DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Aditya Ballal]

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Hell, even the old gen BPJs this was meant to replace look more comfortable and ergonomic than this precision made item.

 

[jai jaganath]

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And we shouldn't question the common sense of military bureaucrats

 

[flanker99]

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Wont be surprised if smpp guys bribed some babus or gernails

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

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Throw out DPSU and bring in private industry they said. It will be fun they said.

On a more serious note, want to see market forces now remove SMPP from competition, at least in vests. Lets see if it works as intended, and if not, fault will lie in our procurement process. Procuring OFB-quality goods from private enterprise is just procurement procedures fault.

And we shouldn't question the common sense of military bureaucrats

Aur karo MOLLE ko gol. Seriously why is it so hard to order proper equipment?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Throw out DPSU and bring in private industry they said. It will be fun they said.

On a more serious note, want to see market forces now remove SMPP from competition, at least in vests. Lets see if it works as intended, and if not, fault will lie in our procurement process. Procuring OFB-quality goods from private enterprise is just procurement procedures fault.


Aur karo MOLLE ko gol. Seriously why is it so hard to order proper equipment?

The vest was made as per GSQR of the forces, can’t only blame SMPP if the GSQR itself was from the 60s. As SMPP has a quite a selection of better products on their website. IMO all the stakeholders are responsible for this mess.

SMPP

www.smgroupindia.com

 

[Kuldeepm952]

The vest was made as per GSQR of the forces, can’t only blame SMPP if the GSQR itself was from the 60s. As SMPP has a quite a selection of better products on their website. IMO all the stakeholders are responsible for this mess.

SMPP

www.smgroupindia.com

To be fair all of their full body protector designs with groin protection included are equally disappointing.
We must procure load cum plate carrier vests differently from SAPI and HAP plates. Let's see if the next lot of armour protection procured is improved ergonomically or not.

Even if this design was ToT to them, they just didn't try to make a modular design fulfilling the same GSQR. This is basically screwdrivergiri of drdo fed design. And apparently the plates are also ToT of Drdo design. This is beyond shameful.

Anyway, the point being that none of the private cos was unable to meet GSQR of IA and it was finally fulfilled by govt led agency. This says something atleast i guess.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Throw out DPSU and bring in private industry they said. It will be fun they said.

On a more serious note, want to see market forces now remove SMPP from competition, at least in vests. Lets see if it works as intended, and if not, fault will lie in our procurement process. Procuring OFB-quality goods from private enterprise is just procurement procedures fault.


Aur karo MOLLE ko gol. Seriously why is it so hard to order proper equipment?

It's my belief but the day army starts making good realistic RFPs and award contracts after doing a reasonable amount of testing would be the day where most of these problems will go away.
But first of all for that to happen they must atleast know what they want

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Anyone having some knowledge on the ability of Indian BMD phase-1 to tackle ballistic missiles with MaRV warhead, very relevant in our case as all chinese TBMs and MRBMs have them and it is likely that Pakis too will be deploying more of the same in near future.
My understanding is that at certain points at trajectory MaRVs have the ability to change their direction and this will change the calculated interception point significantly. If this happens while the interceptor is in air, doesn't that mean the interceptor has become a dud and unless the interceptor has a significant retarget ability that is the ability to be able to redirect to new interception point which will require interceptors missiles with higher burn times.
Both in exo and endo engagements, this will prove out to be a massive pain in the ass. Just theoretically the situation is extremely hard to solve and basically a solution to such a thing but in case of HGVs from Lockheed Martin was THAAD ER, basically a larger rocket motor THAAD to increase retarget capability.

My conclusion being an interceptor with higher speed and high coast time are needed to shoot down manuevering threats like MaRVs and HGVs with higher divert capability.

So, anyone has done some kind of study as to how does our bmd phase-1 perform against such threats?

 

[Lonewolf]

Anyone having some knowledge on the ability of Indian BMD phase-1 to tackle ballistic missiles with MaRV warhead, very relevant in our case as all chinese TBMs and MRBMs have them and it is likely that Pakis too will be deploying more of the same in near future.
My understanding is that at certain points at trajectory MaRVs have the ability to change their direction and this will change the calculated interception point significantly. If this happens while the interceptor is in air, doesn't that mean the interceptor has become a dud and unless the interceptor has a significant retarget ability that is the ability to be able to redirect to new interception point which will require interceptors missiles with higher burn times.
Both in exo and endo engagements, this will prove out to be a massive pain in the ass. Just theoretically the situation is extremely hard to solve and basically a solution to such a thing but in case of HGVs from Lockheed Martin was THAAD ER, basically a larger rocket motor THAAD to increase retarget capability.View attachment 170358
My conclusion being an interceptor with higher speed and high coast time are needed to shoot down manuevering threats like MaRVs and HGVs with higher divert capability.

