Civil war in Ukraine

[sgarg]

Yes, I know military power is important, it is just that some countries develop rest of the society also.... Some neglect development on other areas and trust that military power keeps internal and external threats down.

Russia is a very educated forward looking society. Your argument that "Russia ignores development" simply does not cut it.
Russians have some social problems but the bulk of the problems are coming from animosity of USA.

 

[arpakola]

People's deaths make Poroshenko laugh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUiTymfL3Xo

Let's not forget who was behind the Ukraine coup. Read my new column at the link:

Interventionism Kills: Post-Coup Ukraine One Year Later
http://tinyurl.com/qetprfe

 

[Ray]

Yes, I know military power is important, it is just that some countries develop rest of the society also.... Some neglect development on other areas and trust that military power keeps internal and external threats down.

No country in the world is ideal.

Military is for External Threat.

Finland should have the smallest army in the world. But can they? The fear of Russia and its past experience makes it have an Armed Force, which many may think is counter-productive in size and in maintaining it and the money could be put to better use for the citizenry.

 

[Akim]

Russia is a very educated forward looking society.

Ha ha ha. Especially young people. In the post-Soviet countries is a big problem.

 

[sgarg]

The civil war in Ukraine is another humongous hypocrisy.

Neither the US & EU, not Russia care about the Ukrainians.

They only care about their interest in this Great Game of jockeying for power.

I doubt that very much. It is a real war. Hypocrisy rarely leads to such wars.

The death toll in Ukraine has crossed 50000 and rising fast. The Kiev numbers are hogwash. The deaths earlier were scores per day. Now the figures are worse.

Russia takes it as a fight of survival. Unfortunately such statements have started coming from NATO heads too.

Russian expansionist ambitions could quickly become "an obvious existential threat to our whole being", the most senior British military officer in Nato has said in a strongly worded speech.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/20/russia-existential-threat-british-nato-general

Such words from NATO are very surprising as NATO considered Russia "very weak militarily" just yesterday.

 

[jouni]

No country in the world is ideal.

Military is for External Threat.

Finland should have the smallest army in the world. But can they? The fear of Russia and its past experience makes it have an Armed Force, which many may think is counter-productive in size and in maintaining it and the money could be put to better use for the citizenry.

At least they make cool videos with the money they got! Seriously, I am sooo happy that we did not scrap our defense like most of West Europe did...

 

[apple]

Being objective is less than feasible when comment is coming from rabidly anti-Russian country. Tusk & co openly hate Russia and frequently make up "facts" or more often than not, flat out lie about it.

It does not make it "not true" as you say but it makes it far less likely to actually has any substance.

And NO i'm not denying that Russia HAS sent limited military hardware assistance. It IS however a reactive policy in order to:
1. protect its people who lived there before Ukraine was constituted and got completely deprived of their voting right by having person who they voted for removed
2. Protect people who became "legitimate" target of new authority suspiciously championed by "one indispensable nation" known for its... how to say it... "humble intentions" (if you want to be polight)
3. Its own interests from US foreign policy that openly states that its interest are on every corner of this planet.

No, not at all, its not meant to be funny. You got it backwards my friend... Humor lies someplace else, logical deduction helps to abstract and dig out place where the real joke lies

Limited military assistance... Limited in that Russia has massive stockpiles of weaponry of which they've sent <1%. But, they would have supplied 100% (or near enough that it makes no difference) of the seperatist's weapons and they've supplied some pretty advanced/ capable stuff. Then there's Russian Army personnel, which isn't a subject I'll comment on.

But sure, there would be some anti Russia propanganda out there. The story you criticized though was about a single, captured RPG, which was why I was saying it wasn't much of a story.

Deductions and abstractions from your joke... Ukrainian border guards are stupid and Russians are liars, is that the point? Still don't get it and aren't sure why you want to be insulting your brother Slavs (which I thought was a big NO NO for Serbians).

But, anyway enjoy the thread. It's full of commentators more "Russian" than actually Russians, so I'm sure you'll get a lot of support for anything you write.

