DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[johnj]

GBI missiles are too few in the American arsenal (I remember reading somewhere around 30 missiles or so). Also, GBI is a mid-course interceptor in same class as PDV MkII, with engagement envelope stretching out to altitudes of around 1200 km. Wouldn't work against HGVs really. Unless you move the GBI/GMD forward enough to where it can interecpt the HGV right after boost phase. Against HGVs that is the most effective way to take them out, but how do you get a GBI missile close enough to HGV launch point to achieve that? Chinese A2AD won't let that happen.

GBI range ?
Chinese SBIRS, Russian involvement ?
thanks.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Quasi ballistic or actively maneuvering ones would be very hard to intercept in theory both from technical and economical aspects. For a booster to gain hypersonic speeds at the same level as the target is generally going to have some limit due to basic physics in addition to tracking which in theory is possible to track and possibly a lesser challenge (tracking may already be in place as they test Zircon e.t.c, they claim s500 will be able to track and intercept Hypersonic missiles and near space). Intercepting something like Sarmat would be very difficult....in theory point defence systems (not the likes of today) sort of could work to protect a high value target like a VLR radar e.t.c

Russian S500 would have ground based radars right? If HGV is flying at 40 km altitude, the radar horizon would be too close especially given the speed of an HGV. So beyond point defence, its not useful. Tracking for point interception is possible, but US is trying to get area defence going. And if they deploy new gen HGV interceptors on ships and do sensor netting of their entire fleet and ground infra, they can effectively form a formidable defence against HGVs. Which is why all the focus on sensitive, miniaturized and distributed space-based IIR-based tracking.
Interception only becomes as challenging as you mentioned if you try it the conventional way by lauching a couple of interceptors and then trying to get in an energy competition with the target. Like you said, that is too costly (in energy terms thus making it difficult in technological terms). The American approach is much more effective and scalable. Although it requires massive forward deployment of HGV interceptors across multiple ships stationed across all possible approaches.

GBI range ?
Chinese SBIRS, Russian involvement ?
thanks.

For GBI, look at this graph:-

No idea about Chinese SBIRS though. First I've ever heard they are even working on this.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Russian S500 would have ground based radars right? If HGV is flying at 40 km altitude, the radar horizon would be too close especially given the speed of an HGV. So beyond point defence, its not useful. Tracking for point interception is possible, but US is trying to get area defence going. And if they deploy new gen HGV interceptors on ships and do sensor netting of their entire fleet and ground infra, they can effectively form a formidable defence against HGVs. Which is why all the focus on sensitive, miniaturized and distributed space-based IIR-based tracking.
Interception only becomes as challenging as you surmised if you try it the conventional way by lauching a couple of interceptors and then trying to get in an energy competition with the target. Like you said, that is too costly (in energy terms thus making it difficult in technological terms). The American approach is much more effective and scalable. Although it requires massive forward deployment of HGV interceptors across multiple ships stationed across all possible approaches.


For GBI, look at this graph:-

No idea about Chinese SBIRS though. First I've ever heard they are even working on this.

I think so far, I am of the opinion US interception abilities are not a given, Soviets entire structure was designed to easily defeat them (Aegis included with wolf pack granits e.t.c) and I will believe them more than the US based on Korea/Vietnam/Gulf/Yugoslav and other smaller wars and war in Ukraine. Problem with active HPV's is that they can be launched from a wide area as long as there are carriers like tu-95/160 e.t.c. It is next to impossible for even US to cover all spots in all directions at any given time in the Oceans. Taiwan is too close for instance to China, they will take out ships first if they are too close before launching.....After Aegis, I am not sure if US has a really good AD or the opponents caught up too soon. I don't think thaad here and there can really be depended on except to hide the offensive missiles vs defensive near opponents like in Poland/Romania/South Korea/Japan

