DRDO Phalcon style AWACS

[Kshithij]

Technologically, it is possible to have both AWACS & Refueller on sane airframe, as either A330 MRTT also have lot of space available for cargo/troops.
But operationally, It is quite difficult but possible if IAF plan to induct them in large numbers.

Anyways, non-rotating Radome require minimum 3 radar arrays to cover-up 360° coverage and it is available for DRDO's A330 AWACS...

It is not yet clear what the refuelling plane is designed to refuel and how much fuel is there in it. Can it refuel a large number if fighter aircrafts or only the escort aircraft that escort it?

 

[TPFscopes]

It is not yet clear what the refuelling plane is designed to refuel and how much fuel is there in it. Can it refuel a large number if fighter aircrafts or only the escort aircraft that escort it?

Airbus A330 MRTT

Airliners mainly store their fuel (for self use) in their wings and near fuselage-wing fixtures.

You can find a lot of extra space than fuel storage, can be used for various purpose including paramedical, troop carrier, passenger, cargo etc etc
We can also use that place for AWACS configuration.

Extra pics
Cross section

Lower deck

 

[Flame Thrower]

Technologically, it is possible to have both AWACS & Refueller on sane airframe, as either A330 MRTT also have lot of space available for cargo/troops.
But operationally, It is quite difficult but possible if IAF plan to induct them in large numbers.

Anyways, non-rotating Radome require minimum 3 radar arrays to cover-up 360° coverage and it is available for DRDO's A330 AWACS...

AEW&Cs can stay longer duration in the air, but that is not the same case with the escort aircrafts.

Usually flankers will be the escort aircrafts for the AEW&Cs. Flankers can stay for 3 hrs in flight, while AWW&Cs stay longer. If AEW&C's refuel the flankers in mid air, then flankers also will stay longer in the threat area. All of them can act as a team to scan the area and leave together when another team of similar configuration takes up the scanning task

When I first researched about our AEW&C's and tankers, I thought it would be funny if AEW&C's can refuel at least the protection aircraft.

I am excited to see this happening. I also wish to have sat connection to our AEW&C systems (I am not sure if it already exists)

 

[TPFscopes]

AEW&Cs can stay longer duration in the air, but that is not the same case with the escort aircrafts.

Usually flankers will be the escort aircrafts for the AEW&Cs. Flankers can stay for 3 hrs in flight, while AWW&Cs stay longer. If AEW&C's refuel the flankers in mid air, then flankers also will stay longer in the threat area. All of them can act as a team to scan the area and leave together when another team of similar configuration takes up the scanning task

When I first researched about our AEW&C's and tankers, I thought it would be funny if AEW&C's can refuel at least the protection aircraft.

I am excited to see this happening. I also wish to have sat connection to our AEW&C systems (I am not sure if it already exists)

There is a lot of difference in AEW&CS and AWACS.
AEW&CS is based on a business jet , hence not able to store extra fuel packs and refuelling system but AWACS can.
A330 MRTT is way bigger than IAF's il-78...

 

[Flame Thrower]

I thought AEW&C and AWACS both are same.

Airborne Early Warning and Control systems.

Both use high frequencies to detect enemy threats at very long distance (around 400 km). That's where the curvature of Earth comes and we don't get a clear picture.

Both are used to guide friendly fighters to destroy enemy threats.

Did I miss anything....it was over 5yrs ago I did my study on the IL 76s

 

[TPFscopes]

I thought AEW&C and AWACS both are same.

Airborne Early Warning and Control systems.

Both use high frequencies to detect enemy threats at very long distance (around 400 km). That's where the curvature of Earth comes and we don't get a clear picture.

Both are used to guide friendly fighters to destroy enemy threats.

Did I miss anything....it was over 5yrs ago I did my study on the IL 76s

Both names looks quite same but have different in operations.

AEW&CS
1.Watch this official video to get exact idea about it.

Official DRDO Film On AEW&C Jet

2. It has lesser scanning range of 250kms (but can do upto 300kms)
3. Should have to fly in perpendicular to the fighter jet direction (or area of operation) or simply parallel to border.
4. Have 240* of scanning coverage (120* on each side) and can't perform missions while moving in the direction of fighter jets.
5. Similar aircrafts are saab eyerie

AWACS
1. It has scanning range of 400kms (for phalon) and coverage in all direction i.e. 360*
2. Have no problem in assisting fighter jets while moving in any direction.
3. Can perform COMINT & ELINT mission way better than Aew&cs.


All in all, in simple words, we can say that AWACS are improved variant of AEW&CS.

 

[Kshithij]

Both names looks quite same but have different in operations.

AEW&CS
1.Watch this official video to get exact idea about it.