So, anyone has done some kind of study as to how does our bmd phase-1 perform against such threats?

Ours for pdv have similar capabilities

 

[Lonewolf]

Anyone keeping eyes on test vs notams ??? Looks like too much secrecy is held in regards to test .

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

No mention of quantity though. Does that mean its finally happening or are they talking about missiles for user trials?


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BDL has received orders for missile component of BMD... The launchers will be made by Tata advanced systems limited as shown on their website

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Anyone having some knowledge on the ability of Indian BMD phase-1 to tackle ballistic missiles with MaRV warhead, very relevant in our case as all chinese TBMs and MRBMs have them and it is likely that Pakis too will be deploying more of the same in near future.
My understanding is that at certain points at trajectory MaRVs have the ability to change their direction and this will change the calculated interception point significantly. If this happens while the interceptor is in air, doesn't that mean the interceptor has become a dud and unless the interceptor has a significant retarget ability that is the ability to be able to redirect to new interception point which will require interceptors missiles with higher burn times.
Both in exo and endo engagements, this will prove out to be a massive pain in the ass. Just theoretically the situation is extremely hard to solve and basically a solution to such a thing but in case of HGVs from Lockheed Martin was THAAD ER, basically a larger rocket motor THAAD to increase retarget capability.View attachment 170358
My conclusion being an interceptor with higher speed and high coast time are needed to shoot down manuevering threats like MaRVs and HGVs with higher divert capability.

So, anyone has done some kind of study as to how does our bmd phase-1 perform against such threats?

The bigger challenge in taking on HGVs is tracking it. Can't be done reilably without space based sensors. Look at Americans trying to upgrade their SBIRS constellation. That is where we lack most. But yeah, you are right. When the hypersonic target becomes maneuvering, your interceptor needs progressively greater energy (starting from MaRV towards HGV) in the endgame. Not sure but I think it means it would need not only a larger booster and smaller kinetic kill vehicle but also propellant with higher burn rate.

Our Phase-1 missiles simply don't have that capability. Phase-2's AD-2 missile is comparable to SM-3 Block1A or Block1B so it could compete with THAAD, but not with THAAD-ER which has higher energy at endgame and greater slant range.

EDIT: Basically current BMD systems have been designed with flight envelope of traditional RVs and maybe even MaRVs in mind. But HGVs fly beyond the extremes of that narrow flight envelope of traditional RVs and MaRVs. So beyond the odd lucky shot, current BMD systems simpy won't be effective against HGVs.

EDIT2: Also the materials. Future HGVs would have better materials allowing sustained hypersonic cruise at lower altitudes of around maybe 40 km, so that is already below the kind of engagement altitude exo-atmospheric interceptors are designed for. And endo-atmospheric ones don't have enough slant range to act as anything other than a point defence against this threat.

Ours for pdv have similar capabilities

PDV is similar in terms of engagement altitude. But that is about it.

 

[ShukantC]

yaar propaganda ki bhi hadd hoti hai, the so called powered exoskeleton is a joke without the bottom part actually helping in support that weight, because without it the exoskeleton is adding more problems than solving it. Extra weight toh beycharey soldier pey hi daal diya

 

[Kuldeepm952]

The bigger challenge in taking on HGVs is tracking it. Can't be done reilably without space based sensors. Look at Americans trying to upgrade their SBIRS constellation. That is where we lack most. But yeah, you are right. When the hypersonic target becomes maneuvering, your interceptor needs progressively greater energy (starting from MaRV towards HGV) in the endgame. Not sure but I think it means it would need not only a larger booster and smaller kinetic kill vehicle but also propellant with higher burn rate.

Our Phase-1 missiles simply don't have that capability. Phase-2's AD-2 missile is comparable to SM-3 Block1A or Block1B so it could compete with THAAD, but not with THAAD-ER which has higher energy at endgame and greater slant range.

EDIT: Basically current BMD systems have been designed with flight envelope of traditional RVs and maybe even MaRVs in mind. But HGVs fly beyond the extremes of that narrow flight envelope of traditional RVs and MaRVs. So beyond the odd lucky shot, current BMD systems simpy won't be effective against HGVs.

