China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[Emperor Kalki]

Very interesting picture posted here:

The MiG-29K is in full afterburners. The J-15 looks like it is taking off dry.

Seems consistent
View attachment 182226
View attachment 182227
View attachment 182228
View attachment 182229

compared to the MiG-29K:
View attachment 182230
View attachment 182233

Dude, please

Look, I have been here long enogh to know that you guys crave some kind of gratification by expressing disdain and deriding others over the belief that you are somehow "superior" to them. But you are taking this too far now.

First things first, that is not full afterburner. I also saw your post regarding j 20 doing some climb without afterburners. But let me tell you, you can't say that's on dry thrust just because you don't see trail of in the exhaust. There is a lot between afterburner kicking in and full afterburner. And yes, the trail comes well before full afterburner too, just like the pic of mig 29k you shared, not on full afterburner, but definitely on wet thrust.

Anyway coming back to the vikramaditya images discussion, just google for naval tejas tests from vikramaditya. See how much afterburner trail you can see from the supposedly underpowered and overweight jet. But does mig 29k take off from vikramaditya on afterburners? Yes, it does, mostly on full afterburners itself. Is that gonna be a problem? Not at all. Its about the lift you generate. The speed is used for that. And su 33 has a much larger wing area, so...

And about the carriers themselves, just ask yourself, why does china want carriers? What does china want its carriers to do? What is their objective and how does Indian navy's objectives differ from that?

Then you will know why India has what it has and china, its own. Same is the key to understand why china went with the larger su 33 derivative and why India chose mig 29K over it. There is no way India would choose su 33 or any derivative of it even today if it was offered at half the price of rafales or hornets.

View attachment 182230

And a genuine question to other members here. Is this picture actually real or is it edited? Has been bugging me for some time now.

 

[NutCracker]

Very interesting picture posted here:

The MiG-29K is in full afterburners. The J-15 looks like it is taking off dry.

Seems consistent
View attachment 182226
View attachment 182227
View attachment 182228
View attachment 182229

compared to the MiG-29K:
View attachment 182230
View attachment 182233

Listen CCP'S LITTLE PINK MAGGOT..

I have been watching you talk Bullshit
for pretty long..

J-15 take off with dry thrust ??

See J-15's beautiful dry thrust.

@Emperor Kalki
don't pay attention to these paid nincompoops.
Their IQ is equal to the anal swabs they have to go through daily thanks to emperor XI:s zero Covid policy.

@jai jaganath
Stop giving thumbs up to such pathetic posts made by CCP Stooges.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

There should have been nothing about Indian carriers in this thread but an Indian poster claimed that anything India do or gets is better than China.

So we investigated and showed our findings.

Chinese carriers and the J-15 are many times more available than Indian carriers and the MiG-29K since no Indian carrier had been been operational in two years.

That 's undisputable.

If you are upset then we should just return this thread to CV-17 Shandong and everyone would be happy

 

[NutCracker]

CCP members can post as their wish..but it took me just 1 min to find pic of J-15 taking off with after burner .

Obvious and easy to debunk propaganda should be avoided if this is considered a serious thread.

And comparisons will happen . It's unavoidable. And propaganda will face rebuttal.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Dude, please

Look, I have been here long enogh to know that you guys crave some kind of gratification by expressing disdain and deriding others over the belief that you are somehow "superior" to them. But you are taking this too far now.

First things first, that is not full afterburner. I also saw your post regarding j 20 doing some climb without afterburners. But let me tell you, you can't say that's on dry thrust just because you don't see trail of in the exhaust. There is a lot between afterburner kicking in and full afterburner. And yes, the trail comes well before full afterburner too, just like the pic of mig 29k you shared, not on full afterburner, but definitely on wet thrust.

Anyway coming back to the vikramaditya images discussion, just google for naval tejas tests from vikramaditya. See how much afterburner trail you can see from the supposedly underpowered and overweight jet. But does mig 29k take off from vikramaditya on afterburners? Yes, it does, mostly on full afterburners itself. Is that gonna be a problem? Not at all. Its about the lift you generate. The speed is used for that. And su 33 has a much larger wing area, so...

