DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[abingdonboy]

Just 15 per IBG seems a bit low considering the fact that IBGs are generally going to be larger than American BCTs.
Sure NAMICA is only one vehicle and the R&S will have LAMV for recon as well. But compare it to what an American Armoured BCT has for recon and its pretty low numbers.

IBGs are good on paper but the IA really isn’t making them anywhere lethal enough. They won’t have the numbers to give each on dedicated attack helo cover, MGS/SPG, NAMICA or even decent IFVs and MBTs.

they’ve broken down some strike corps and relabelled them but without a huge increase in mechanisation and capital equipment it doesn’t really mean much. They are still just T90/T72 columns with some BMP2s running along behind them. Without even having decent AD from QRSAM they are pretty toothless

 

[mist_consecutive]

Not really sure what your point is, celebrate what? Mediocrity? Whilst your adversary is building up at unprecedented rates these geniuses are ordering low single digit numbers of critically required equipment and leaving 60+ year old designs in service

everything with these guys is ‘maybe tomorrow’, what about today? Only when they get their backsides whooped do they wake up and then it’s a rush to import under emergency procurement powers

it’s not like buying toys in a store. These things have HUGE lead times and require massive capital if you want any kind of meaningful capacity. Do they want HAL/private sector to build decent capacity based on 6/10 unit orders?

if I’m being kind I’ll say they only know how to buy from abroad where foreign OEMs have already built up thanks to support from their domestic users, if I’m being cynical I’d say the best way to kill domestic products and keep the door open for imports is to make IDDM uncompetitive (both on cost and delivery timelines). Remember all the drama around the costs of the Arjun? There are multiple articles out there calling the Arjun the most expensive MBT in the world, well DRDO asked for a minimum order of 500 to localise production and cut unit cost in half.

These clowns ordered 124 units and then 1000s of T90s that are now being obliterated by rag tag militias in Ukraine. With users like this no wonder you don’t have world class MIC

My original post was about appreciating orders for HTT-40, it was an unprecedented feat for IAF who always dragged their feet with indigenous acquisitions, as you have kindly mentioned above.

So yes, celebrate baby steps toward getting out of mediocrity ?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

IBGs are good on paper but the IA really isn’t making them anywhere lethal enough. They won’t have the numbers to give each on dedicated attack helo cover, MGS/SPG, NAMICA or even decent IFVs and MBTs.

they’ve broken down some strike corps and relabelled them but without a huge increase in mechanisation and capital equipment it doesn’t really mean much. They are still just T90/T72 columns with some BMP2s running along behind them. Without even having decent AD from QRSAM they are pretty toothless

Well, the idea of IBG is speed. To mobilize and attack faster than the Pakistanis can. Once the mobilization advantage is lost, and it will be, the idea is to just hold out Pakistani counter-attacks in a defensive posture. Very different from the kind of deep maneuver warfare the previous Sundarji doctrine envisaged. This entire Cold Start idea is one meant to capture small area in Pakistan to avoid a nuclear war. And I have no idea if its a good idea.

Ofcourse this needs equipment upgrades to be effective. Our only saving grace is that Pakistan is in no position to attack us for now.

 

[jai jaganath]

15 per IBG is the estimate I saw years ago. 300 odd across all RAPIDS and IBGs

Do u have idea when 300 nos will be ordered

 

[The Shrike]

OT but it's amusing that as IA is finally embracing IBG, the US Army is moving back to divisions as they have concluded BTCs are not optimal against "Peer threats".

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

OT but it's amusing that as IA is finally embracing IBG, the US Army is moving back to divisions as they have concluded BTCs are not optimal against "Peer threats".

Americans are rolling back the BCTs?

 

[ezsasa]

Doesn't AoN get expired after couple years if no order is placed?

My understanding of AoN(Acceptance of Necessity) is that it is an official document which triggers the next steps of procurement process. basically GoI is saying to the forces, we are ready to spend money on a particular item, start your documentation for procurement process and let us know how much exactly you need and by when.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well, the idea of IBG is speed. To mobilize and attack faster than the Pakistanis can. Once the mobilization advantage is lost, and it will be, the idea is to just hold out Pakistani counter-attacks in a defensive posture. Very different from the kind of deep maneuver warfare the previous Sundarji doctrine envisaged. This entire Cold Start idea is one meant to capture small area in Pakistan to avoid a nuclear war. And I have no idea if its a good idea.

Ofcourse this needs equipment upgrades to be effective. Our only saving grace is that Pakistan is in no position to attack us for now.