EDIT2: Also the materials. Future HGVs would have better materials allowing sustained hypersonic cruise at lower altitudes of around maybe 40 km, so that is already below the kind of engagement altitude exo-atmospheric interceptors are designed for. And endo-atmospheric ones don't have enough slant range to act as anything other than a point defence against this threat.


PDV is similar in terms of engagement altitude. But that is about it.

I am more worried about the MaRV threats from TBMs and MRBMs, especially Pakistanis bcoz i can only imagine them as the only unreasonable nation to use nuclear weapons in case of a war.
In case of china, pursuing an effective BMD itself maybe feasible to some point but not failure proof.
The inability of Pakistan to produce any good BMs and new technologies is ever more the reason that we should be able to null their nuclear threat using an effective BMD.
And if AD-2 is going to be equal to SM3 then doesn't that make it equivalent to THAAD-ER as both have similiar engagement envelope.
The most i see in near future from Pakistan is fielding MarVs.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

The vest was made as per GSQR of the forces, can’t only blame SMPP if the GSQR itself was from the 60s. As SMPP has a quite a selection of better products on their website. IMO all the stakeholders are responsible for this mess.

SMPP

www.smgroupindia.com

It was designed by DMSRDE, DRDO.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/inline-files/29______BPJ.pdf

 

[IndianHawk]

Just beautiful. The asthetics ....

 

[ObiWanKenobi]

It's my belief but the day army starts making good realistic RFPs and award contracts after doing a reasonable amount of testing would be the day where most of these problems will go away.
But first of all for that to happen they must atleast know what they want

You guys are blaming the wrong thing.

This is L1 at play. SMPP won by decreasing the quality of finish, right till the lowest grade the RFP allows. Many things are subjective like finish, fabrics etc. which cannot be stipulated in an RFP. They could bid lower by compromising on those. SMPP exports world class stuff to other countries, so their capability is not in doubt.

Same story with the first gen Arjun sight made by TONBO. In order to be L1 and beat BEL, they made what they needed to make to win the order.

L1 and quality can't go hand in hand. You have to ensure price is just one criteria, not the ultimate. Also, a subjective criteria is also required since not everything can be measured by numbers. Foreign RFPs hardly have any info, they leave a large part to their users' preference - they just assume no corruption will take place.

 

[johnj]

Anyone having some knowledge on the ability of Indian BMD phase-1 to tackle ballistic missiles with MaRV warhead, very relevant in our case as all chinese TBMs and MRBMs have them and it is likely that Pakis too will be deploying more of the same in near future.
My understanding is that at certain points at trajectory MaRVs have the ability to change their direction and this will change the calculated interception point significantly. If this happens while the interceptor is in air, doesn't that mean the interceptor has become a dud and unless the interceptor has a significant retarget ability that is the ability to be able to redirect to new interception point which will require interceptors missiles with higher burn times.
Both in exo and endo engagements, this will prove out to be a massive pain in the ass. Just theoretically the situation is extremely hard to solve and basically a solution to such a thing but in case of HGVs from Lockheed Martin was THAAD ER, basically a larger rocket motor THAAD to increase retarget capability.View attachment 170358
My conclusion being an interceptor with higher speed and high coast time are needed to shoot down manuevering threats like MaRVs and HGVs with higher divert capability.

So, anyone has done some kind of study as to how does our bmd phase-1 perform against such threats?

THAAD is a great system, but not the first layer defence, consider GBI missile or next gen GBI , a135, a235 etc.
Impt, I never read any article saying thaad capable of intercepting MaRV and HGV, but US developing new interceptor missile to counter hgv & US started launching next gen sensor satellite for tracking missiles.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I am more worried about the MaRV threats from TBMs and MRBMs, especially Pakistanis bcoz i can only imagine them as the only unreasonable nation to use nuclear weapons in case of a war.
In case of china, pursuing an effective BMD itself maybe feasible to some point but not failure proof.
The inability of Pakistan to produce any good BMs and new technologies is ever more the reason that we should be able to null their nuclear threat using an effective BMD.
And if AD-2 is going to be equal to SM3 then doesn't that make it equivalent to THAAD-ER as both have similiar engagement envelope.
The most i see in near future from Pakistan is fielding MarVs.

