China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[Arjun Mk1A]

You understand this was planning by the PLAN, correct?

China has two Kiev class vessels and never bothered to convert them and had to go through a lot of hardship to get the Varyag and then rebuild the rusted hulk because it was the correct choice for the development of the carrier arm. It was a proper carrier unlike the Kiev class.

It was for the same reason why China chose the SU-33 instead of the MiG-29K. Because the SU-33 planform was a far better carrier fighter with far more potential than MiG-29K.

The only issue was Sukhoi was overloaded with Flankers orders and did not want to restart SU-33 line. So China went ahead with the J-15.

MiG was desperate for orders and India saved it by financing 29K

There are now many variants of J-15s including a CATOBAR version while India is looking to replace the brand new MiG-29Ks it has with CATOBAR F-18s and Rafales and India only has STOBAR carriers.

Planning seems very bad with the Indian carrier service in spite of the oft-mentioned experience compared to the Chinese one.

Indian is not looking to replace Mig 29K. It is asking additional 26 fighters to support the existing Mig29K fleet. Both of them will eventually give its way to TEDBF by 2032.

Mig 29K availability issue propped in 2017 and it was resolved within that year.

As for J-15. It is derived from SU-33 which itself have poor track record. The aircraft carries a weapons loadout 6500 Kg. Surprisingly the F-18 Super Hornet can carry nearly 8000 kg of payload by while being smaller in dimension.

So, you guys selected a much larger aircraft for carrier ops where space is constraint.

Hmm looks like poor planning.

 

[jai jaganath]

Okay, the reason could be because of corruption, lack of money or poor planning but the point is the Indian carrier arm is simply not in the same league as the Chinese one and the Indian poster who started the comparison should never have.

Whether it is the ships, aircraft, availability, sorties or operations in general, the two carrier arms aren't even close.

When the Indian navy do not have an operational carrier because it chose a helo cruiser conversion and is already actively trying to replace new carrier fighters then why bother comparing?

China's carriers are impacting other countries -- J-15s are not only launched in 100s of sorties but are creating hundreds of scrambles from Japanese fighters.

I don't know who compared or who didn't
I myself a great critic of IN AC procurement had to defend this thread as some wrong facts were propagating
I myself have commended the Chinese AC capabilities and how it's overpowering us although we having more experience than plan
But due to corruption and incompetency the things went bad but not as bad as u people are propagating
Same incase of vikrant

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Okay, the reason could be because of corruption, lack of money or poor planning but the point is the Indian carrier arm is simply not in the same league as the Chinese one and the Indian poster who started the comparison should never have.

Whether it is the ships, aircraft, availability, sorties or operations in general, the two carrier arms aren't even close.

When the Indian navy do not have an operational carrier because it chose a helo cruiser conversion and is already actively trying to replace new carrier fighters that it had chosen badly then why bother comparing?

China's carriers are impacting other countries -- J-15s are not only launched in 100s of sorties but are creating hundreds of scrambles from Japanese fighters.

Damn. You guys highlighted the Taiwan issue like Xi will rein hell while in reality you just sit and watch as US literally told you fuck off.

Hmm serious firepower from your side.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Indian is not looking to replace Mig 29K. It is asking additional 26 fighters to support the existing Mig29K fleet. Both of them will eventually give its way to TEDBF by 2032.

Mig 29K availability issue propped in 2017 and it was resolved within that year.

As for J-15. It is derived from SU-33 which itself have poor track record. The aircraft carries a weapons loadout 6500 Kg. Surprisingly the F-18 Super Hornet can carry nearly 8000 kg of payload by while being smaller in dimension.

So, you guys selected a much larger aircraft for carrier ops where space is constraint.

Hmm looks like poor planning.

You have 45 MiG-29Ks and you are paying more for expensive CATOBAR aircraft that may or may not fit on two Indian STOBARs who would rarely be operational at the same time even under best circumstances? The smaller Indian carriers would need how many planes each? The Russians only embarked only four MiG-29Ks on Kutznetsov against Syria!

And why not buy more MiG-29Ks for support? Sorry, this looks like a desperate replacement purchase.