We will see an iteration of AD to address these threats but offence wins in the short term as always.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I think so far, I am of the opinion US interception abilities are not a given, Soviets entire structure was designed to easily defeat them (Aegis included with wolf pack granits e.t.c) and I will believe them more than the US based on Korea/Vietnam/Gulf/Yugoslav and other smaller wars and war in Ukraine. Problem with active HPV's is that they can be launched from a wide area as long as there are carriers like tu-95/160 e.t.c. It is next to impossible for even US to cover all spots in all directions at any given time in the Oceans. Taiwan is too close for instance to China, they will take out ships first if they are too close before launching.....After Aegis, I am not sure if US has a really good AD or the opponents caught up too soon. I don't think thaad here and there can really be depended on except to hide the offensive missiles vs defensive near opponents like in Poland/Romania/South Korea/Japan

Maybe. Lets see. Its good for us that these countries are taking different approaches so that we don't have to go through all that trouble. We just have to wait for them to come up with a good enough solution and then we can start going down that route ourselves. Perks of being in catch-up growth phase.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Maybe. Lets see. Its good for us that these countries are taking different approaches so that we don't have to go through all that trouble. We just have to wait for them to come up with a good enough solution and then we can start going down that route ourselves. Perks of being in catch-up growth phase.

What you said has merits as the Russians are hedging by building a missile like Sarmat that can come at US via Southpole where US does not have great monitoring nor defence posture to intercept. Its all about probabilities and sometimes even a 10% odds are better than 0 or not doing anything. India has ways to go, we have not fought a war and that too first power level in a vert long time. Same with China, failures, setbacks are critical to adapt and come up with solutions. That is the reason why these powers encourage conflicts in 3rd countries and sell them shit loads of their new toys and make money and gain wealth of data.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

You guys are blaming the wrong thing.

This is L1 at play. SMPP won by decreasing the quality of finish, right till the lowest grade the RFP allows. Many things are subjective like finish, fabrics etc. which cannot be stipulated in an RFP. They could bid lower by compromising on those. SMPP exports world class stuff to other countries, so their capability is not in doubt.

Same story with the first gen Arjun sight made by TONBO. In order to be L1 and beat BEL, they made what they needed to make to win the order.

L1 and quality can't go hand in hand. You have to ensure price is just one criteria, not the ultimate. Also, a subjective criteria is also required since not everything can be measured by numbers. Foreign RFPs hardly have any info, they leave a large part to their users' preference - they just assume no corruption will take place.

Nope, that's exactly why first you need to know what you exactly want and form a detailed QRs so as to get that. They didn't put a cap on dimensions and hence tonbo big TI was selected.
From what I observed, IA seems to have no idea what it exactly wants and hence refloatation of tenders endlessly. L1 is essentially a very good mechanism, you just have to make QRs very detailed.
But yeah, going forward IA has to take lead in programs to get any good needed tangible system. IA has to shed their customer mind where they form QRs which apparently they keep on changing the. Take on a project actively, give your inputs and get what you want.
If not, I wholly expect our Government to shove down indigenious systems down on them, sooner or later they have to learn not to salivate over foreign maal. Well, what can I say IA seems to be full of old generals who still think of ruski and foreign weapons as superior to indigenious or atleast there is some noticable foreign lobby influence, which of course is backed by their nostalgia.

 

[IndianHawk]

Ballistic missile defence will not suffice once hypersonic missiles come in who won't follow ballistic trajectory .

It's better to spend money on increasing your own nuke arsenal to guarantee enemy total annihilation . That will keep nukes in check.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Nope, that's exactly why first you need to know what you exactly want and form a detailed QRs so as to get that. They didn't put a cap on dimensions and hence tonbo big TI was selected.
From what I observed, IA seems to have no idea what it exactly wants and hence refloatation of tenders endlessly. L1 is essentially a very good mechanism, you just have to make QRs very detailed.
But yeah, going forward IA has to take lead in programs to get any good needed tangible system. IA has to shed their customer mind where they form QRs which apparently they keep on changing the. Take on a project actively, give your inputs and get what you want.
If not, I wholly expect our Government to shove down indigenious systems down on them, sooner or later they have to learn not to salivate over foreign maal. Well, what can I say IA seems to be full of old generals who still think of ruski and foreign weapons as superior to indigenious, which of course is backed by their nostalgia.

