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[AUSTERLITZ]

Naa - dont make that mistake of giving too much weightage on equipment. When the germans tore through what arguably was the best equipped army in the world (the French), they did so with primarily PzIIs.
Fighting ability, leadership and men matter far far more.

That said, BMPs and T90/T72 CIAs are fine for dealing with pigs and chinks today. For tomorrow we need much better integration of assets.

Is T90/T72 really fine for dealing with chinese?
Even some porks claim that their khalid and vt-4 is better than bhisma and even al zarrar can equal ajeya and defeat unupgraded t72.

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

@Indx TechStyle
In your opinion out of a 100 how would you rate the strategic location of India in the world like economic route energy route resource route etc

How would you rate other countries china saudi
UAE turkey iran ?

 

[Fatalis]

ALSV variant(Mortar)

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Is T90/T72 really fine for dealing with chinese?
Even some porks claim that their khalid and vt-4 is better than bhisma and even al zarrar can equal ajeya and defeat unupgraded t72.

All tanks in neighbourhood are pretty much of same class capability in firepower and protection as long as type 99 isn't considered. So for now T72/90 will do.
Our T72 are really old and I don't see if any deep upgrade is worth the money.
On the other hand our T90 are relatively new but are heavily lacking and according to me a deep upgrade including an aps, coaps sight, tifcs sight, rcws, additional side ERA skirt armour against HEAT weapons, tonbo Wolfpack situational awareness will be needed to make it relevant for coming future. Also the problem being that gun has to be tweaked a bit lot to let it fire more powerful apfsds. As you can see, that's a lot needed to make it relevant or otherwise a half ass upgrade will just lead to a dead upgraded tank. That's where I hate this piecemeal upgrade happening which isnt even implemented timely whole fleetwide and we end up with a tank which is going to get ploinked in a war.

Either bring a good kitted tank to a war or rather just surrender and save tankers life. It's a shame that IA is itself to blame for all these fuckups.

Just go to Twitter and see the thinking of some of veterans including very high ranks, it's stupid at best. Some are busy in their crusade for videshi maal, some are busy doing political commentary, just recently an ex maj. general said that Vikram Batra got his medal just bcoz of coverage by Barkha Dutt and yada yada.
A good reminder to forum members, people in armed forces might not know much better and might have motives.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

ALSV variant(Mortar)

View attachment 179215

120mm or 81mm??

 

[omaebakabaka]

The only reason GoI is acting parsimonious is that they think IAF is crying wolf. They think the requirements for MRCA are extravagant spending at best. When a reality check happens, such misunderstandings will shatter.
(I cannot really blame illiterate IAS babus for thinking such, even fanboys on this forum advocate for 500+ LCA completely missing the point of manufacturing capabilities and deadlines).

And for policymakers shutting the door, nope, that is never going to happen. It will only solidify our resolve to kick down China.



I do not agree LCA program would have been killed. In fact, MMRCA would have given us a comfortable buffer time to develop Tejas and AMCA. Now delays in the Tejas program might mean a massive defeat and loss of territory for us.

Also, this argument about cost and how India cannot afford Rafale is bullshit. Indonesia and Egypt are not particularly shining stars of the economy, and they can afford it comfortably. This is just Indian baniya attitude of "Why buy 40 Lakh Skoda, when Maruti Suzuki comes at 8 Lakh" attitude.

Even monkey's will come with better procurement strategy than IAF and GOI....MMRCA was absolutely necessary with LCA getting equal priority. This is not at all money problem....5 or 6 squads of Rafael's would have been great for IAF for next 2 decades while LCA comes through for 21 replacements and AMCA in time for MKIs. Shit storm in the making and Modi will end up on the wrong side of history as this is also continuing under his watch if serious escalation does occur with China.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

The only reason GoI is acting parsimonious is that they think IAF is crying wolf. They think the requirements for MRCA are extravagant spending at best. When a reality check happens, such misunderstandings will shatter.
(I cannot really blame illiterate IAS babus for thinking such, even fanboys on this forum advocate for 500+ LCA completely missing the point of manufacturing capabilities and deadlines).