And about the carriers themselves, just ask yourself, why does china want carriers? What does china want its carriers to do? What is their objective and how does Indian navy's objectives differ from that?

Then you will know why India has what it has and china, its own. Same is the key to understand why china went with the larger su 33 derivative and why India chose mig 29K over it. There is no way India would choose su 33 or any derivative of it even today if it was offered at half the price of rafales or hornets.


And a genuine question to other members here. Is this picture actually real or is it edited? Has been bugging me for some time now.

I agree there might be the difference between full AB and a lower setting of AB perhaps.

But that in itself means the J-15 doesn't have to go full AB and use up fuel at an extreme unlike the MiG-29K.

Even compared to SU-33 launches, the J-15's AB flame is a lot less visible, you can see it:

J-15:

At any rate, the J-15/SU-33 use shorter take off launch points and the Russians had found they could launch with full fuel and full weapons load even from the short position.

We can drop things here and just back to the Shandong or we can continue. It is up to you. BTW, I have not used insults -- just evaluation of pictures and supporting literature -- even though this comparison was instigated by an Indian poster.

 

[J20!]

Dude, please

Look, I have been here long enogh to know that you guys crave some kind of gratification by expressing disdain and deriding others over the belief that you are somehow "superior" to them. But you are taking this too far now.

First things first, that is not full afterburner. I also saw your post regarding j 20 doing some climb without afterburners. But let me tell you, you can't say that's on dry thrust just because you don't see trail of in the exhaust. There is a lot between afterburner kicking in and full afterburner. And yes, the trail comes well before full afterburner too, just like the pic of mig 29k you shared, not on full afterburner, but definitely on wet thrust.

Anyway coming back to the vikramaditya images discussion, just google for naval tejas tests from vikramaditya. See how much afterburner trail you can see from the supposedly underpowered and overweight jet. But does mig 29k take off from vikramaditya on afterburners? Yes, it does, mostly on full afterburners itself. Is that gonna be a problem? Not at all. Its about the lift you generate. The speed is used for that. And su 33 has a much larger wing area, so...

And about the carriers themselves, just ask yourself, why does china want carriers? What does china want its carriers to do? What is their objective and how does Indian navy's objectives differ from that?

Then you will know why India has what it has and china, its own. Same is the key to understand why china went with the larger su 33 derivative and why India chose mig 29K over it. There is no way India would choose su 33 or any derivative of it even today if it was offered at half the price of rafales or hornets.


And a genuine question to other members here. Is this picture actually real or is it edited? Has been bugging me for some time now.

Listen CCP'S LITTLE PINK MAGGOT..

I have been watching you talk Bullshit
for pretty long..

J-15 take off with dry thrust ??

See J-15's beautiful dry thrust.

View attachment 182310


@Emperor Kalki
don't pay attention to these paid nincompoops.
Their IQ is equal to the anal swabs they have to go through daily thanks to emperor XI:s zero Covid policy.

@jai jaganath
Stop giving thumbs up to such pathetic posts made by CCP Stooges.

Different geopolitical circumstances, different requirements, a wide gap in available budget and human resources, and a massive difference in industrial base.

CV16/17 are better maintained, manned and equipped to deliver airwings to areas of operation at sustainable sortie rates.

It's not a sense of superiority. It's correcting erroneous posts based on nationalism alone. If the correction disturbs you more than the physics defying BS, then thats a problem for yiu not me. Why make or encourage false claims?

There's no need to bring up Vikrant or Vikramaditya or Mig29K or Cochin and Indian shipbuilding on this thread. There's no real competitive comparison. So why compare?

 

[J20!]

I agree there might be the difference between full AB and a lower setting of AB perhaps.

But that in itself means the J-15 doesn't have to go full AB and use up fuel at an extreme unlike the MiG-29K.

Even compared to SU-33 launches, the J-15's AB flame is a lot less visible, you can see it:
View attachment 182328
View attachment 182329

J-15:
View attachment 182335

View attachment 182339

At any rate, the J-15/SU-33 use shorter take off launch points and the Russians had found they could launch with full fuel and full weapons load even from the short position.