Although, have you ever watched an Indian movie? Like a Bollywood film, this thread is full of Indians making a pointless song and dance about nothing related to the plot and just goes on, and on, and on, and on...

 

[Ray]

I doubt that very much. It is a real war. Hypocrisy rarely leads to such wars.

The death toll in Ukraine has crossed 50000 and rising fast. The Kiev numbers are hogwash. The deaths earlier were scores per day. Now the figures are worse.

Russia takes it as a fight of survival. Unfortunately such statements have started coming from NATO heads too.


Russian expansionism may pose existential threat, says Nato general | World news | The Guardian

Such words from NATO are very surprising as NATO considered Russia "very weak militarily" just yesterday.

Apparently, you missed out the I wrote - they are at it for their self interest.

Ukrainians are merely pawns in the Great Game.

 

[bhramos]

Destroyed Bridge near Debaltseve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRZSJ8VcOOo

 

[jouni]

Although, have you ever watched an Indian movie? Like a Bollywood film, this thread is full of Indians making a pointless song and dance about nothing related to the plot and just goes on, and on, and on, and on...

@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=8222" target="_blank">apple</a>, this is the best of the day . I am yet to watch a Bollywood film, but with over 2000 posts in this thread, I am pretty sure I know what to expect! Still I heard they are quite successful, so all the best for Bollywood!

Somehow I envy our Indian friends, they have maintained this "loose wrist" approach towards life and the world!

 

[jouni]

Chechens protecting the property of the people on the occupied Donbass...

 

[apple]

@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=8222" target="_blank">apple</a>, this is the best of the day . I am yet to watch a Bollywood film, but with over 2000 posts in this thread, I am pretty sure I know what to expect! Still I heard they are quite successful, so all the best for Bollywood!

Somehow I envy our Indian friends, they have maintained this "loose wrist" approach towards life and the world!

Lagaan is the only Bollywood film that I've managed to watch from beginning to end. Although, I may have dozed off sometime during those four (yes seriously it was 4 hours long) hours. The film's cricket scenes were good.

Evil British,
benevolent, rich Muslim Moguls,
all singing and dancing poor, but happy, villagers... the film had it all

 

[Vlaad]

Not what I asked, but ill play...

For me the biggest problem is that it looks like you compare Russian "choice" with Western "choice" like two apples, like it was a matter of choise, nothing more. I do not see it like that. The "Eastern" part of Europe, especially Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are way behind EU in all development areas. They are corrupt countries, you can even call them Kleptocracies, the wealth from the natural riches goes to the Elite. Look at Russian economy and infrastructure, all the factories that work there and are competitive are branches of Western companies.

Excuse me... In "home of free" (I had to say it) how many people make decisions and how is wealth distributed? That's right: 1% control policy and hold to some estimates near 40% of capital. I could do more but its not thread about bashing US. Russia corruption has got nothing on US corruption, after all US kills entire nations for its interest.

For me this question is about standard of living a country can provide to its citizen, that is the solely measure of success. In that game "west" wins every time. We are all in this planet for so short time, that we all should have a change to a good life. Let me give you few examples from my everyday life. I live 20 km from Russia and can compare:

Not really measure of success, its something else: Live and let live. IMHO. You have a choice you don't like Russia? DON'T GO THERE! They wont come to you, they wont force they're values on you. WEST WILL.

1.When I go to Russia, I see one serious car accident in a day, in Finland I cant remember when I last time saw one. ( Russia has 10 times more road accidents than Finland per capita)

True, but so what? IMHO its more of a running joke on Russian people more than anything else. How does that anything to do with Ukraine?

2. When I go to Russia, I cannot drink tab water, in Finland I can

Don't go there.

3. Russia in the Kola peninsula, you have areas that all forests have died in 30km perimeter around towns with heavy metal processing plants, Northern Finland is the cleanest place in Europe

Ok but its on Russian territory so who cares? In us almost every car has a v8 and its a country that has poorest gas millage of any nation but so what?

4. When I go to Russia, I have to keep cash, so I can pay to bribed police officers when they stop me for no reason, In Finland the most corrupt free place in the world.

