DRDO Phalcon style AWACS

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Jet Airways also has 10 Boeing 777-300ER so I suggest these instead
That's a very amateurish suggestion!

Firstly, getting any aircraft of choice (new or used) is pretty simple in the global market. One doesn't need to jump at the fact that a domestic airline is going out of business.

Secondly, the choice of aircraft for AWACS should be done based on the aircraft's technical suitability for AWACS and military operation.....not just on some random availability.

Lastly, Jet airlines will be able dispose off the aircraft easily in either the domestic market or international market! Don't expect that those aircraft will be given to DRDO/IAF for scrap metal value!
 

abingdonboy

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That's a very amateurish suggestion!

Firstly, getting any aircraft of choice (new or used) is pretty simple in the global market. One doesn't need to jump at the fact that a domestic airline is going out of business.

Secondly, the choice of aircraft for AWACS should be done based on the aircraft's technical suitability for AWACS and military operation.....not just on some random availability.

Lastly, Jet airlines will be able dispose off the aircraft easily in either the domestic market or international market! Don't expect that those aircraft will be given to DRDO/IAF for scrap metal value!
Indeed and for a whole host of reasons it is not sensible to mix civilian and military fleets, anyone under the impression that this will be a cost effective option in the long term is delusional.

It’s not as simple as- I need a plane, there’s a plane, let me get that plane.
 

Wisemarko

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Sorry but this isn’t a practical solution.

1) second hand converted civil airliners are not an economical nor safe option
2) the 737 is TOTALLY inadequate for the AWACS (INDIA) as a platform. It doesn’t have the power generation capabilities and very well may not have the performance figures to support the full 360* sensor. There’s a reason why only flat arrays are used on the 737 and the large 360* dishes are fitted on larger wide bodies like the 707.

Most of these reasons apply to the tanker role too, just compare the MTOW figures for the two jets, the A330 MRTT is just on another planet. The 737 could almost fit inside the fan of the 777 widebody. The entire point of a tanker is having substantial excess capacity, I don’t see the 737 as a credible option for this role and again there’s a reason why NO ONE has ever ordered it for that role and the standard is widebody aircraft.
Are you saying Wedgetail does not provide 360 degree coverage? Because that is incorrect.

The MESA multirole electronically scanned array radar being supplied by Northrop provides 360 degree coverage and a range of more than 200nm. Unlike Erickson made 2 flat panel radar of Erieye, (or Indian made AEW&C) MESA uses 3 panel arrangement achieving full coverage.

What power supply are you talking about? Did you just make it up? Because engine power/weight ratio is the key to providing necessary electrical power and power to weight ratio of A330-200 military version at 0.52 is less than that ratio for 737 Wedgetail at 0.53. In aviation that is a significant difference. Wedgetail has more than adequate power for all its electronics and cooling needs. In fact, P-8 A/I need more electrical power than Wedgetail!

MRTT or AEW&C? You seem to be confused between these two. A330 might be a completely advisable choice for MRTT but for AEW&C, its large size and excess weight are liabilities.

On average, 737-700ER based Wedgetail burns 2450kg fuel per hour. A330-200 based platforms burn 5600kg/hr. This is very expensive way to monitor your airspace without any additional benefit!

In the past, the electrical and radar systems were large but with new technology, miniature radars provide more power at lower size and electric needs. (Just look at the difference between Phalcon system supplied to Chile versus new G550 based AEW&C of Israel. New one is much smaller and yet has performs better.)

The small platforms are the future for next generation surveillance/ SIGNIT/ C3 missions.

Also, larger A330 is easier to pick up on enemy radar at longer ranges. With developing ultra long range AAM threats, it is not advisable to use important asset on bigger platforms.

Hope this helps
 
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Armand2REP

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No, I don’t know the inaccurate information which you seem to possess: NG and MAX have completely different MCAS software, just like both have very different engines and landing gear designs.

MCAS is a generic term for FCS software in Boeing world. Just like Windows is for Microsoft. One bad version has little bearing on previous stable versions. FYI: MCAS exists in other Boeing models as well.

We will see what Boeing’s name is. As I see, you are not placing or cancelling any aircraft orders anywhere anytime soon.
The 737 NG has the same faulty AoA sensors as the MAX and the same MCAS software running it. What you believe does not matter as Boeing has already altered the operations manuals for both NG and MAX after the crash. You will also find that the 737 NG did not start having AoA accidents upon landing/take-off until after the 2016 addition of MCAS. Between 2013 and the 2016 MCAS software update, the 737 NG had a clean three years.

