didn't have much french weapons in our then aerial arsenal that could possibly be used on these newer jets) - and we had to pay additional some 300 Crores to MATRA for just weapons!! Each MATRA-R.530 costed us 10 Lakh back then and Each Magic-R.550 costed 25 Lakh and dunno what we paid for those Cluster Bombs; but certain report of IAF that evaluated prices we paid with the Greek order noted it that WE PAID ABOUT 50 PERCENT MORE PRICE OF THE WEAPONS TO MATRA BECAUSE OF THIS DELIBERATE ;BHAAGIDAARI; BETWEEN THEM AND ARM-TWISTING THEY DID TO US 🤷‍♂️ :facepalm:
> Notably, even other customers of Mirage-2000 faced some bakchodi with their orders, for e.g. UAE additionally asked for italian made avionics as well as integration of certain american missiles which was agreed by Dassault; but the jets they received weren't compatible with non-MATRA weaponry - and they filed a case in courts against this breach of contract; likewise Egypt also faced certain bakchodi with their order of 20 some ets and became so annoyed that they literally sent a delivery batch back to France

So, yeah...Mirage-2000 deal wasn't all goody goody thing as it involved certain kind of monetary leeching done by the French; and even after getting it all we further faced various issues due to US Embargo and related things. It was perhaps our first introduction to then emerging modern tech from western side like Fly-By-Wire system plus computerised avionics, and laser guided missiles etc; plus the jet itself was quite versatile so that way it was super useful - but wish the French hadn't done such kind of leeching with this deal...perhaps they would've benefitted by getting additional orders and what not and we could've gotten proper newer jets to supplement-replace older ones in time 😪
Reeks of corruption and dalals.
 

Blood+

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Well it is working, so it's good I guess .after all
The problem with Arjun is that it's just not that good of a design. I mean, take its frontal arc protection and then compare it to the T-90S. The latter is miles ahead. The same goes for the main gun and ammo. Arjun lags behind in two of the most critical parameters a tank can be judged against.
 

Johny_Baba

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Reeks of corruption and dalals.
Sadly yes but fortunately this is one of those deals that at least ended up giving us a worthwhile product irrespective of price tag, in long run we're seeing LCA-MCA-TEDBF programs forking from our experiences on Mirage-2000 and with (timely ?) introduction of emerging western 4th gen tech like FBW, Computerised Avionics etc it also may have helped us in ;benchmarking; what a proper modern jet requires back in '80s itself. And Mirage-2000 has served us nice enough wherever whenever required - kargil to balakot attack on terrorshit camps and guarding airspace of Ladakh.
This is why i was being wishful that if only the French had not leeched us in monetary ways back then...
So, yeah...Mirage-2000 deal wasn't all goody goody thing as it involved certain kind of monetary leeching done by the French; and even after getting it all we further faced various issues due to US Embargo and related things. It was perhaps our first introduction to then emerging modern tech from western side like Fly-By-Wire system plus computerised avionics, and laser guided missiles etc; plus the jet itself was quite versatile so that way it was super useful - but wish the French hadn't done such kind of leeching with this deal...perhaps they would've benefitted by getting additional orders and what not and we could've gotten proper newer jets to supplement-replace older ones in time 😪
 

Jambudweepa

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Yeah, while the hydrogas suspensions do help, they are not the be all and end all of everything tank. For example, the Abrams still makes use of torsion-bar suspension and they have no problem with main gun accuracy (or at least I'm not aware of it if it does).

It's the same 1400 BHP for MkIA as well, which would put its power-weight ratio at 20.9, so not that much better.

True but the T-90S has got a lot more of its surface area covered by composite armor as compared to Arjun due the former's superior design.

Catherine-FC for T-90S with Tata supplied FCS.

Nothing to add here.
Probably 1500 hp ll be used .