Again don't go there. Those corrupt cops wont come to Finns. BTW I have different opinion but why would I discuss this?

5. When I meet my friend in Russia I have to be very careful, they are very hospitable, but I pay the bill most times. In Finland a school teacher earns 3000 Euros a month, in Russia 300 Euros a moth

You don't have to. Quite obviously nobody is forcing you to pay anything. Let me give an example: in SFRJ pay would be (adjusted for today) similar to Finland. Now its less than that, and thats what west did with sanctions and forcing their system upon people here. If west is so gold why then every country on Balkans is crumbling?

6. When I talk with my Russian friends, I know that they have to be careful at what they say. There is only one official truth, that you have to use when more than 2 people close by

That gave me a good laugh... I mean there is official Finnish bullhorn media (Moscow times) that openly lies by spewing west propaganda in heart of Russia.

7. I was following a project, where they planned new railroad from Finland to Russia. it turned out that one kilometer of railroad in Russia costs 2.5 times more than in Finland. Yet the salaries are lower? The whole country runs on corruption for every investment dollar, 1.5 dollars goes to corruption

Obviosly you haven't been in prosperous EU/nato members Bulgaria, Bosnia (I dare you to go there and try saying half of thing that you say in Russia) and so on.

8. When I go to Russia, I usually bring some gifts to my friends father who is a pensioner, pension is so low that you cannot survive on it the most cases without help

So what? Pro west part of ex-yu pensions keep nation afloat! At least 1 in 3 has no job (officially). In practice its worse. West values my arse.

9. When I go to Russia, I see well dressed military men, salaries in the military are the highest in Russian society, how can the country develop if doctors and teachers earn pennies compared to securty and military people.

Because that's internal policy of Russia and again it has nothing to do with topic.

10. My friend works in the government, he cant visit me in Finland, because they are told to avoid travelling to EU. Whant kind of country restricts people like that?

He can but he is not recommended to do so. You seem like a nice fellow, I dare you to come in Serbia (pro west as you say it) and try to share your beliefs next to ruins of Zezelj bridge of west domocracy. In short, you can travel, but I would not recommend it. Go to EU/NATO member of Croatia and visit burial ground of Jasenovac death camp

You see, these are just few examples. People in the Russian "sphere of influence" are stuck with problems that we got rid of over 50 years ago. Who wants that to a fellow man? I am not racist, but can you explain to me why these problems are most evident in countries close to Russia, like Russian themselves, Ukraine, Belarus, Greece and Serbia? Is it the Slaviness? Orthodos faith? Legacy of Socialistic system? Tell me, because I do not know.

Russians are not forcing they're values on anyone. And please SLAVIC AND ORTHODOX. Orthodox IS christian by the way. If you ask me, slavic people are stubborn as hell we dont like anyone forcing our values on them and main thing is you cant force anything ON Russia. Also one more thing about slav people (and trust me on this one): If you do manage to force your belief on them they will become "bigger pope than A Pope". IMHO.
Everything that made SFRJ great was made in (wait for it) Socialist Federal Republic of Yu. Most prosperous country on Balkans was forced into submission and now we have 10 times lower incomes if you can get a job at all than in socialist period. Explain to me about "democracy" please?
***
Jouni, you didn't answer my question. Not one. There is only one reason why I wrote wall of text so you could understand how similar this scenario is. I will repeat it one more time:

1.Why the "civilized" world of west has such double standards?
2.Why didn't they support integrity of federal state (SFRJ) and later of Serbia itself when they so rabidly support it in Ukraine?
3.What makes their approach in Ukraine different than one they constituted here?

We already concluded that you support western values. Please elaborate above mentioned examples.

And please lets not talk about "why Finland is great and Russia is not", lets talk about US/Russia approach in Ukraine.

My opinion is pure unadulterated shameless geopolitical and abuse of legitimate interest.