Garuda cancelled 49, Lion Air is cancelling 200, Jet Airways cancelled 75, Ethiopian Airlines is ditching 25, ... the list will continue to go on and on.
 

asianobserve

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MCAS flight management software has only been in service since 2016, it isn't the aircraft that is bad, it is the poor programming of Boeing engineers cutting corners and disregarding the safety of passengers and crew.

That MCAS is used in B787 and it's fine. It appears that Boeing has been sloppy or hurried in installing MCAS into B737MAX.
 

asianobserve

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Jet Airways also has 10 Boeing 777-300ER so I suggest these instead

B777 is too big for AWACS duties, operational cost will be very expensive. Even biz jets will do for AWACS. But I think B737 is the most ideal platform due to its size and maintainability and lower cost of operation.
 

asianobserve

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Totally a$$backwards I have to say. These platforms are selected based on the ANTENNA, you don’t select the platform them go searching for a suitable antenna to fit on top.

The A330 has been selected by DRDO as the optimal platform considering power generation requirements (the most important factor for these birds), endurance, range, cabin capacity etc etc.

The 737 might be an option for the LRDE’s flat antenna used on the Netra considering how well the system performed recently but that there’s now a ban on buying more EMB-145s so a new platform is needed if the IAF wants anymore but it doesn’t seem they are interested in anything but 360* systems now.

It's interesting that the RAF is investing in Wedgetail as its next AWACS.

Re size, note that even E-2 Hawkeye can support a rotodome. The latest generation Hawkeye is even considered as the most advanced AWACS platform with its combined low frequency and X-band radars in its rotodome. It has no issues supplying power to its radars and electronics.

 
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Armand2REP

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That MCAS is used in B787 and it's fine. It appears that Boeing has been sloppy or hurried in installing MCAS into B737MAX.
Speaking of 787 and Boeing sloppiness, there is a new scandal about that...

Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet
Workers at a 787 Dreamliner plant in South Carolina have complained of defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamliner-production-problems.html
 

asianobserve

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Another issue about this is that I’m certain to mount an sort of sensor on these planes would require special permission from the USG and this would be accompanied by end use agreements and monitoring by the US. Do you really want your most sensitive assets to be under US control like that? Want to give them all your signatures and tech?

Airbus offers flexibility and freedom.

UK has no problem operating sensitive US platforms...
 

asianobserve

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Speaking of the Dreamliner, there is a new scandal about that...

Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet
Workers at a 787 Dreamliner plant in South Carolina have complained of defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamliner-production-problems.html

And this...

Boeing tanker jets grounded due to tools and debris left during manufacturing
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.se...s-and-debris-left-during-manufacturing/?amp=1

No doubt Boeing has been lax lately or maybe some of its workers are showing unhappiness with its aggressive cost-cutting and labor-busting schemes. But I'm confident they will sort out these issues.
 

Wisemarko

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The 737 NG has the same faulty AoA sensors as the MAX and the same MCAS software running it. What you believe does not matter as Boeing has already altered the operations manuals for both NG and MAX after the crash. You will also find that the 737 NG did not start having AoA accidents upon landing/take-off until after the 2016 addition of MCAS. Between 2013 and the 2016 MCAS software update, the 737 NG had a clean three years.

Garuda cancelled 49, Lion Air is cancelling 200, Jet Airways cancelled 75, Ethiopian Airlines is ditching 25, ... the list will continue to go on and on.
I can not and will not argue with someone who is going to lie or will not accept.

Read history of MCAS: it is designed exclusively for 737-MAX.
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-...aracteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/

Then realize that MCAS on MAX is not designed for dealing with faulty AoA sensor issues. It is designed for MAX to overcome change in Center of Gravity with new engines. The heavier and larger engines needed forward placement on wings compared to NG. This could cause pitch up situation during takeoff. MCAS is supposed to prevent it. But if AoA sensor gives wrong reading, MCAS can be activated erroneously. Taking data from only one aoa sensor for MCAS instead of two was a grave mistake and violation of FAR 23 and FAR 25. Boeing will pay for it. Changes to MCAS has already addressed it.