 

Steven Rogers

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Then the what the hell is stopping HAL/ADE/DRDO from working together to modify the AL31-FP for the Tejas and start producing copies ? They have not even attempted that, bloody shame ! If they attempt and fail its another story. But its ridiculous that they are not even thinking in that direction.
"Al31-FP for Tejas",you must be kidding right,Tejas was designed in 90s with a smaller powerplant and thrust requirement....
AL31 is over 1 meter longer and 50 percent more heavier than GE F404IN20,they never planned a 13.2mt long Tejas to have such a heavy weight class engine,heck this engine can't even be installed on medium combat aircraft....
 

flanker99

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"Al31-FP for Tejas",you must be kidding right,Tejas was designed in 90s with a smaller powerplant and thrust requirement....
AL31 is over 1 meter longer and 50 percent more heavier than GE F404IN20,they never planned a 13.2mt long Tejas to have such a heavy weight class engine,heck this engine can't even be installed on medium combat aircraft....
agree about everything but last part MWf like j10 ,f16 jets like run on same class of engines
 

binayak95

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"Al31-FP for Tejas",you must be kidding right,Tejas was designed in 90s with a smaller powerplant and thrust requirement....
AL31 is over 1 meter longer and 50 percent more heavier than GE F404IN20,they never planned a 13.2mt long Tejas to have such a heavy weight class engine,heck this engine can't even be installed on medium combat aircraft....
Not to mention the AL31 like all russi engines has a horrible low life between ovrhauls. its very maintainance intensive
 

Kuldeepm952

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The problem with Arjun is that it's just not that good of a design. I mean, take its frontal arc protection and then compare it to the T-90S. The latter is miles ahead. The same goes for the main gun and ammo. Arjun lags behind in two of the most critical parameters a tank can be judged against.
So, here's the thing, Indian T90S are subpar if not crap, so stop peddling t90 as some op tank

1.) It lacks citv, critical for many situations, have seen enough video tank commanders finding difficult to find targets and getting ploinked by Ukrainian infantry nearby, as the conflict showed, in hatch open condition, even a dji equipped grenade will take the vehicle out
2.) The bloody thing doesn't have an apu for silent overwatch and other applications
3.) Doesn't have environmental control unit and we have to come up with ice jacket like juggad for our soliders
4.) Our Tincans still use mango rounds, an extensive change of gun and loading system might be needed to fire more high pressure rounds
5.) You can probably run faster than the T90S can reverse, so in case of ambush, better pray and die rather than panicking
6.) Our Tincans have shit for side Armor, so a simple rpg7 rocket will take it out, atleast Russians have their shiny t90m with side era extensive coverage
7.) IA T90 doesn't have laser warning system so you only know when you get hit, shitty choice anyway
8.) Fire control system of T90S is so good according to you that IA is precisely trying to replace it with a new system
9.) IA is so amused by hp/tonne of T90S that it has even though about changing the engine
10.) And above all, the way IA procurement works, these Tincans will forever be Tincans going forward or atleast a part of them, floating of rfi again and again till the death of equipment, only things which seems to get approved and inducted are indigenous ones,so good luck

I know Arjun mk1a made a mistake with retention of turret and not adopting a redesigned turret with low profile and integrated aps. Took goddamn long coz IA in its all wisdom wanted to prove every upgrade before inducting. Well the way I know the other armies themselves inducts in batches with subsequent upgrades and we might have seen quicker implementation of upgrades the way IA wants if orders have been steady but nah, the search for unobtanium continues.

Are these enough points to show how good is shitcan is, bloody thing requires upgrade on every subsystem and addition of new systems, the only quantifiable upgrade on our T90 compared to T72 is that of Armor, gunners sight and FCS. The present T90S is a junk as it gets, the way it will be better is through indian systems addition and after adding so much upgrades, just how much is that Russian then, so would you agree then that what we got from Russia is basically substandard for modern warfare.