2. It has lesser scanning range of 250kms (but can do upto 300kms)
3. Should have to fly in perpendicular to the fighter jet direction (or area of operation) or simply parallel to border.
4. Have 240* of scanning coverage (120* on each side) and can't perform missions while moving in the direction of fighter jets.
5. Similar aircrafts are saab eyerie

AWACS
1. It has scanning range of 400kms (for phalon) and coverage in all direction i.e. 360*
2. Have no problem in assisting fighter jets while moving in any direction.
3. Can perform COMINT & ELINT mission way better than Aew&cs.


All in all, in simple words, we can say that AWACS are improved variant of AEW&CS.

Here is the link to clear the air between AEW&CS and AWACS:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_early_warning_and_control

It says that AWACS is the name of a specific system made by NATO. It is like the difference between photocopy and Xerox. Xerox is a company while photocopy is the actual term. Same way, AEW&CS is the term and AWACS is the designation of NATO system

 

[AMCA]

Will IAF get more eyes in the sky? Defense ministry to decide today

• Ajit Kumar Dubey
• New Delhi
• February 28, 2018
• UPDATED 10:03 IST
• FOLLOW
• EMAIL AUTHOR

• READ LATER

HIGHLIGHTS

• DRDO plans to develop six AWACS aircrafts for IAF.
• Th planes will bolster IAF's capability to keep eye on rival air forces.
• The Defense ministry will consider the Rs 20000 crore proposal today.

The indigenous aircraft would be in the league of Phalcon AWACS planes (in pic) India acquired from Israel & Russia

Seeking to boost indigenous defence capabilities, the defence ministry is expected to consider a proposal worth over Rs 20,000 crore on Wednesday to develop six 'eyes in the sky' Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS) planes to monitor activities of rival air forces deep inside their territories.

"A DRDO proposal to develop six AWACS planes on the Airbus A-330 aircraft worth over Rs 20,000 crore is expected to come up for discussion at a high level meeting of the defence ministry under defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman," a government source told MAIL TODAY.


As per the plan, the DRDO would first develop the two aircraft from Airbus and modify them to fix radar over them which would give them the capability to conduct 360 degree snooping with a range of over 400 km in the sky, sources said.


This would be followed up by another four aircraft which would add to the two Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEWC) aircraft based on the Embraer aircraft.

The DRDO-developed aircraft would be in the league of the three Phalcon AWACS planes that India had acquired from Israel and Russia in a tripartite deal around 10 years ago for USD 1.1 billion (Rs 7,154 crore).

India had plans of acquiring two more such planes but the project has been put on the backburner as both countries have increased the price of the radar and the Ilsyushin-76 transport aircraft on which the radar is mounted by almost double.

The cost of the two planes has gone above USD 1.5 billion (Rs 9,755 crore) whereas the first three planes had been acquired a few years ago for USD 1.1 billion (Rs 7,154 crore).

The next-generation AWACS, with a 360-degree scan being developed by the DRDO, may also be developed as an air-to-air refueller.

The new system being developed by DRDO would have AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars with 360 degree capability, which can detect incoming aerial threats such as hostile fighters, drones and cruise missiles from 400 km away.

India will be only the second country in the world after Israel to develop such a system.

The AWACS being developed on the Airbus aircraft is far more advanced than the surveillance platform developed on the Embraer aircraft as it will provide 360 degree angle of coverage against the 240 degree angle of an AEWC plane. The DAC had earlier given approval to the DRDO's plan to develop two AWACS.

 

[Prashant12]

Indian Air Force Wants Home-Grown AWACS To Double As Tanker



While the Indian Air Force kickstarts a fresh hunt for flight refueling aircraft, India’s indigenous airborne warning and control system (AWACS) program has also gathered steam. In an interesting twist, the IAF has officially asked the Defence Research & Development Organisation to move forward in such a way that the resulting AWACS jets are fitted to play the additional role of mid-air refueling tankers.

Speaking exclusively to Livefist, DRDO chief S. Christopher said, “While we are developing the complete AWACS system based on the Airbus A330 platform, the IAF has asked us to add the refueling capability. This could be for escort aircraft or other situations where such a dual role functionality could be critical. We are in discussions with Airbus regarding this.”

While India’s quest for eight flight refueling aircraft is all set to be a clash between the Airbus A330 MRTT and the Boeing KC-46, the DRDO’s indigenous AWACS platform will be Airbus A330, a selection made four years ago. In 2015, the Indian government officially approved the program and sanctioned finances to the tune of over $800 million for costs that would include modifications and the first two A330 aircraft.

Christopher reveals that the percentage increase in cost of kitting up the Airbus A330 for AWACS-tanker dual functionality is roughly 17 per cent.