China has no ability to buy the F-18 but it did have a choice between the SU-33 and the MiG-29K platform

A land based MiG-29 carries no more than 4000kg so a carrier version dependent on STOBAR would be a lot less. So right off the bat, the SU-33 is a more potent choice.

Now as far as the F-18 is concern we have no idea how much it can carry without a catapult

There is a catapult J-15 version in testing so let's see what kind of load it'll carry. Remember, it is a Flanker now without the penalties of STOBAR

There will be no MiG-29K catapult version because it is a dead-end design.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

You have 45 MiG-29Ks and you are paying for expensive CATOBAR aircraft that may or may not fit on two Indian STOBARs who would rarely be operational at the same time even under best circumstances? The smaller Indian carriers would need how many planes each? The Russians only embarked only four MiG-29Ks on Kutznetsov against Syria!

And why not buy more MiG-29Ks for support? Sorry, this looks like a desperate replacement purchase.

China has no ability to buy the F-18 but it did have a choice between the SU-33 and the MiG-29K platform

A land based MiG-29 carries no more than 4000kg so a carrier version dependent on STOBAR would be a lot less. So right off the bat, the SU-33 is a more potent choice.

Now as far as the F-18 is concern we have no idea how much it can carry without a catapult

There is a catapult J-15 version in testing so let's see what kind of load it'll carry. Remember, it is a Flanker now without the penalties of STOBAR

There will be no MiG-29K catapult version because it is a dead-end design.

Again, show me where IN wanted replacement for Mig 29K. It asked for additional fighters for better carrier ops. It even reduced to its requirement to mere 26. Both Rafale - M and Hornet demonstrated STOBAR capability. FGFA saga is the final nail in Russian planes purchase.

This is the interim one since IN become a sole mover of TEDBF project.

Again J-15 is erstwhile SU-33 which Russia consider itself inferior. Again, it is large plane. You cannot stack these one like USN stacking F-18 Hornets and F-35 due to its smaller footprint. Remember space is constraint in Carriers.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Again, show me where IN wanted replacement for Mig 29K. It asked for additional fighters for better carrier ops. It even reduced to its requirement to mere 26. Both Rafale - M and Hornet demonstrated STOBAR capability. FGFA saga is the final nail in Russian planes purchase.

This is the interim one since IN become a sole mover of TEDBF project.

Again J-15 is erstwhile SU-33 which Russia consider itself inferior. Again, it is large plane. You cannot stack these one like USN stacking F-18 Hornets and F-35 due to its smaller footprint. Remember space is constraint in Carriers.

Talk to us again when the F-18 or Rafale (or this made up TEDBF for that matter) is actually flying from an Indian STOBAR carrier. lol

No, it is to replace MiG-29K when you have 45 and still need more but of a completely different type that never flew from a STOBAR before. This is obvious to everyone.

As far as the SU-33 is concerned, which aircraft is the mainstay of the Russian air force -- the Flanker or the Fulcrum?

It is obviously the Flanker which what the SU-33 is. The MiG-29 is the inferior aircraft by far.

Russia has one carrier but in their Syrian operation, the Kutznetsov embarked 8 SU-33s and only 4 MiG-29K

The MiG-29K is not new. It first flew in 1988:

Mikoyan MiG-29K - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The MiG-29Ks first flight was performed on 23 July 1988 at Saky by test pilot Toktar Aubakirov. On 1 November 1989, on the same day as the Sukhoi Su-27K, Aubakirov executed the first carrier landing of MiG-29K on the aircraft-carrying cruiser Tbilisi (now known as Admiral Kuznetsov), the first take-off from the carrier's deck was successfully performed the same day. During 1989–1991, the MiG-29K underwent further tests aboard Admiral Kuznetsov. The project was put on hold with the collapse of the Soviet Union, while the Russian Navy only pursued the rival Su-33. Mikoyan continued work on the MiG-29K despite the lack of funding.

So you see, the Russian carrier arm picked the SU-33 but lack of funds and the closure of the SU-33 line forced it to use MiG-29K AFTER India paid for it.

I think using those pitiful 4 MiGs on the Kutznetsov (while the majority of its airwing were SU-33s) was only to make India feel better for funding a program that Russia itself never funded.

 

[J20!]