 

[sgarg]

Limited military assistance... Limited in that Russia has massive stockpiles of weaponry of which they've sent <1%. But, they would have supplied 100% (or near enough that it makes no difference) of the seperatist's weapons and they've supplied some pretty advanced/ capable stuff. Then there's Russian Army personnel, which isn't a subject I'll comment on.

But sure, there would be some anti Russia propanganda out there. The story you criticized though was about a single, captured RPG, which was why I was saying it wasn't much of a story.

Deductions and abstractions from your joke... Ukrainian border guards are stupid and Russians are liars, is that the point? Still don't get it and aren't sure why you want to be insulting your brother Slavs (which I thought was a big NO NO for Serbians).

But, anyway enjoy the thread. It's full of commentators more "Russian" than actually Russians, so I'm sure you'll get a lot of support for anything you write.

Although, have you ever watched an Indian movie? Like a Bollywood film, this thread is full of Indians making a pointless song and dance about nothing related to the plot and just goes on, and on, and on, and on...

Can you point the "pointless" part of it??

It is an open forum and anybody can post his/her opinion. It is not a question of if you like mine or I like yours.

Present your arguments and evidence (opinions welcome too).

I do not watch Bollywood movies. I realized long back that Hollywood movies are as false as Bollywood. Bollywood has learnt from Hollywood the technique as well as ideas.

 

[jackprince]

That looks like plastic replicas of real things.

Too clean and too smooth contours.

In a conflict, no concentration bunches up as if on a military parade.

Dispersal is one of the basic essential in combat, even when in 'harbour'.

It was Russians trolling the 'fake' evidences produced by Biden and his ilk about 'Russian Aggression in UKR'.

 

[jouni]

Russians are not forcing they're values on anyone. And please SLAVIC AND ORTHODOX. Orthodox IS christian by the way. If you ask me, slavic people are stubborn as hell we dont like anyone forcing our values on them and main thing is you cant force anything ON Russia. Also one more thing about slav people (and trust me on this one): If you do manage to force your belief on them they will become "bigger pope than A Pope". IMHO.
Everything that made SFRJ great was made in (wait for it) Socialist Federal Republic of Yu. Most prosperous country on Balkans was forced into submission and now we have 10 times lower incomes if you can get a job at all than in socialist period. Explain to me about "democracy" please?
***
Jouni, you didn't answer my question. Not one. There is only one reason why I wrote wall of text so you could understand how similar this scenario is. I will repeat it one more time:

1.Why the "civilized" world of west has such double standards?
2.Why didn't they support integrity of federal state (SFRJ) and later of Serbia itself when they so rabidly support it in Ukraine?
3.What makes their approach in Ukraine different than one they constituted here?

We already concluded that you support western values. Please elaborate above mentioned examples.

And please lets not talk about "why Finland is great and Russia is not", lets talk about US/Russia approach in Ukraine.

My opinion is pure unadulterated shameless geopolitical and abuse of legitimate interest.

Thanks for your post, I try to answer better. I remember in the old times Yugoslavia was seen as a "semi soviet block", I guess we have some similarities about our relation to Russian power block. You seem to be very stubborn in a good way. That is one thing I like about Russians, even if through my eyes they seem to be struggling, they still are very patriotic and proud people. At the end of the day all material is just that, there are other things that are just as important.

Also to be honest: Russian women call Finnish men "горячие финские мальчики", "Hot Finnish men"...good joke. We are in most case the opposite, quiet, shy, maybe not the best looking and fashion is maybe not the first criteria to all of us when choosing clothes...

I really cannot answer largely on behalf of "the west", I have never been in the US and I am quite skeptical in many respect towards them: mainly in social issues, I really do not care so much about geopolitics, my country have sometimes been allied with Russia, some other times with Sweden, then with Germany... we are quite flexible in that regard...

Here is the answers:

1. I guess in the case of Yugoslavia the key point was the aftermath of Srebrenica... people in the west just realized that ten years of civil war has to come to an end. Military power safely from the air was the answer... I understand that in civil wars there is no right or wrong, it all depends on perspective. The main thing is that after bombings the war ended. I remember when bombings were at 1999 one of my colleagues was a serb girl. She had to take leave from work, she took it so seriously. About double standards... that is difficult question. Maybe the ultimate answer is that the powerful has the choice and he uses it like he wants.