“Because of the additional tanker functionality requirement, there have been some delays, but we’ve made up for it on our side by completing developing of the radome antenna that will be the centrepiece of the AWACS,” Christopher reveals. Built at the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bengaluru, the 12.5 tonne antenna is near ready for integration on an A330 once modifications on the first aircraft are complete.

With work now in progress to develop India’s AWACS with tanker functionality, it remains unclear whether this could have an impact on the soon to be floated tanker contest between Airbus and Boeing. Airbus, which emerged a winner in two aborted contests for IAF tankers (Boeing didn’t compete in those first two contests) appears to have something of an advantage with the Indian AWACS program choosing to fold in a tanker role into its mission profile. However, as Livefist has noted before, there could be several other factors at play too.

Christopher adds, “In Bengaluru we’ve finished the radome. So, we are very confident of moving quickly. The aircraft manufacturer won’t have to wait for us. They will have questions on performance and structural rigidity, but we are working concurrently, so those issues have been sorted out too. Is it safe to fly? Those answers we don’t have to worry about now because we have moved quickly — we can show and prove ourselves that we are capable of doing that and we’ve done it. We’ve ticked all the boxes so far.”

For the DRDO chief, the program hits close to home. Himself a product of the Centre for Airborne Systems that’s building India’s AWACS — and a sensor scientist by training — this is additionally a prestige project for Christopher and one that he cannot afford to let slip. Christopher retires in May this year, though sources say his tenure as DRDO chief could be extended.

NETRA AEW&C

India currently operates three Israeli A-50 PHALCON AWACS jets based on the Il-76 platform. The Indian Air Force last year took delivery of its first DRDO-Embraer AEW&C aircraft Netra based on the ERJ-145 jet platform. Livefist can confirm that the second aircraft has completed flight test and is likely to be handed over to the Indian Air Force next month in Bhatinda with defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman overseeing the proceedings.

“The IAF has been using the Netra extensively. They’ve suggested a few improvements, which we’ve incorporated in the second aircraft that will shortly be delivered to them,” Christopher says. The improvements include fine-tuning of the surveillance radar. The IAF’s urgency for more eye-in-the-sky aircraft has compelled it on a quest for two more PHALCON type aircraft from Israel.

The third Embraer platform will remain with DRDO, as earlier reported by Livefist. Interestingly, the DRDO is now looking at the option of selling the aircraft to a foreign customer as a major diplomatic gesture.

“We are weighing the possibility of giving it to a nearby country as a diplomatic gesture. Let us see if it works out,” Christopher says.

The Indian Air Force has an officially projected requirement for 15 AWACS aircraft. The current three Israeli PHALCON AWACS will be augmented with six indigenous A330-based AWACS with two additional jets as options, plus plans for two more PHALCON jets, making a total of 13 aircraft. The two Netra, when upgraded with the IAF’s stated improvements, will provide greater cover, though not the 360-degree cover the IAF wants from all fifteen jets in the class.

PHALCON AWACS

“In a country like ours, the IAF needs 360 coverage. The Netra AEW&C doesn’t have that. But this is also a far lower cost program. So while we build the higher performance AWACS to fulfill the IAF’s requirement, we will continue to support them in their use of the Netra. The aircraft are extremely agile and have demonstrated remarkable performance in the hands of our IAF crews,” Christopher says.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...nts-home-grown-awacs-to-double-as-tanker.html

 

[Illusive]

IamI surprised IAF didn't ask to have brahmos integrated into the AWACS as well, you know to help in "critical situation".

 

[Flame Thrower]

IamI surprised IAF didn't ask to have brahmos integrated into the AWACS as well, you know to help in "critical situation".

Don't be cynical my friend.

Let me tell you my dream of AWACS.

1. IL -76 style GaN based TR modules.
2. Able to connect all Indian satellites, Indian Armed forces bases, all navy ships(this maybe already available)
3. Able to stay 12 hrs in the air without refuel.
4. Able to refuel it's escort fighters.
5. 4 hard points to carry suicidal drones which can go against anti AWACS missiles.

 

[AMCA]

“Because of the additional tanker functionality requirement, there have been some delays, but we’ve made up for it on our side by completing developing of the radome antenna that will be the centrepiece of the AWACS,” Christopher reveals. Built at the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bengaluru, the 12.5 tonne antenna is near ready for integration on an A330 once modifications on the first aircraft are complete.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...nts-home-grown-awacs-to-double-as-tanker.html

So they have completed the development of AESA Radar antenna?? That was quick..........

 

[Steven Rogers]

The antenna weighs 12.5 tons, that much weight junks all the claims made by Paki AWACS.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Chinmoy]

So they have completed the development of AESA Radar antenna?? That was quick..........

Now what IF IAF goes for Boeing in refueling role?

Although Radome has been ready for Airbus, refurbishing it for Boeing would again take its own sweet time.