Writing a good hypothesis requires certain amount of capabilities, how do you get these capabilities? One, you have a system of organic knowledge base in the form of academic (we are decent here and getting better with publications/patents but still somewhat has a derived feel in lot of areas) and/or industry in the form of products and so on. In military terms, in the absence of active MIC with experience, most of the requirements come from derived knowledge (going to fairs, analyzing other wars/conflicts/marketing materials and so on) with no first hand experience (state of the art and future looking). Our army has excellent experience in CI/CT and to a certain extent mobilization and logistics and high altitude stuff and so on.....we are seeing some decent productivity from DRDO to deliver in these areas probably because problem was stated with clarity. But there is great ambition to be part of big leagues aka ego possibly and also compromised attitude to make career post army and make money in some fashion and this leads to casual/fictitious and needless asks without comprehensive long terms goal. I know friends that have to spend an year or more to just come up with Phd hypthesis and defend it. Not an easy task....

 

[IndianHawk]

 

[Kuldeepm952]

I hope someday, we also develop such potent anti-Armor system. Albeit, the capability exists in form of SANT but such salvo fire capability is unknown.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I hope someday, we also develop such potent anti-Armor system. Albeit, the capability exists in form of SANT but such salvo fire capability is unknown.

Highly doable by SANT and a Jaguar carrying an AESA radar. IMHO.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Some good news and not so good news on this front

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Some good news and not so good news on this front

Wow, he said 2 years for scaling it up for Su-30MKI and then 2 more years of testing it after which we can start installing them on entire Su-30MKI fleet!

 

[IndianHawk]

Wow, he said 2 years for scaling it up for Su-30MKI and then 2 more years of testing it after which we can start installing them on entire Su-30MKI fleet!

More importantly IAF is willing to fund that development of uttam for su30mki size. Very promising.

Also developement of photonic radar is good sign for future.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Wow, he said 2 years for scaling it up for Su-30MKI and then 2 more years of testing it after which we can start installing them on entire Su-30MKI fleet!

I think its still awesome if they can deliver it in that timeframe, I did not get the point of importing Elta's without testing and assuming they are good?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

I think its still awesome if they can deliver it in that timeframe, I did not get the point of importing Elta's without testing and assuming they are good?

IMO, probably because they’ve already installed them on the Jaguar DARIN-III, they must probably be confident of its capability.

 

[omaebakabaka]

IMO, probably because they’ve already installed them on the Jaguar DARIN-III, they must probably be confident of its capability.

I think you are right because they mentioned that, Tejas is more a2a fighter interceptor than a fighter bomber but that may be the basis of not testing it regardless. I hope they don't go easy on domestic ones as long as they are objective.

 

[Srinie]

Some good news and not so good news on this front

Most likely jaziya by HAL to recover its costs in ELTA deal. They should never have gotten UTTAM production contract after royally screwing the hybrid radar of LCA. This should have gone to BEL or ASTRA microwave. There should be a rule that PSU who have a competing product vis a vis an indigenous one would not be the production partner of both. And production Screw-ups of PSU should not be rewarded with further contracts

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Most likely jaziya by HAL to recover its costs in ELTA deal. They should never have gotten UTTAM production contract after royally screwing the hybrid radar of LCA. This should have gone to BEL or ASTRA microwave. There should be a rule that PSU who have a competing product vis a vis an indigenous one would not be the production partner of both. And production Screw-ups of PSU should not be rewarded with further contracts

Wait. Uttam production contract went to Astra, right? Right!?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Wait. Uttam production contract went to Astra, right? Right!?

No. It went to HAL.