Oh oh such a unnecessary cry
It has been repeated numerous times in other threads that the actual dependency on foreign systems has been decreased as they didn't deliver them on time so we needed to develop it
Oh sorry but can u say how is it mostly dependent on foreign equipments baring few as our naval industry is not that matured as others
Planning was done on the supply chain constraint which was disrupted due to their ill intentions so we had to develope it as contingency plan

You're not getting the underlying point.

The South Koreans have indigenized large parts of the key subsystems on their destroyers. They're large conglomerates build the KD11 AND KG111 and the Dokd9s in house at Hyundai or Daewoo.

BUT they are not under any illusions that their supply lines are local. Lockheed and other Western suppliers have baked in assembly of radars, weapons systems, missiles, flight control etc etc etc.

Barack 8 is NOT completely indegenized. Even with SOME local assembly, orders still come through Israeli contractors.

Even Russia is struggling with supply of subsystems to ships and aircraft because of the Western and Ukrainian suppliers that used to provide key subsystems.

Delays with Vikrant have been tied to delays in procurement and supply of foreign subsystems. Yet many here still believe that assembling or servicing some subsystems = local manufacturing or full indegenization.

Or that having platforms built from mixed and matched foreign suppliers with complicated supply lines is somehow an advantage to local development and supply.

CV16 despite being a 20 year old Hull when first refurbished, is much more serviceable, ergo, has higher availability than Vikramaditya because its supply lines are all LOCAL. For the ship itself, sensors weapons systems AND its whole airwing.

CV17 will MOST LIKELY be much more serviceable than Vikrant. The ship and airwing have been demonstrating that regularly despite being first launched in 2017.

Why is this simple statement of fact controversial?

 

[jai jaganath]

You're not getting the underlying point.

The South Koreans have indigenized large parts of the key subsystems on their destroyers. They're large conglomerates build the KD11 AND KG111 and the Dokd9s in house at Hyundai or Daewoo.

BUT they are not under any illusions that their supply lines are local. Lockheed and other Western suppliers have baked in assembly of radars, weapons systems, missiles, flight control etc etc etc.

Barack 8 is NOT completely indegenized. Even with SOME local assembly, orders still come through Israeli contractors.

Even Russia is struggling with supply of subsystems to ships and aircraft because of the Western and Ukrainian suppliers that used to provide key subsystems.

Delays with Vikrant have been tied to delays in procurement and supply of foreign subsystems. Yet many here still believe that assembling or servicing some subsystems = local manufacturing or full indegenization.

Or that having platforms built from mixed and matched foreign suppliers with complicated supply lines is somehow an advantage to local development and supply.

CV16 despite being a 20 year old Hull when first refurbished, is much more serviceable, ergo, has higher availability than Vikramaditya because its supply lines are all LOCAL. For the ship itself, sensors weapons systems AND its whole airwing.

CV17 will MOST LIKELY be much more serviceable than Vikrant. The ship and airwing have been demonstrating that regularly despite being first launched in 2017.

Why is this simple statement of fact controversial?

I hope u don't have sense to Google few things to know
Barak 8 aka MRSAM was developed in a jv with Israelis they got Barak 8 we got MRSAM
Initially I mean till 2014-15 we had 50-50 production system but post 2015 MRSAM was complately manufactured in India
We are not like your dog Pakistani who claim assembly as manufacturing
We manufacturing radar modules for mf-star
We manufacturing 76mm srgm ak-630 other armaments
Except propulsion and few radars and landing equipments and here and there mostly things are indigenous be it sensors ew suite etc
I hope ur retarded brain has some constraint to understand it
Coming Vikramaditya there were equipments of Russian and foreign origin as we packed indigenous industry to meet those needs but during this year long refit many components would be given Indian counterpart but 1 year planning went vain due to fire incident due to which it got delayed 8-9 months
Remove constraints and superiority complex to learn
Coming again to Vikrant u don't know about its serviceability until its completely operational with much more indigenous equipments on board than actually planned as our industry matured
Claiming things before could be disastrous

 

[J20!]