 

[Sancho]

The third Embraer platform will remain with DRDO, as earlier reported by Livefist. Interestingly, the DRDO is now looking at the option of selling the aircraft to a foreign customer as a major diplomatic gesture.

Simply insane!!! National security is at risk and they making good will gestures with an AWACS???

 

[Sancho]

Now what IF IAF goes for Boeing in refueling role?

Although Radome has been ready for Airbus, refurbishing it for Boeing would again take its own sweet time.

Different tenders, Mid air refuelling tender for 6 x tankers on the one side, DRDO ordering 6 x A330s for their AWACS India programme on the other.

The additional capability to add refuelling drogues on it, might only be a sign of how desperate IAF is and that they know, that they might not get enough tankers to keep operations running all over Indian air space. So adding this capability, will make the AWACS able to refuel their escorts on their own, without waiting for a dedicated tanker.

 

[Chinmoy]

Different tenders, Mid air refuelling tender for 6 x tankers on the one side, DRDO ordering 6 x A330s for their AWACS India programme on the other.

The additional capability to add refuelling drogues on it, might only be a sign of how desperate IAF is and that they know, that they might not get enough tankers to keep operations running all over Indian air space. So adding this capability, will make the AWACS able to refuel their escorts on their own, without waiting for a dedicated tanker.

Read this particular paragraph..........

While the Indian Air Force kickstarts a fresh hunt for flight refueling aircraft, India’s indigenous airborne warning and control system (AWACS) program has also gathered steam. In an interesting twist, the IAF has officially asked the Defence Research & Development Organisation to move forward in such a way that the resulting AWACS jets are fitted to play the additional role of mid-air refueling tankers.

Ofcourse IAF is in look out for a refueling tankers. But the obvious fact that they want AWACS to double up as tankers screw up the whole thing in future. If they go for Airbus this time, there is a chance of retro fitting these in future to double up as AWACS at a lower cost. But just imagine the cost factor if they go for Boeing.

On other hand, 6 tankers now and another couple of tanker + AWACS in future is not going to help you in future on cost front.

As far as national security is concerned, diplomacy is the first line of defence. Moreover if you don't have a domestic user, there is no use of keeping the AEW&C like a white elephant.

 

[Sancho]

Ofcourse IAF is in look out for a refueling tankers. But the obvious fact that they want AWACS to double up as tankers screw up the whole thing in future.

First of all, IAF will order AWACS, but the decision of which platform AWACS India will use, was on DRDO:

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has decided to go with A330 as the platform for the Indian AWACS effort, DRDO had issued RFP to Major Aerospace companies for possible supply of 6 Aircraft’s to mount new AWACS radar on larger platform and Airbus emerged sole bidder...

http://idrw.org/airbus-a330-selected-for-awacs-india-programme/

That's why I said they are different tenders and even if they now are meant to get refuelling pods, we don't know if they would be used in the general tanker role, or just to refuel their escorts.
Secondly, since IAF is planing to use IL78 next to a western tanker anyway, it's evident that they have no issue with different types of aircrafts for that role. But that they now are going for used platforms tells a lot of the current state of defence modernistic budget => which than leads to addition refuelling capability of the AWACS.

 

[Chinmoy]

First of all, IAF will order AWACS, but the decision of which platform AWACS India will use, was on DRDO:

http://idrw.org/airbus-a330-selected-for-awacs-india-programme/

That's why I said they are different tenders and even if they now are meant to get refuelling pods, we don't know if they would be used in the general tanker role, or just to refuel their escorts.
Secondly, since IAF is planing to use IL78 next to a western tanker anyway, it's evident that they have no issue with different types of aircrafts for that role. But that they now are going for used platforms tells a lot of the current state of defence modernistic budget => which than leads to addition refuelling capability of the AWACS.

Look what you have quoted............

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has decided to go with A330 as the platform for the Indian AWACS effort, DRDO had issued RFP to Major Aerospace companies for possible supply of 6 Aircraft’s to mount new AWACS radar on larger platform and Airbus emerged sole bidder...

It was just about development effort of the AWACS. It doesn't mean anywhere that IAF is bound to go with it.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Can someone please request the Def Ministry on my behalf to acquire a dozen Boeing 737 series (bearing in mind their life cycle) from the Jet Airways to convert half of them to AWACS and the other half into tankers. This will be an effective stop gap arrangement for IAF as well as help SBI off load its burden.

If we can think of getting used fighters (Malaysian Mig 29's + French Jags etc) and refurbish them for the front line role that a fighter / strike aircraft are meant to undertake then why not look at used Jet Airways Boeing that will anyway be taking over the role of forece multipliers and secondary assets. I for one think it will be a win-win for IAF/SBI and MoD