And for policymakers shutting the door, nope, that is never going to happen. It will only solidify our resolve to kick down China.

I do not agree LCA program would have been killed. In fact, MMRCA would have given us a comfortable buffer time to develop Tejas and AMCA. Now delays in the Tejas program might mean a massive defeat and loss of territory for us.

Also, this argument about cost and how India cannot afford Rafale is bullshit. Indonesia and Egypt are not particularly shining stars of the economy, and they can afford it comfortably. This is just Indian baniya attitude of "Why buy 40 Lakh Skoda, when Maruti Suzuki comes at 8 Lakh" attitude.

Any formidable airforce, be it the USAF or the PLAAF, has a light to medium weight single engine fighter jet in its fleet in massive numbers which forms the backbone of its fleet.
For the USAF, its the F-16 of which they operate 900+ examples, the PLAAF operates 500+ J-10.
The Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A are good multirole fighter aircraft which have proven their A2A and A2G capabilities during exercises like Gaganshakti, but I fail to understand why is the aircraft only being looked as a replacement for the Mig-21 fleet and not as a fleet backbone.
This is the perfect example of short sightedness and its funny that forum members support this short sightedness.

You thinking the MMRCA acts as a buffer for development of Tejas variants and AMCA shpws how little you know of the MMRCA timelines, even if the MMRCA is signed tomorrow it won't be atleast till 2025-26 that the first aircraft is rolled out of the production line, also the production rate is not going to exceed more than 14 jets per year since IAF can only induct a limited number of jets into its fleet every year.
If IAF is really worried about its dwindling squadron strength, then it won't stop the Tejas Mk1/1A order at only 123 units.

The UPA deal for 126 Rafales was valued at $14 billion back in the day, and this is just for the barebones aircraft excluding any kind of technology transfer, maintenance packages, support packages, logistics packages, weapons systems, simulators, India Specific Enhancements, etc.
When you factor in all these variables, the cost ballons to excess of $25 billion and still you will be doing licensed assembly with little to no technology transfer (France will never give you the "know-how" and "know-why" for the Spectra EW suite, RBE2-AA radar, Meteor, no matter how much you pay them).
The entirety of the Indonesian AirForce is of 224 aircraft, IAF alone has more Su30 MKI in service, so I call BS on this comparison parameter.
Egypt gets funding from the other Arab states which explains their expensive acquisitions, India does not have that luxury.
With MMRCA, IAF has to commit 3-4 years worth of its CAPEX money to only MMRCA leaving 0 aside for Super Sukhoi upgrade, S-400 acquisition, MRSAM acquisition, Tejas Mk1A acquisition, C-295 acquisition, Refuellers, AEW&C, ISTAR, etc. amongst many of IAF ongoing military programs.
Can the IAF afford to do that, the answer is a big NO.
At best, another 2-3 squadrons of Rafale will be acquired and that will be the end of MMRCA as we know it.
I would rather have an Indian baniya attitude rather than being broke.

 

[abingdonboy]

The only reason GoI is acting parsimonious is that they think IAF is crying wolf. They think the requirements for MRCA are extravagant spending at best. When a reality check happens, such misunderstandings will shatter.
(I cannot really blame illiterate IAS babus for thinking such, even fanboys on this forum advocate for 500+ LCA completely missing the point of manufacturing capabilities and deadlines).

And for policymakers shutting the door, nope, that is never going to happen. It will only solidify our resolve to kick down China.



I do not agree LCA program would have been killed. In fact, MMRCA would have given us a comfortable buffer time to develop Tejas and AMCA. Now delays in the Tejas program might mean a massive defeat and loss of territory for us.

Also, this argument about cost and how India cannot afford Rafale is bullshit. Indonesia and Egypt are not particularly shining stars of the economy, and they can afford it comfortably. This is just Indian baniya attitude of "Why buy 40 Lakh Skoda, when Maruti Suzuki comes at 8 Lakh" attitude.

Man what are you talking about?