I hope u don't have sense to Google few things to know
Barak 8 aka MRSAM was developed in a jv with Israelis they got Barak 8 we got MRSAM
Initially I mean till 2014-15 we had 50-50 production system but post 2015 MRSAM was complately manufactured in India
We are not like your dog Pakistani who claim assembly as manufacturing
We manufacturing radar modules for mf-star
We manufacturing 76mm srgm ak-630 other armaments
Except propulsion and few radars and landing equipments and here and there mostly things are indigenous be it sensors ew suite etc
I hope ur retarded brain has some constraint to understand it
Coming Vikramaditya there were equipments of Russian and foreign origin as we packed indigenous industry to meet those needs but during this year long refit many components would be given Indian counterpart but 1 year planning went vain due to fire incident due to which it got delayed 8-9 months
Remove constraints and superiority complex to learn
Coming again to Vikrant u don't know about its serviceability until its completely operational with much more indigenous equipments on board than actually planned as our industry matured
Claiming things before could be disastrous

No need to be rude. Can't your argument speak for itself?

The S Koreans, in the top 3 of shipbuilders world wide, do not claim to produce 100% of their Lockheed Martin designed naval air defence systems. Your claim is false.

In 2017 and 2018 IAI inked deals to supply Bharat with 1.6 Billion USD and 770 Million USD worth of Barak 8 missiles defence systems. The prior deal was touted as the biggest for a single defence form in Israeli history.

Call it 50-50 JV or 100% tech tranfer all you want, but there are SIGNIFICANT CRITICAL components of all Barak 8 systems produced SOLELY in Israel.

Which speaks to the point that I am making. Indian Naval industry may build warships, but most of the critical supporting infrastructure -R&D, sub-system manufacturing is NOT IN INDIA.

The Israelis are good, well funded development partners to have in air defence. Their IADS is arguably the best in the world. MRSAM and LRSAM are not produced independently by India. There is a procurement and supply dependency on IAI in Israel to make any system in IN or IA service operational or maintainable where MF Star and Barak8/MRSAM/LRSAM are concerned.

No one can precisely predict the future, but sure... maybe the shipyards who have been chronically behind schedule from project initiation will somehow manage to comply to the rigorous timeschedule needed to keep maintain a yearly time at sea over 25%.

But we all know Cochin's track record on project schedule delivery so I doubt it. Why are you pretending otherwise?

Ridicule the PAC for assembling Chinese weaponry, but India does the same for most of what is touted here as JV or 100% local manufacture.

Vikrant is a once off class ship, with its subsystems first ordered between 2007 and 2018, almost a decade late from first project live-date and a huge part of its supply chain stretching from Kochi to Israel, to Europe, the US, Russia and beyond.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Beyond the heavily foreign nature of the Indian carriers' makeup (which leads to maintenance and construction issues that sideline operation for years!), the design of the things are simply far inferior to the two carriers in China.

You would expect the carrier arm with supposedly decades more experience to buy and design the better carriers than the novice one!

But the reality is the Chinese carriers are far more capable and provide greater ability, availability and utility.

Top down view on the Liaoning and Shandong. The three launch positions (each backed by blast shields) with the short takeoff points way in front of the island which allow two of them to be marked off.

So two standbye fighters could be lined up at the short positions and sometimes even a third at the long position (see picture in a post above.)

Further more, planes can line up right behind the launching aircraft because the shields deflects the jet blasts upwards and away from operations behind the launching planes.

The Vikramaditya and the new Vikrant have only two takeoff stations, one long and one short. Even the short position is set way back into deck for both vessels!

The fighter the Indian Navy chose, the MiG-29K, evidently requires far more runway than the J-15. You can see that at least 50% of the length of the deck on both ships needs to be cleared for a launching MiG-29K! How can ops be possibly be anywhere near as efficient as the Chinese STOBARs when operating like this?

Sorry but the planning and choices made by this supposedly more experienced Indian carrier arm were horrible when compared to their Chinese counterparts.

And it all started with China choosing to go through hoops to get the Varyag despite having both the Kiev and Minsk (Vikramaditya's sister ships) at the time. And going the hard route in building the J-15 instead of funding and buying the MiG-29K which was actually offered to China (as a way to save MiG which had no orders) when Komsomolsk refused to reopen the SU-33 line (it had a backlog of hundreds of Flanker orders.)