Which NG model crashed due to MCAS? Please give reference. Because MCAS does NOT exist on 737-NG. Lol
https://airlinerwatch.com/how-mcas-system-of-boeing-737-max-works/

MCAS in other form exists on KC-46 as well.
But unlike 737 MAX, uses two AoA sensor data.
https://www.mro-network.com/airframe/boeing-s-767-tankers-also-use-augmented-pitch-system

Boeing has only one cancellation so far Garuda with 50. Stock price has stabilized and stock is 250% up compared to 2016. Jet is out of business- doesn’t matter what they cancel or keep. Lion Air is talking since December without doing anything.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-shielded-from-737-max-order-cancellations-2019-04-18

Welcome to continue showing your ignorance. But I will stop responding now unless anything you claim has a link source with valid question.
 
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Punya Pratap

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I don't understand the fuss about US end user restrictions etc.... We have signed COMCASA and you are worried about our sensitive tech (we are as it is light years behind)
 

Armand2REP

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I can not and will not argue with someone who is going to lie or will not accept.

Read history of MCAS: it is designed exclusively for 737-MAX.
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-...aracteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/

MCAS in other form exists on KC-46 as well.
You can't even go ten seconds without contradicting yourself. First you say MCAS is exclusively for the 737 MAX and then say MCAS exists on the KC-46 as well.

Boeing has only one cancellation so far Garuda with 50. Stock price has stabilized and stock is 250% up compared to 2016. Jet is out of business- doesn’t matter what they cancel or keep. Lion Air is talking since December without doing anything.
Garuda = 49
Lion Air = 200
Jet Airways = 141 + 75
Ethiopian Airlines = 25

several more to follow...

Welcome to continue showing your ignorance. But I will stop responding now unless anything you claim has a link source with valid question.
I don't care if you respond or not. I am not on the Boeing damage control team. The simple fact is you had to rush to compete with the A320neo and you churned out a 50 year old turd with flight controls too complicated for the pilots to understand. Now we are learning that all Boeing aircraft are shoddily made and whistleblower complaints were hushed because Trump is in the back pocket of Boeing CEOs.
 
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Snowcat

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I think india should go either with gulfstream 550 or bombardier 6000. They have quite the range and pretty reliable as well. It is smaller than 737 and should be cheaper to maintain as well.
 

Wisemarko

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You can't even go ten seconds without contradicting yourself. First you say MCAS is exclusively for the 737 MAX and then say MCAS exists on the KC-46 as well.



Garuda = 49
Lion Air = 200
Jet Airways = 141 + 75
Ethiopian Airlines = 25

several more to follow...



I don't care if you respond or not. I am not on the Boeing damage control team. The simple fact is you had to rush to compete with the A320neo and you churned out a 50 year old turd with flight controls too complicated for the pilots to understand. Now we are learning that all Boeing aircraft are shoddily made and whistleblower complaints were hushed because Trump is in the back pocket of Boeing CEOs.
Didn’t know about KC-46, did you? It has MCAS borrowed from max as well.. anyway.
No one cares what you think- at your level of knowledge ignorance is a bliss. Adios
 

Dark Sorrow

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Boeing's Wedgetail is the perfect choice for India since it already operates Poseidon. It can buy those Jet Airways B737s and ask Boeing to convert them to Wedgetails.


Most of Jet Airways aircraft are not owned by them but are on lease from Boeing. Even if you own an aircraft you can't just convert it to a military aircraft as their is significant difference in both and not to forget you would violate the terms of service in your contract.
 

Dark Sorrow

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737 isn't the preferred choice of anybody right now, just ask Ethiopa how that turned out.
That's a different story altogether. The pilot was lacked training to disengage MCAS once he detected the problem with airspeed, altitude and angle of attack (AOA) sensor data.
 

asianobserve

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Most of Jet Airways aircraft are not owned by them but are on lease from Boeing. Even if you own an aircraft you can't just convert it to a military aircraft as their is significant difference in both and not to forget you would violate the terms of service in your contract.

I see no problem. I think all Boeing Wedgetails started life as commercial airliners and then converted by Boeing to Wedgetail configuration. In the case of the RAF Wedgetail orders, it made a deal with Boeing to let a British firm do the conversion in England under Boeing supervision.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ng-over-potential-26b-wedgetail-aircraft-buy/
 

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