2. I do not know, I guess the Ukraine situation came so quickly that there was no "master plan". My personal view is that Ukraine 2014 is Finland 1918, the process to break free from Russian influence... that is painful and bloody process, especially when Ukraine is so "russolized" with Russian sympathizers in many key places. I cannot remember Former Yugoslavian history well enough to give you good answers.

3. Like I said, I do not know... I hope that the healing process goes forward in Serbia, you can live with the past, maybe learn and look for the future. Unemployment is a problem everywhere, some countries manage it better than others. Look at Poland, EU invests there annually over 60Bn dollars in development... Poland is back on its feet, both economically and mentally. They are proud nation. I hope the same for Serbia, that you could take your place in Europe as a proud member who makes us all stronger. I hope the same for Russia and Ukraine also, the way forward is peaceful co-operation, not conflict and hatred fueled by past wrongdoings.

Also on a wider perspective I see that second world war was a European civil war, great powers of Europe had been fighting each other for centuries...it took outside player to stop that ( US and to some extent Soviet Union ). Similarly it took outside player NATO to stop Balkans civil war. Ukraine we will see, Russia is too strong militarily, so west will rely mainly on sanctions. Remember that Russia's economy is only the size of Italy, so even they are not so strong that everybody think, war is expensive business. I still think that Russia's main stake in Ukraine is the government model. They are afraid that Ukraine will become like Poland, a stable democracy. That sets an bad example to Russia, which have always been ruled by authoritarian ruler ( Czar, The Party and now Putin ) I am not badmouthing Russia, it is just a fact.

 

[Vlaad]

1.Limited military assistance... Limited in that Russia has massive stockpiles of weaponry of which they've sent <1%. But, they would have supplied 100% (or near enough that it makes no difference) of the seperatist's weapons and they've supplied some pretty advanced/ capable stuff. Then there's Russian Army personnel, which isn't a subject I'll comment on.

2.But sure, there would be some anti Russia propanganda out there. The story you criticized though was about a single, captured RPG, which was why I was saying it wasn't much of a story.

3.Deductions and abstractions from your joke... Ukrainian border guards are stupid and Russians are liars, is that the point? Still don't get it and aren't sure why you want to be insulting your brother Slavs (which I thought was a big NO NO for Serbians).

4.But, anyway enjoy the thread. It's full of commentators more "Russian" than actually Russians, so I'm sure you'll get a lot of support for anything you write.

5.Although, have you ever watched an Indian movie? Like a Bollywood film, this thread is full of Indians making a pointless song and dance about nothing related to the plot and just goes on, and on, and on, and on...

Ahem.
1. You see, I'm not blind. IF Russia decided to invade there is no one force to stop them from reaching Kiev within a week or 2. So yes were VERY VERY limited support for ethnic Russians who by the way didn't attack anyone. Considering that they are pawns in geopolitical game that west is pulling id say that I can hardly believe how restrained Russia is.

2. Biggest western media houses are not "some" they are mainstream. Yes that particular one is not by itself anything but in bigger context of proving blatant lies put forward by mainstream, its is something else.

3. That's a rather simple analysis. And joke is no more funny than invading army giving passports to official governments border guards. I don't want to be preached about Slavs and relations between their nations by someone who does not know anything about it in the first place. Picture this: I know western democracy first hand, I know what western media does first hand and aside from my own education I consider myself qualified to comment. IF I HAD to comment, Russians did learn what is going to happen when someone forces their self-found-values on them. Ukraine people did not and I feel that west has achieved great victory there.

4. I do thank you. I so seldomly enjoy healthy reason. I would point you to BBC reporter who almost got killed in UA shelling in Donetsk and then concluded that NAF are shelling themselves and this is not isolated case. Like we crushed Iraq because WMD then hanged its president, killed Gaddafi thrown Lybia in chaos because he be evil, bombed Serbia killed their president (Milosevic died in Hague prison) because they wont let Kosovo be USA enclave, we want to kill Assad because freedom and so on. By what reason do you trust in western values?