 

[jai jaganath]

No need to be rude. Can't your argument speak for itself?

The S Koreans, in the top 3 of shipbuilders world wide, do not claim to produce 100% of their Lockheed Martin designed naval air defence systems. Your claim is false.

In 2017 and 2018 IAI inked deals to supply Bharat with 1.6 Billion USD and 770 Million USD worth of Barak 8 missiles defence systems. The prior deal was touted as the biggest for a single defence form in Israeli history.

Call it 50-50 JV or 100% tech tranfer all you want, but there are SIGNIFICANT CRITICAL components of all Barak 8 systems produced SOLELY in Israel.

Which speaks to the point that I am making. Indian Naval industry may build warships, but most of the critical supporting infrastructure -R&D, sub-system manufacturing is NOT IN INDIA.

The Israelis are good, well funded development partners to have in air defence. Their IADS is arguably the best in the world. MRSAM and LRSAM are not produced independently by India. There is a procurement and supply dependency on IAI in Israel to make any system in IN or IA service operational or maintainable where MF Star and Barak8/MRSAM/LRSAM are concerned.

No one can precisely predict the future, but sure... maybe the shipyards who have been chronically behind schedule from project initiation will somehow manage to comply to the rigorous timeschedule needed to keep maintain a yearly time at sea over 25%.

But we all know Cochin's track record on project schedule delivery so I doubt it. Why are you pretending otherwise?

Ridicule the PAC for assembling Chinese weaponry, but India does the same for most of what is touted here as JV or 100% local manufacture.

Vikrant is a once off class ship, with its subsystems first ordered between 2007 and 2018, almost a decade late from first project live-date and a huge part of its supply chain stretching from Kochi to Israel, to Europe, the US, Russia and beyond.

I can't do anything if sk isn't producing completely indigenous ships as their intent would be different
Coming ours we never claimed it's completely indigenous as u can see foreign systems what we say the amount of indigenous equipments is more as compared to what we thought during building Vikrant as no supplies were made and we needed time to develope it
Coming to barak-8/MRSAM/LRSAM it was developed as jv after barak-1 deal with both having equal share of works

Missile defence system to be test fired in August: DRDO chief

The indigenously developed ballistic missile defence system will be test fired in August this year, a top defence official said today.

m.economictimes.com

Barak-NG / Barak 8

GlobalSecurity.org is the leading source for reliable military news and military information, directed by John Pike

www.globalsecurity.org

From this article-

A robust area air defence Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) system remains an essential asset of any ‘blue water’ navy and to obtain suc7h a system, in February 2006 Israel and India signed a joint development agreement to create the new Barak-NG (now referred to as Barak-8) medium shipborne Surface-toAir Missile (SAM). This is an evolution of the eight-cell vertically launched 10-km ranged Barak-1 system in service with both navies. Prime contractor for the program is India’s Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), with Indian firms contributing the solid fuel smokeless dual-pulse rocket motors, associated safe and arm for rocket motor, and the pneumatic actuation system.​

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) missile & space group act as leading subcontractor with IAI Elta Systems providing the multi-function phased array radar and Rafael Advanced Defence System producing the critical components (including the seeker) of interceptor missiles. For the Indian Navy (IN) the layered defence capability to be provided by long range Barak-8 along with other point defence SAM and Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) represents a key asset especially in relation to proliferation of ballistic and cruise missiles in Asian continent.​

Now I don't think China had got all the tech by themselves they also went through jv and acquired many techs ​

So if its not retardness then what when u have a jv u have to contribute we are not a underdeveloped scientific temper nation like your dogs ​

Coming to MRSAM it's the most indigenous barak-8 version for army/air force and long with future and upcoming LRSAM for Navy​

Everything is simple to understand but u need to come out of Chinese superiority complex and hyper nationalism ​

Yeah ur hypernationalism makes u think we are comparable to Pakistan in terms of tech and scientific developments ​

We on ther hand develope many equipments in our home without jv also along with jv we have few equipments and even those are indigenized ​

Now before u cry about seekers in barak-8 jv its now being manufactured kalayani with Rafael and tasl participating in its seeker manufacturing​

This is done on terms of tech sharing where we provided the propulsion and firing equipments and they providing us seeker tech and even that's not a big problem as we have a large no of seeker developed in house after learning from Israeli and Russian techs ​

 

[J20!]