True that BMD against Pakistan is a much lower hanging fruit and we really can hope to largely reduce most of the effectiveness of their nukes, but with stakes that high, I don't feel comfortable in relying on just that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't chase after an almost nuke-tight BMD, we should. But we shouldn't get cocky about it. Nukes are serious stuff. A single one going off on an Indian city is a major disaster.
.
AD-2 is comaparable to older blocks of SM-3, so not really comparable to THAAD-ER. I think.
.
Against MaRVs, we can deploy multiple mid-phase interceptors (PDV MkII), although the costs would be pretty damn high. But taking out MaRVs in mid-phase would be no different than taking out any other Ballistic Missile RV because the MaRV can't begin maneuvering until its reentering again.

THAAD is a great system, but not the first layer defence, consider GBI missile or next gen GBI , a135, a235 etc.
Impt, I never read any article saying thaad capable of intercepting MaRV and HGV, but US developing new interceptor missile to counter hgv & US started launching next gen sensor satellite for tracking missiles.

GBI missiles are too few in the American arsenal (I remember reading somewhere around 30 missiles or so). Also, GBI is a mid-course interceptor in same class as PDV MkII, with engagement envelope stretching out to altitudes of around 1200 km. Wouldn't work against HGVs really. Unless you move the GBI/GMD forward enough to where it can interecpt the HGV right after boost phase. Against HGVs that is the most effective way to take them out, but how do you get a GBI missile close enough to HGV launch point to achieve that? Chinese A2AD won't let that happen.

You guys are blaming the wrong thing.

This is L1 at play. SMPP won by decreasing the quality of finish, right till the lowest grade the RFP allows. Many things are subjective like finish, fabrics etc. which cannot be stipulated in an RFP. They could bid lower by compromising on those. SMPP exports world class stuff to other countries, so their capability is not in doubt.

Same story with the first gen Arjun sight made by TONBO. In order to be L1 and beat BEL, they made what they needed to make to win the order.

L1 and quality can't go hand in hand. You have to ensure price is just one criteria, not the ultimate. Also, a subjective criteria is also required since not everything can be measured by numbers. Foreign RFPs hardly have any info, they leave a large part to their users' preference - they just assume no corruption will take place.

L1 is exactly why those making the SQRs should be well aware of industry capabilities and the nature of their offerings. This is what DefExpo is meant for, partially. For serving officers to explore first hand what industry can offer. That way, when it comes down to setting minimum requirements, we don't end up getting crap. Problem is with those setting SQRs.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The bigger challenge in taking on HGVs is tracking it. Can't be done reilably without space based sensors. Look at Americans trying to upgrade their SBIRS constellation. That is where we lack most. But yeah, you are right. When the hypersonic target becomes maneuvering, your interceptor needs progressively greater energy (starting from MaRV towards HGV) in the endgame. Not sure but I think it means it would need not only a larger booster and smaller kinetic kill vehicle but also propellant with higher burn rate.

Our Phase-1 missiles simply don't have that capability. Phase-2's AD-2 missile is comparable to SM-3 Block1A or Block1B so it could compete with THAAD, but not with THAAD-ER which has higher energy at endgame and greater slant range.

EDIT: Basically current BMD systems have been designed with flight envelope of traditional RVs and maybe even MaRVs in mind. But HGVs fly beyond the extremes of that narrow flight envelope of traditional RVs and MaRVs. So beyond the odd lucky shot, current BMD systems simpy won't be effective against HGVs.

EDIT2: Also the materials. Future HGVs would have better materials allowing sustained hypersonic cruise at lower altitudes of around maybe 40 km, so that is already below the kind of engagement altitude exo-atmospheric interceptors are designed for. And endo-atmospheric ones don't have enough slant range to act as anything other than a point defence against this threat.


PDV is similar in terms of engagement altitude. But that is about it.

Quasi ballistic or actively maneuvering ones would be very hard to intercept in theory both from technical and economical aspects. For a booster to gain hypersonic speeds at the same level as the target is generally going to have some limit due to basic physics in addition to tracking which in theory is possible to track and possibly a lesser challenge (tracking may already be in place as they test Zircon e.t.c, they claim s500 will be able to track and intercept Hypersonic missiles and near space). Intercepting something like Sarmat would be very difficult....in theory point defence systems (not the likes of today) sort of could work to protect a high value target like a VLR radar e.t.c

One other old idea is the likes of mig 31.....very fast interceptors launching very fast missiles to intercept in conjunction with ground based radars but there is a limit on the size of missiles in going after maneuvering ones.....lasers are line of sight, so can't be that effective at long range interception but may be useful in point defence capacity as charge storage tech moves forward.