1) GoI hasn’t forced 500+ LCA on IAF
2) MMRCA demand has been upheld by IAF and GoI has allowed them to go for RFI after the GoI (MoD) granted AON for it
3) who is buying 100++ 4.5 gen fighters off the shelf in this day and age? Anyone that can buy in those numbers either buys their own or is an oil producer

I’d love to see the evidence that the GoI has forced LCA on IAF, the IAF in the last 5 years has HALVED their commitment to LCA MK.2

besides, other than 126 MMRCA what has IAF proposed since 2001 to replace the 10s of squadrons of MiG 21/23/27, Jags etc that have gone out of service and the M2K/MiG29s that are soon to follow post 2030?

either way, IAF’s big brain thinking has led to the scenario where they’ll be inducting the same amount of fighters in the next 10 years as the PLAAF inducts in 1.5 years

IAF and Indian generals can point fingers all they like but ultimately they are the ones that create force modernisation plans and allocate resources. Civilians only get involved at the last stage. They’ll give IAS guys cr@p all day long but these geniuses can’t even figure out how to procure the basics like clothing

 

[vishnugupt]

The only reason GoI is acting parsimonious is that they think IAF is crying wolf. They think the requirements for MRCA are extravagant spending at best. When a reality check happens, such misunderstandings will shatter.
(I cannot really blame illiterate IAS babus for thinking such, even fanboys on this forum advocate for 500+ LCA completely missing the point of manufacturing capabilities and deadlines).

And for policymakers shutting the door, nope, that is never going to happen. It will only solidify our resolve to kick down China.



I do not agree LCA program would have been killed. In fact, MMRCA would have given us a comfortable buffer time to develop Tejas and AMCA. Now delays in the Tejas program might mean a massive defeat and loss of territory for us.

Also, this argument about cost and how India cannot afford Rafale is bullshit. Indonesia and Egypt are not particularly shining stars of the economy, and they can afford it comfortably. This is just Indian baniya attitude of "Why buy 40 Lakh Skoda, when Maruti Suzuki comes at 8 Lakh" attitude.

So according to you the reason why GoI has started ignoring IAF because UN generals has stolen Modi buffalo from his backyard. Or GoI simply hate them for no reason.

Pious UN generals have crossed all limits and GoI forced to come into action. Things would be catastrophic in future if GoI hasn’t streamlined Generals.

 

[assassin162]

2 more squads of GtoG rafales, 1 squad of Mig 29, 12 Su 30. That is all what we should have imported by now...... , Should have ordered 3~4 years back......
We are still discussing these things, IAF is still doing MRCA la la shows where the problem lies. What is the use of importing Rafales in 2030's? Even if we order say 126 Rafales by say around 2025, deliveries will start only by 2027 or 28.....at the same time MK2 will be start coming.

Govt is pretty clear. Once MK2 starts flying they will likely force IAF to double and triple down on it and will be doing everything to export it. Production of MK2 is going to be much larger than what we are imagining as of now.

So IAF should stop acting as spoilt child of a rich father. It should get it's priorities right.

Single most important thing for India is building aerospace sector and not fulfilling fantasies of some air marshals.

 

[omaebakabaka]

but I fail to understand why is the aircraft only being looked as a replacement for the Mig-21 fleet and not as a fleet backbone.

It is not but in its current form this platform ends in mk2 most likely....when it started, migs were still our backbone and so this was to replace 21s which are oldest and most in number and serving till date. It could easily replace mirages and 29's also but they are still relatively new and can serve for few more years. Our pathetic execution of procurement will replace 21s as they will crash on their own and Tejas will still be well a dream

 

[assassin162]

30 billion dollars to import Rafales?
Versus
30 billion dollars invested in Indian Aerospace sector? I will always choose the later.
Though both orders and yearly numbers for MK1A, MK2 should be increased if IAF is willing.

 

[Blood+]

They also had unprecedented C&C thanks to radio sets that had never been used in warfare until then whilst the French were completely disorganised.

the Germans had plenty of superior tech on their side so it would be incorrect to say speed trumps all. The current crop of the IA’s mechanised forces are woefully out of date and vulnerable to even limited fire

Dude, give it a rest. NATO tanks and AFVs wouldn't have fared any better than the Russian tanks if thrown in the same setting!!