We can drop things here and just back to the Shandong or we can continue. It is up to you. BTW, I have not used insults -- just evaluation of pictures and supporting literature -- even though this comparison was instigated by an Indian poster.

I think it's standard practice across all Carrier naval operations to engage full afterburner at take off on fighter aircraft.

Different afterburn blooms. The Al31 on J15 has a blue/white hue that's more visible in the night time spectrum. Which is why night ops takeoff show a much brighter bloom.

The Rd on Mig29K burns brighter in daylight which is why one looks to be in full afterburner while J15 does not. They both are though.

 

[NutCracker]

Different geopolitical circumstances, different requirements, a wide gap in available budget and human resources, and a massive difference in industrial base.

CV16/17 are better maintained, manned and equipped to deliver airwings to areas of operation at sustainable sortie rates.

It's not a sense of superiority. It's correcting erroneous posts based on nationalism alone. If the correction disturbs you more than the physics defying BS, then thats a problem for yiu not me. Why make or encourage false claims?

There's no need to bring up Vikrant or Vikramaditya or Mig29K or Cochin and Indian shipbuilding on this thread. There's no real competitive comparison. So why compare?

See.. by the time Fujian becomes operational , even Vikrant would've gotten it's airwing fully operational.

So China has upper hand with just 1 extra Catobar, if it manages to maintain 200 days at sea by 2030.

And all that blabbering about industry and Budget ..
But we saw that on the eve of Pelosy's arrival your Carriers were busy cowering at the docks.

C16/17 are equivalent to Vikrant and Vikramaditya .
Not better not worse.

 

[J20!]

See.. by the time Fujian becomes operational , even Vikrant would've gotten it's airwing fully operational.

So China has upper hand with just 1 extra Catobar, if it manages to maintain 200 days at sea by 2030.

No Indian carrier HAS EVER managed 200 days of operations at sea. Why would that be necessary to maintain parity with the IN?

At present, chinese availability with CV16 and 17 are higher than Vikramaditya which hasn't been operational in more than a year. Even with Vikrant in service maybe next year or rhe year after, the IN will still lack parity in available airwings at sea. So again... why the comparison? Fujian will just take the numbers even higher.

And all that blabbering about industry and Budget ..
But we saw that on the eve of Pelosy's arrival your Carriers were busy cowering at the docks.

Budget translates to more aircraft carriers, more shipyards available to build and maint them; more airwings and local industry to build and maintain them and higher availability of human resourcing/training/availability.

The PLAN's carrier airwings are still nowhere near the capability available to the USN. But vis-a-vis the IN? The capability gap is obvious.

Even then, the USN is more likely to use SSNs and Bombers to target PLAN Carrier groups and SAGs.

C16/17 are equivalent to Vikrant and Vikramaditya .
Not better not worse.

@SexyChineseLady has already detailed the capability gap between Vikramaditya/Vikrant and CV16/17 in generating and sustaining air operations.

The 2 PLAN ships are roughly 30% larger; have better elevator placement and fuel/ammo storage capacity than Vikramaditya for the first and both for the latter.

Sensors, hanger space, available deck space, deck configuration etc all favor the Chinesr STOBAR's

 

[SexyChineseLady]

See.. by the time Fujian becomes operational , even Vikrant would've gotten it's airwing fully operational.

So China has upper hand with just 1 extra Catobar, if it manages to maintain 200 days at sea by 2030.

And all that blabbering about industry and Budget ..
But we saw that on the eve of Pelosy's arrival your Carriers were busy cowering at the docks.

C16/17 are equivalent to Vikrant and Vikramaditya .
Not better not worse.

The two carriers were moved to either side of Taiwan during the Pelosi incident as a simulated blockade (before missiles were fired over Taiwan.)

In was all over the news globally. Even Indian media reported on it

Right now, there is no operational Indian carrier. No Indian MiG-29K had landed on an carrier in more than two years.

There is no comparison when Liaoning was launching hundreds of sorties off Okinawa and the Shandong was launching hundreds of J-15 sorties with a full CBG in the South China Sea and there was no Indian carrier even operational.