I can't do anything if sk isn't producing completely indigenous ships as their intent would be different
Coming ours we never claimed it's completely indigenous as u can see foreign systems what we say the amount of indigenous equipments is more as compared to what we thought during building Vikrant as no supplies were made and we needed time to develope it
Coming to barak-8/MRSAM/LRSAM it was developed as jv after barak-1 deal with both having equal share of works

Missile defence system to be test fired in August: DRDO chief

The indigenously developed ballistic missile defence system will be test fired in August this year, a top defence official said today.

m.economictimes.com

Barak-NG / Barak 8

GlobalSecurity.org is the leading source for reliable military news and military information, directed by John Pike

www.globalsecurity.org

From this article-

A robust area air defence Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) system remains an essential asset of any ‘blue water’ navy and to obtain suc7h a system, in February 2006 Israel and India signed a joint development agreement to create the new Barak-NG (now referred to as Barak-8) medium shipborne Surface-toAir Missile (SAM). This is an evolution of the eight-cell vertically launched 10-km ranged Barak-1 system in service with both navies. Prime contractor for the program is India’s Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), with Indian firms contributing the solid fuel smokeless dual-pulse rocket motors, associated safe and arm for rocket motor, and the pneumatic actuation system.​

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) missile & space group act as leading subcontractor with IAI Elta Systems providing the multi-function phased array radar and Rafael Advanced Defence System producing the critical components (including the seeker) of interceptor missiles. For the Indian Navy (IN) the layered defence capability to be provided by long range Barak-8 along with other point defence SAM and Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) represents a key asset especially in relation to proliferation of ballistic and cruise missiles in Asian continent.​

Now I don't think China had got all the tech by themselves they also went through jv and acquired many techs ​

So if its not retardness then what when u have a jv u have to contribute we are not a underdeveloped scientific temper nation like your dogs ​

Coming to MRSAM it's the most indigenous barak-8 version for army/air force and long with future and upcoming LRSAM for Navy​

Everything is simple to understand but u need to come out of Chinese superiority complex and hyper nationalism ​

Yeah ur hypernationalism makes u think we are comparable to Pakistan in terms of tech and scientific developments ​

We on ther hand develope many equipments in our home without jv also along with jv we have few equipments and even those are indigenized ​

Now before u cry about seekers in barak-8 jv its now being manufactured kalayani with Rafael and tasl participating in its seeker manufacturing​

This is done on terms of tech sharing where we provided the propulsion and firing equipments and they providing us seeker tech and even that's not a big problem as we have a large no of seeker developed in house after learning from Israeli and Russian techs ​

I didn't say China developed everything Independently. The HHQ10, Type 1130 CIWS, Main phased array are all MANUFACTURED independently.

You said MRSAM, Barak 8 and LRSAM are all manufactured in India since 2015. That is not true:

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-signs-contracts-india-worth-nearly-2-billion

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced today that the company has been awarded contracts in India totaling almost $2.0 billion. In a mega-contract worth over $1.6 billion, considered to be the largest defense contract in Israel's Defense Industries' history, IAI will provide an advanced MRSAM air & missile defense systems to the Indian Army

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-inks-50-million-worth-follow-agreement-india-complementary-mrsam-systems

"Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced it has entered this week agreement worth $50 million for provision of complementary Naval MRSAM (Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile) systems. The contracts were entered with the Indian Navy and MDL Shipyard. Under the contract, IAI will provide complementary systems for the air defense system (ADS). They involve follow up order for a range of maintenance and other services for various sub-systems of IAI’s advanced MSRAM ADS."

Israeli company to outfit Indian Navy, Army after $1.3 billion in defense deals

The deals are part of a growing relationship between Israel and India based on defense systems.

www.defensenews.com

"One deal will see IAI outfit the Indian Army with the Sky Capture air defense system, a contract worth $550 million. In addition, IAI will provide $777 million worth of Barak 8 missile defense systems, known as LRSAM in India, for seven ships."