 

[Blood+]

They also had unprecedented C&C thanks to radio sets that had never been used in warfare until then whilst the French were completely disorganised.

And the Russians were (and continue to remain so as of now) vastly outnumbered in terms of infantry, without which, an armored formation can not possibly hope to survive for long, especially in a heavily built-up urban setting!!

The current crop of the IA’s mechanised forces are woefully out of date and vulnerable to even limited fire

For what they are expected to face up against, the T-90s and (the T-72M1 CIAs to a lesser extent) are more than adequate for the time being. But yeah, they needed to get rid of those BMP-2Ks 10 years ago.

 

[thebakofbakchod]

Homegrown cruise missile system hit by technical snag

BHUBANESWAR: A fresh test of India’s indigenous technology cruise missile (ITCM) system ‘failed’ on Friday after its engine reportedly developed snags. The syst

www.newindianexpress.com

They should seriously consider disbanding the team behind this project. Nothing these people have touched have worked out in the last 20 years.

> This was the second failure of the system in the last two years. Of the three tests of the ITCM conducted since 2020, two have failed and one achieved ‘partial success’. During the first trial on October 12, 2020, the system deviated from the pre-coordinated flight path prompting the mission team to kill the missile mid-air to prevent damages to human habitation as the same engine had failed to function. The second trial on August 11 last year though was ‘partially’ successful as the engine performed as expected but the missile system could not travel the desired range reportedly due to some issues with the control mechanism.

Absurd how they took 2 years to carry out 2 tests and they failed every time. Shows how incompetent the team is if they cant even reverse engineer a decades old russian engine.

 

[flanker99]

Homegrown cruise missile system hit by technical snag

BHUBANESWAR: A fresh test of India’s indigenous technology cruise missile (ITCM) system ‘failed’ on Friday after its engine reportedly developed snags. The syst

www.newindianexpress.com

They should seriously consider disbanding the team behind this project. Nothing these people have touched have worked out in the last 20 years.

> This was the second failure of the system in the last two years. Of the three tests of the ITCM conducted since 2020, two have failed and one achieved ‘partial success’. During the first trial on October 12, 2020, the system deviated from the pre-coordinated flight path prompting the mission team to kill the missile mid-air to prevent damages to human habitation as the same engine had failed to function. The second trial on August 11 last year though was ‘partially’ successful as the engine performed as expected but the missile system could not travel the desired range reportedly due to some issues with the control mechanism.

Absurd how they took 2 years to carry out 2 tests and they failed every time

The problem seems to be the manik engine ...nirbhay with russian engine worked fine....imobwe should get a proven engine and start the induction process this capability is too important to wait for the manik to succeed

 

[thebakofbakchod]

The problem seems to be the manik engine ...nirbhay with russian engine worked fine....imobwe should get a proven engine and start the induction process this capability is too important to wait for the manik to succeed

GTRE has been the biggest of all failure. After 40 years, they still have 0 engines developed for production use. Too little funding, lack of structure and an incompetent organization is to blame.

 

[binayak95]

They also had unprecedented C&C thanks to radio sets that had never been used in warfare until then whilst the French were completely disorganised.

the Germans had plenty of superior tech on their side so it would be incorrect to say speed trumps all. The current crop of the IA’s mechanised forces are woefully out of date and vulnerable to even limited fire

I didnt say speed trumps all - but leadership and fighting doctrine.

 

[binayak95]

Is T90/T72 really fine for dealing with chinese?
Even some porks claim that their khalid and vt-4 is better than bhisma and even al zarrar can equal ajeya and defeat unupgraded t72.

Its more than adequate. Paki tanks are ... lets just say I doubt how much of their tank fleet is operational. and the chinese armour is of dubious quality from some testing. people say export tanks vs chini tanks but the same thing had been said of russi maal too.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Is T90/T72 really fine for dealing with chinese?
Even some porks claim that their khalid and vt-4 is better than bhisma and even al zarrar can equal ajeya and defeat unupgraded t72.

The VT-4 is a meme that spends more time in the workshop than in the field. Deadliest tank pakis have is the T-80 UD.