So the truth is videshi tank is literal Tincan in this age of 2020+, so stop your ranting, be objective and if you wanna say that IA is wise in its procurement, I would say it's not for many of its purchases in the past.
The best way going is with indigenous tanks and sticking for t90 won't improve our armored capability.

Just to be clear you don't have any affiliation with IA or Russia?
 
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Marliii

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So, here's the thing, Indian T90S are subpar if not crap, so stop peddling t90 as some op tank

1.) It lacks citv, critical for many situations, have seen enough video tank commanders finding difficult to find targets and getting ploinked by Ukrainian infantry nearby, as the conflict showed, in hatch open condition, even a dji equipped grenade will take the vehicle out
2.) The bloody thing doesn't have an apu for silent overwatch and other applications
3.) Doesn't have environmental control unit and we have to come up with ice jacket like juggad for our soliders
4.) Our Tincans still use mango rounds, an extensive change of gun and loading system might be needed to fire more high pressure rounds
5.) You can probably run faster than the T90S can reverse, so in case of ambush, better pray and die rather than panicking
6.) Our Tincans have shit for side Armor, so a simple rpg7 rocket will take it out, atleast Russians have their shiny t90m with side era extensive coverage
7.) IA T90 doesn't have laser warning system so you only know when you get hit, shitty choice anyway
8.) Fire control system of T90S is so good according to you that IA is precisely trying to replace it with a new system
9.) IA is so amused by hp/tonne of T90S that it has even though about changing the engine
10.) And above all, the way IA procurement works, these Tincans will forever be Tincans going forward or atleast a part of them, floating of rfi again and again till the death of equipment, only things which seems to get approved and inducted are indigenous ones,so good luck

I know Arjun mk1a made a mistake with retention of turret and not adopting a redesigned turret with low profile and integrated aps. Took goddamn long coz IA in its all wisdom wanted to prove every upgrade before inducting. Well the way I know the other armies themselves inducts in batches with subsequent upgrades and we might have seen quicker implementation of upgrades the way IA wants if orders have been steady but nah, the search for unobtanium continues.

Are these enough points to show how good is shitcan is, bloody thing requires upgrade on every subsystem and addition of new systems, the only quantifiable upgrade on our T90 compared to T72 is that of Armor, gunners sight and FCS. The present T90S is a junk as it gets, the way it will be better is through indian systems addition and after adding so much upgrades, just how much is that Russian then, so would you agree then that what we got from Russia is basically substandard for modern warfare.

So the truth is videshi tank is literal Tincan in this age of 2020+, so stop your ranting, be objective and if you wanna say that IA is wise in its procurement, I would say it's not for many of its purchases in the past.
The best way going is with indigenous tanks and sticking for t90 won't improve our armored capability.

Just to be clear you don't have any affiliation with IA or Russia?
Will the 114 new arjun mk1a that IA is buying have a new redesigned turret?
 

Kuldeepm952

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Will the 114 new arjun mk1a that IA is buying have a new redesigned turret?
Nah man, too much lost time in arjun mk1a to move on to a new iterative improvement. You know IA and it's delaying tactics, instead of taking command of the project they widdle their fingers and point in random directions hoping that DRDO would come to their unobtanium product.
There is a programme to convert arjun into UGV. Probably a TD project like Muntra. So i highly doubt if they will design a autoloader for a TD project as arjun is not really an optimal design for UGV, well might as well do and can be used for FMBT project.
 