 

[NutCracker]

No Indian carrier HAS EVER managed 200 days of operations at sea. Why would that be necessary to maintain parity with the IN?

At present, chinese availability with CV16 and 17 are higher than Vikramaditya which hasn't been operational in more than a year. Even with Vikrant in service maybe next year or rhe year after, the IN will still lack parity in available airwings at sea. So again... why the comparison? Fujian will just take the numbers even higher.



Budget translates to more aircraft carriers, more shipyards available to build and maint them; more airwings and local industry to build and maintain them and higher availability of human resourcing/training/availability.

The PLAN's carrier airwings are still nowhere near the capability available to the USN. But vis-a-vis the IN? The capability gap is obvious.

Even then, the USN is more likely to use SSNs and Bombers to target PLAN Carrier groups and SAGs.





@SexyChineseLady has already detailed the capability gap between Vikramaditya/Vikrant and CV16/17 in generating and sustaining air operations.

The 2 PLAN ships are roughly 30% larger; have better elevator placement and fuel/ammo storage capacity than Vikramaditya for the first and both for the latter.

Sensors, hanger space, available deck space, deck configuration etc all favor the

I should've been clear.. I meant 200 days in total..
Fujian might see Frist real tour by 2027.. let's see in those 3 years does it manage total 200 days in sea .

All that blabber about big budget but China still has only 2 AC capable of launching jets so that itself makes us even.
There is no big gap between chinese Stobar Carriers and Indian Stobar carriers. You can fool yourself as much as you want by comparing that gap with US-PLAN .

I don't know what that second CCP LITTLE PINK member has posted. But the yesterday's demo was very underwhelming and it was debunked easily. Similar is the case for the 80% bullshit posted here.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

There is no big gap between chinese Stobar Carriers and Indian Stobar carriers. You can fool yourself as much as you want by comparing that gap with US-PLAN .

That is a very delusional statement when:

Why Indian Navy pilots haven’t landed on an aircraft carrier in 2 yrs & won't anytime soon

While INS Vikramaditya's repair and refit process is delayed, landing on aircraft carrier INS Vikrant will likely take place early 2023. Meanwhile, naval pilots train on a shore-based test facility in Goa.

theprint.in

There is no comparison. In general Indian carriers and carrier aircraft are far inferior in size, range and availability when your carrier arm cannot even do on ship launch and recovery for TWO years.

 

[Alamarathan]

Beyond the heavily foreign nature of the Indian carriers' makeup (which leads

Hey bruh how you doin,its me again

Idk why you are comparing your flotilla against indian Navy, aren't you supposed to be preparing against pacific threats like us and Japanese floaters.

Another key problem is,chinese carrier's ain't gonna be anywhere near indian ocean, especially considering all your careers running on fossil fuel.

Our careers designed under philosophy of where we intend to deploy them,so anything you mentioned as shortcomings will be taken account during its operational life.

 

[NutCracker]

The two carriers were moved to either side of Taiwan during the Pelosi incident as a simulated blockade (before missiles were fired over Taiwan.)

In was all over the news globally. Even Indian media reported on it

View attachment 182509


View attachment 182508

View attachment 182513

Right now, there is no operational Indian carrier. No Indian MiG-29K had landed on an carrier in more than two years.

There is no comparison when Liaoning was launching hundreds of sorties off Okinawa and the Shandong was launching hundreds of J-15 sorties with a full CBG in the South China Sea and there was no Indian carrier even operational.

​

See.. Both of your carriers are cowering under the protection of naval bases .

Aug1 then Aug3.

LoL , USA carriers are coser to Taiwan than CCP 's floating duck. That tells about its shitty quality and thankfully even CCP top brass knows it.

Did CCP'S Muppets forgot about their Nine-dash line

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Hey bruh how you doin,its me again

Idk why you are comparing your flotilla against indian Navy, aren't you supposed to be preparing against pacific threats like us and Japanese floaters.

Another key problem is,chinese carrier's ain't gonna be anywhere near indian ocean, especially considering all your careers running on fossil fuel.

Our careers designed under philosophy of where we intend to deploy them,so anything you mentioned as shortcomings will be taken account during its operational life.