DRDO is the main contractor for the procurement by IAF or IA or IN, but the subcontractor actually delivering the systems is IAI. Even maintenance contracts are still being signed.

If MRSAM and LRSAM are all being 100% manufactured in India since 2015, why can't DRDO even maintain them locally?

Simple, the main components of each system is still being manufactured in Israel. Ie long supply lines.

And read your article again buddy. Nowhere does it claim complete indegenisation of the air defence systems. DRDO may be prime contractor for the procurement by the Indian government, but IAI is still the main sub contractor. The tech and technical support still come from IAI. If not, why not just sign supply and maintenance contracts with DRDO?

You are being hysterical regarding the "indegenous" air defense on the ship but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

The air management complex on the Vikrant is RUSSIAN. Flight control, arrestor gear etc have supply lines stretching to Russia too. That's not a surprise as the whole air complement on the carrier is also reliant on Russian supply chains and maintenance. Mig 29k, Ka28, ka31...

Then Cochin, the masterminds behind the 13 year and going build time resulting in the commissioning of an incomplete ship. Now you believe they will be able to maintain all these foreign subsystems as they age on the ship on schedule? Naivety or wishful thinking?

You may want to pretend that "Vikrant is mostly indegenous" but that's far from true and I won't help you pretend. Be rude all you want, doesn't make you right.

 

[jai jaganath]

I didn't say China developed everything Independently. The HHQ10, Type 1130 CIWS, Main phased array are all MANUFACTURED independently.

You said MRSAM, Barak 8 and LRSAM are all manufactured in India since 2015. That is not true:

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-signs-contracts-india-worth-nearly-2-billion

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced today that the company has been awarded contracts in India totaling almost $2.0 billion. In a mega-contract worth over $1.6 billion, considered to be the largest defense contract in Israel's Defense Industries' history, IAI will provide an advanced MRSAM air & missile defense systems to the Indian Army

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-inks-50-million-worth-follow-agreement-india-complementary-mrsam-systems

"Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced it has entered this week agreement worth $50 million for provision of complementary Naval MRSAM (Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile) systems. The contracts were entered with the Indian Navy and MDL Shipyard. Under the contract, IAI will provide complementary systems for the air defense system (ADS). They involve follow up order for a range of maintenance and other services for various sub-systems of IAI’s advanced MSRAM ADS."

Israeli company to outfit Indian Navy, Army after $1.3 billion in defense deals

The deals are part of a growing relationship between Israel and India based on defense systems.

www.defensenews.com

"One deal will see IAI outfit the Indian Army with the Sky Capture air defense system, a contract worth $550 million. In addition, IAI will provide $777 million worth of Barak 8 missile defense systems, known as LRSAM in India, for seven ships."

DRDO is the main contractor for the procurement by IAF or IA or IN, but the subcontractor actually delivering the systems is IAI. Even maintenance contracts are still being signed.

If MRSAM and LRSAM are all being 100% manufactured in India since 2015, why can't DRDO even maintain them locally?

Simple, the main components of each system is still being manufactured in Israel. Ie long supply lines.

And read your article again buddy. Nowhere does it claim complete indegenisation of the air defence systems. DRDO may be prime contractor for the procurement by the Indian government, but IAI is still the main sub contractor. The tech and technical support still come from IAI. If not, why not just sign supply and maintenance contracts with DRDO?

You are being hysterical regarding the "indegenous" air defense on the ship but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

The air management complex on the Vikrant is RUSSIAN. Flight control, arrestor gear etc have supply lines stretching to Russia too. That's not a surprise as the whole air complement on the carrier is also reliant on Russian supply chains and maintenance. Mig 29k, Ka28, ka31...

Then Cochin, the masterminds behind the 13 year and going build time resulting in the commissioning of an incomplete ship. Now you believe they will be able to maintain all these foreign subsystems as they age on the ship on schedule? Naivety or wishful thinking?

You may want to pretend that "Vikrant is mostly indegenous" but that's far from true and I won't help you pretend. Be rude all you want, doesn't make you right.