I get CSD and IBGs in theory but just because you only want to go fast and shallow doesn’t mean you don’t need them to be able to deliver a punch to break through the lines. The tin can BMPs and T-series death traps going up against armour on the other side aren’t exactly sure to be effective. Look at the mess that Russia made of their IBG/blitzkreig tactic in Ukraine because they faced even rudimentary resistance.

things like NAMICA, QRSAM, FICV, MGS/SPG are essential to having credible IBGs. The kind of cr@p they are planning to push with is almost laughable, some dismounted RPG hunter killer teams would wreck havoc to them forget about the TB2s they are buying.

IA wants to emulate daddy Russia I guess

 

[abingdonboy]

OT but it's amusing that as IA is finally embracing IBG, the US Army is moving back to divisions as they have concluded BTCs are not optimal against "Peer threats".

America fights to win. Indian military fights to draw (by policy)

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

My understanding of AoN(Acceptance of Necessity) is that it is an official document which triggers the next steps of procurement process. basically GoI is saying to the forces, we are ready to spend money on a particular item, start your documentation for procurement process and let us know how much exactly you need and by when.

I was talking about this (from DAP-2020):-

 

[ezsasa]

I was talking about this (from DAP-2020):-


View attachment 179163

budgeting wallahs in the ministry must have been fed up with having to do upward revision of provisional budget per line item every year procurement gets delayed.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

budgeting wallahs in the ministry must have been fed up with having to do upward revision of provisional budget per line item every year procurement gets delayed.

They should also feel the sting when procurement gets delayed. Instead they don't want to take even a little more paperwork because of it, so they put this in place. There should be a similar procedure to penalize Finance Ministry babus with extra paperwork whenever they stop military procurement. Use paperwork as weapon against babu to get them to behave lol.

 

[jai jaganath]

@binayak95 ji along with my previous question do u know the status of namica on whap
@Chinmoy ji too

 

[binayak95]

I get CSD and IBGs in theory but just because you only want to go fast and shallow doesn’t mean you don’t need them to be able to deliver a punch to break through the lines. The tin can BMPs and T-series death traps going up against armour on the other side aren’t exactly sure to be effective. Look at the mess that Russia made of their IBG/blitzkreig tactic in Ukraine because they faced even rudimentary resistance.

things like NAMICA, QRSAM, FICV, MGS/SPG are essential to having credible IBGs. The kind of cr@p they are planning to push with is almost laughable, some dismounted RPG hunter killer teams would wreck havoc to them forget about the TB2s they are buying.

IA wants to emulate daddy Russia I guess

Naa - dont make that mistake of giving too much weightage on equipment. When the germans tore through what arguably was the best equipped army in the world (the French), they did so with primarily PzIIs.
Fighting ability, leadership and men matter far far more.

That said, BMPs and T90/T72 CIAs are fine for dealing with pigs and chinks today. For tomorrow we need much better integration of assets.

 

[binayak95]

@binayak95 ji along with my previous question do u know the status of namica on whap
@Chinmoy ji too

Arreh bhai maalum hoga bhi toh nahi bolunga on a system that is being inducted as we speak.

 

[binayak95]

The spike that had serious issues in Indian conditions even identifying targets against clutter because of its seeker?

what’s this obsession with weight? A few KG more makes a system worthless to a force that is ordering 1000s of second gen wire controlled Milans and konkors?

man these loons deserve to have their butts whooped the next time the Chinese feel like teaching a lesson. They’ll happily fight with their 1970s junk whilst keeping all the IDDM stuff that is actually contemporary on the drawing boards or in trails

dont get me started on seekers.
We had for some time british supplied thermal EO/IRs on IN ships. They literally were used to death in a few weeks. Replacement cost 35 lakhs +. Then came along TASD and Tonbo and IN said GTFO to israeli/brit sensors

 

[jai jaganath]

Arreh bhai maalum hoga bhi toh nahi bolunga on a system that is being inducted as we speak.

Ok no problem
But can u tell what year are u expecting fir 300 namica to be ordered
Bit childish
But actually I love the system

 

[abingdonboy]

Naa - dont make that mistake of giving too much weightage on equipment. When the germans tore through what arguably was the best equipped army in the world (the French), they did so with primarily PzIIs.
Fighting ability, leadership and men matter far far more.

That said, BMPs and T90/T72 CIAs are fine for dealing with pigs and chinks today. For tomorrow we need much better integration of assets.

They also had unprecedented C&C thanks to radio sets that had never been used in warfare until then whilst the French were completely disorganised.

the Germans had plenty of superior tech on their side so it would be incorrect to say speed trumps all. The current crop of the IA’s mechanised forces are woefully out of date and vulnerable to even limited fire

 

[The Shrike]

Americans are rolling back the BCTs?

Kinda, they are reorganizing the BTC and moving a lot of it's assets back to the division level.

The Army’s transformation begins with these new units

From brigade to division and corps, the Army is changing.

www.armytimes.com

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/Online-Exclusive/2021-OLE/Reichert/ (haven't completely read this one)

 

[flanker99]

Subscale haps specs