I had no intention of comparing with Indian Navy until your Indian compatriot came to this thread stating everything India put up is better than China, remember this is a thread for CV-17 Shandong

I agree with you, China's fleet including its carriers will be almost entirely in the China Seas.

The philosophies are different and so are the realities. Navalwise, China has to plan against the USN and their allies on its coast while India has to plan for Pakistan on its coast. The needs are vastly different.

 

[Alamarathan]

The philosophies are different and so are the realities. Navalwise, China has to plan against the USN

Then start posting in the similar lines we are very much interested in learning your thought process wrt usn.

Also add taiwan,soko and Japanese based strategies,i mean wrt your career.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Post for Indian members, CCP bots can ignore.

You will find plenty of threads made by a few people which are supposed to be nothing more than glorified CCP propaganda pages, where they can gloat over achievements, fabricated or otherwise.

Treat these pages as simply an opportunity to keep an eye on chinese developments, instead of trying to have an actual discussion - With the shifting goalposts, heavy use of known propaganda sources, and general lack of fact based arguments (instead relying on anecdotes from shady sources), it is simply a waste of time.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Back to what this thread is for

 

[SexyChineseLady]

From South China Seas tour in September:

 

[J20!]

Hey bruh how you doin,its me again

Idk why you are comparing your flotilla against indian Navy, aren't you supposed to be preparing against pacific threats like us and Japanese floaters.

Another key problem is,chinese carrier's ain't gonna be anywhere near indian ocean, especially considering all your careers running on fossil fuel.

Our careers designed under philosophy of where we intend to deploy them,so anything you mentioned as shortcomings will be taken account during its operational life.

Exactly. Compare the PLAN to its immediate adversaries in the Pacific. JMSDF, USN, ROCN; not the IN.

Chinese carriers are doctrinally aimed at securing the 1st and 2nd Island chain. China's near periphery. Not to fight India in the Indian Ocean.

All the deployments and exercises involving either carrier thus far has involved the ECS, Western Pacific or South China Sea.

It's only the posters here of the India persuasion constantly insisting on comparing the much smaller IN with the PLANs naval build up.

I should've been clear.. I meant 200 days in total..
Fujian might see Frist real tour by 2027.. let's see in those 3 years does it manage total 200 days in sea .

All that blabber about big budget but China still has only 2 AC capable of launching jets so that itself makes us even.
There is no big gap between chinese Stobar Carriers and Indian Stobar carriers. You can fool yourself as much as you want by comparing that gap with US-PLAN .

I don't know what that second CCP LITTLE PINK member has posted. But the yesterday's demo was very underwhelming and it was debunked easily. Similar is the case for the 80% bullshit posted here.

How does that make PLAN and IN even? PLAN has 2 OPERATIONAL right now with fighter airwings and pilots qualifies to operate off of them. The IN has 0. Even after Vikrant reaches IOC and FOC, that won't lead to parity.

Even so, we have yet to see Vikramaditya generate the sortie rates of the PLAN carriers or operate more than 20 fighters. Because size, elevator and general deck configurations limitations on Vikramaditya and Vikrant do not allow for it.

Both CV16 and 17 have had more cruises and availability than Vikramaditya many times over, so again, why are you comparing the incomparable.

As to Fujian, she has new capability over the preceding class at 20 000tons more and with new electromagnetic Cats that's will need testing and validation... but 2027 is too far off. Going on CV17 timelines, 3 years is adequate for system integration, dockside testing, sea trials and operational service.

Even as the 60+ initial J15 batches and 18J/F work up flight hours off the 2 operational carriers, her future airwing of Z20F/J, KJ600 AEW, J35 and J15 are already in flight testing.

Recruitment and training of naval pilots and conversion from land based to carrier based jets is accelerating pace. New carrier basing and maintenance facilities have been completed in the South Sea Fleet. That's what a PLAN budget comparable to the entire Indian defence budget is enabling.

This need to come on the China Sub forum to claim "superiority or equal capability of Indian platforms vs Chinese" is nonsensical.

Post on the Vikrant thread how reality-defying your carriers are. This is not the place for it, no?