Marliii

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Nah man, too much lost time in arjun mk1a to move on to a new iterative improvement. You know IA and it's delaying tactics, instead of taking command of the project they widdle their fingers and point in random directions hoping that DRDO would come to their unobtanium product.
There is a programme to convert arjun into UGV. Probably a TD project like Muntra. So i highly doubt if they will design a autoloader for a TD project as arjun is not really an optimal design for UGV, well might as well do and can be used for FMBT project.
There hasn't been any massive info about FMBT for some time now even in defexpo .having to call something to replace the tincans is a necessary thing now
 

Kuldeepm952

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There hasn't been any massive info about FMBT for some time now even in defexpo .having to call something to replace the tincans is a necessary thing now
The last info I know about FMBT is from saurav jha that IA has seemingly pulled out QRs of FRCV/FMBT/NGMBT(?) from drdo so the project is in limbo again, don't know if they were latest QRs or not and remember that the latest RFI was from may2021. Just see how much different is the first FICV rfi from the latest one, so who knows things seem to be changing so much around Armor warfare.
So unless IA mend their own house and come up with a final future tending requirements, final product won't come out. Point to note that NGMBT project with Drdo as they call it was in fairly advanced stages considering that 125mm smoothbore gun, 1500hp engine, all electric turret drive and an aps was selected to be incorporated into the design and subsystems were under development as confirmed by chief in science reporter magzine/journal/pdf(?) of aug2021.

My 2cents that IA would probably come up with something inspired from all these kf51, embt, armata and Abrams x. We might as well see the addition of recon uav capability and loitering munitions like that of latest FICV rfi.

As with all things with IA, the user has to spell out what they want exactly and stop sabotaging indigenous weapons
 

Corvus Splendens

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So, here's the thing, Indian T90S are subpar if not crap, so stop peddling t90 as some op tank

1.) It lacks citv, critical for many situations, have seen enough video tank commanders finding difficult to find targets and getting ploinked by Ukrainian infantry nearby, as the conflict showed, in hatch open condition, even a dji equipped grenade will take the vehicle out
2.) The bloody thing doesn't have an apu for silent overwatch and other applications
3.) Doesn't have environmental control unit and we have to come up with ice jacket like juggad for our soliders
4.) Our Tincans still use mango rounds, an extensive change of gun and loading system might be needed to fire more high pressure rounds
5.) You can probably run faster than the T90S can reverse, so in case of ambush, better pray and die rather than panicking
6.) Our Tincans have shit for side Armor, so a simple rpg7 rocket will take it out, atleast Russians have their shiny t90m with side era extensive coverage
7.) IA T90 doesn't have laser warning system so you only know when you get hit, shitty choice anyway
8.) Fire control system of T90S is so good according to you that IA is precisely trying to replace it with a new system
9.) IA is so amused by hp/tonne of T90S that it has even though about changing the engine
10.) And above all, the way IA procurement works, these Tincans will forever be Tincans going forward or atleast a part of them, floating of rfi again and again till the death of equipment, only things which seems to get approved and inducted are indigenous ones,so good luck

I know Arjun mk1a made a mistake with retention of turret and not adopting a redesigned turret with low profile and integrated aps. Took goddamn long coz IA in its all wisdom wanted to prove every upgrade before inducting. Well the way I know the other armies themselves inducts in batches with subsequent upgrades and we might have seen quicker implementation of upgrades the way IA wants if orders have been steady but nah, the search for unobtanium continues.

Are these enough points to show how good is shitcan is, bloody thing requires upgrade on every subsystem and addition of new systems, the only quantifiable upgrade on our T90 compared to T72 is that of Armor, gunners sight and FCS. The present T90S is a junk as it gets, the way it will be better is through indian systems addition and after adding so much upgrades, just how much is that Russian then, so would you agree then that what we got from Russia is basically substandard for modern warfare.

So the truth is videshi tank is literal Tincan in this age of 2020+, so stop your ranting, be objective and if you wanna say that IA is wise in its procurement, I would say it's not for many of its purchases in the past.
The best way going is with indigenous tanks and sticking for t90 won't improve our armored capability.

Just to be clear you don't have any affiliation with IA or Russia?
APU tender

CITV from BEL
https://www.indiatvnews.com/busines...-commander-sight-t-90-tanks-2022-02-28-761951

rest are dismal by current standards, ammunition and protection chief among them
 

binayak95

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