5. Yes. Khatarnak is the name (2 headed monster) and Singham. I bearly survived laughs but hell it was fun and I enjoyed as much as grindhouse movies (machette, planet terror, death proof). Its good to relax and your point/reference about it is?

Now your turn:
What were western diplomats doing supporting toppling Yanukovich regime? What with "original" 21 of February agreement? It is much better proven (Nuland stated that they invested 5bln to democracy half of ocean away) than alleged support & invasion.

 

[Vlaad]

Thanks for your post, I try to answer better. I remember in the old times Yugoslavia was seen as a "semi soviet block", I guess we have some similarities about our relation to Russian power block. You seem to be very stubborn in a good way. That is one thing I like about Russians, even if through my eyes they seem to be struggling, they still are very patriotic and proud people. At the end of the day all material is just that, there are other things that are just as important.

Also to be honest: Russian women call Finnish men "горячие финские мальчики", "Hot Finnish men"...good joke. We are in most case the opposite, quiet, shy, maybe not the best looking and fashion is maybe not the first criteria to all of us when choosing clothes...

I really cannot answer largely on behalf of "the west", I have never been in the US and I am quite skeptical in many respect towards them: mainly in social issues, I really do not care so much about geopolitics, my country have sometimes been allied with Russia, some other times with Sweden, then with Germany... we are quite flexible in that regard...

Here is the answers:

1. I guess in the case of Yugoslavia the key point was the aftermath of Srebrenica... people in the west just realized that ten years of civil war has to come to an end. Military power safely from the air was the answer... I understand that in civil wars there is no right or wrong, it all depends on perspective. The main thing is that after bombings the war ended. I remember when bombings were at 1999 one of my colleagues was a serb girl. She had to take leave from work, she took it so seriously. About double standards... that is difficult question. Maybe the ultimate answer is that the powerful has the choice and he uses it like he wants.

2. I do not know, I guess the Ukraine situation came so quickly that there was no "master plan". My personal view is that Ukraine 2014 is Finland 1918, the process to break free from Russian influence... that is painful and bloody process, especially when Ukraine is so "russolized" with Russian sympathizers in many key places. I cannot remember Former Yugoslavian history well enough to give you good answers.

3. Like I said, I do not know... I hope that the healing process goes forward in Serbia, you can live with the past, maybe learn and look for the future. Unemployment is a problem everywhere, some countries manage it better than others. Look at Poland, EU invests there annually over 60Bn dollars in development... Poland is back on its feet, both economically and mentally. They are proud nation. I hope the same for Serbia, that you could take your place in Europe as a proud member who makes us all stronger. I hope the same for Russia and Ukraine also, the way forward is peaceful co-operation, not conflict and hatred fueled by past wrongdoings.

Also on a wider perspective I see that second world war was a European civil war, great powers of Europe had been fighting each other for centuries...it took outside player to stop that ( US and to some extent Soviet Union ). Similarly it took outside player NATO to stop Balkans civil war. Ukraine we will see, Russia is too strong militarily, so west will rely mainly on sanctions. Remember that Russia's economy is only the size of Italy, so even they are not so strong that everybody think, war is expensive business. I still think that Russia's main stake in Ukraine is the government model. They are afraid that Ukraine will become like Poland, a stable democracy. That sets an bad example to Russia, which have always been ruled by authoritarian ruler ( Czar, The Party and now Putin ) I am not badmouthing Russia, it is just a fact.

Thank's for reply, ill get back to topic a bit later.

 

[jouni]

 

[pmaitra]

Thanks for your post, I try to answer better. I remember in the old times Yugoslavia was seen as a "semi soviet block", I guess we have some similarities about our relation to Russian power block.

Soviet bloc was the Warsaw Pact. Yugoslavia was never part of the Warsaw Pact. So, it was not a semi or anything of a Soviet bloc. So, I don't know what you claim to "remember in the old times."

You seem to be very stubborn in a good way.

Who is not stubborn?