See u can't open ur eyes as it has been covered by chinese superiority complex
Coming to ciws ak-630 is completely indigenous and independently manufactured
Again coming to phased array radar we have developed many powerful and advanced land based radar system and for sea based u can search lr-mfr which is in service with INS dhruv
Coming MRSAM as I told u its a jv between a two scientifically invested countries so workshare is compulsory and u have given the source of it
By going through ur logic then even they should be able to make it indigenously as 50% tech lies with us
But we both arremaking it independently
Coming to seeker part I have provided the source of indigenization
Again firstly China didn't develope everything by its own we are bit late as we started late but past 5-6 years we have achieved indigenization much faster than earlier years
Moreover it's sensors wiring other critical equipments under the deck and the compartments and equipment based on compartments hospital inside of it and many such things are indigenous

 

[jai jaganath]

I didn't say China developed everything Independently. The HHQ10, Type 1130 CIWS, Main phased array are all MANUFACTURED independently.

You said MRSAM, Barak 8 and LRSAM are all manufactured in India since 2015. That is not true:

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-signs-contracts-india-worth-nearly-2-billion

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced today that the company has been awarded contracts in India totaling almost $2.0 billion. In a mega-contract worth over $1.6 billion, considered to be the largest defense contract in Israel's Defense Industries' history, IAI will provide an advanced MRSAM air & missile defense systems to the Indian Army

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-inks-50-million-worth-follow-agreement-india-complementary-mrsam-systems

"Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced it has entered this week agreement worth $50 million for provision of complementary Naval MRSAM (Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile) systems. The contracts were entered with the Indian Navy and MDL Shipyard. Under the contract, IAI will provide complementary systems for the air defense system (ADS). They involve follow up order for a range of maintenance and other services for various sub-systems of IAI’s advanced MSRAM ADS."

Israeli company to outfit Indian Navy, Army after $1.3 billion in defense deals

The deals are part of a growing relationship between Israel and India based on defense systems.

www.defensenews.com

"One deal will see IAI outfit the Indian Army with the Sky Capture air defense system, a contract worth $550 million. In addition, IAI will provide $777 million worth of Barak 8 missile defense systems, known as LRSAM in India, for seven ships."

DRDO is the main contractor for the procurement by IAF or IA or IN, but the subcontractor actually delivering the systems is IAI. Even maintenance contracts are still being signed.

If MRSAM and LRSAM are all being 100% manufactured in India since 2015, why can't DRDO even maintain them locally?

Simple, the main components of each system is still being manufactured in Israel. Ie long supply lines.

And read your article again buddy. Nowhere does it claim complete indegenisation of the air defence systems. DRDO may be prime contractor for the procurement by the Indian government, but IAI is still the main sub contractor. The tech and technical support still come from IAI. If not, why not just sign supply and maintenance contracts with DRDO?

You are being hysterical regarding the "indegenous" air defense on the ship but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

The air management complex on the Vikrant is RUSSIAN. Flight control, arrestor gear etc have supply lines stretching to Russia too. That's not a surprise as the whole air complement on the carrier is also reliant on Russian supply chains and maintenance. Mig 29k, Ka28, ka31...

Then Cochin, the masterminds behind the 13 year and going build time resulting in the commissioning of an incomplete ship. Now you believe they will be able to maintain all these foreign subsystems as they age on the ship on schedule? Naivety or wishful thinking?

You may want to pretend that "Vikrant is mostly indegenous" but that's far from true and I won't help you pretend. Be rude all you want, doesn't make you right.

See if you eat to look into us then u have to leave yr Chinese pov bcoz when we started our AC development we were a very small economy and small industrial capabilities compared to Chinese when they started their AC development
So at that time it was decided that most of the components will be of foreign origin just think even steel required for Hull was to be imported from Russia
Similarly 1000s of systems and subsystems were ought be imported
Then during the delivery they didn't heed the timelines which caused cost overruns and timeline delay
So it was decided the so called mostly imported stuffs will be indigenized as industrial capabilities increased and supplies could be made by psu so the timeline further delayed
Our industrial capability has increased manifold times since 2006
Atleast having indigenous armaments, sams, bms, other millions equipments in a 42k ton carrier, having developed a naval lr-mfr which is in final stage of development and other thousands of equipments under development is an achievement for an economy of our size and industrial capability wrt to it
Coming to serviceability the lm-2500 was licensed bcoz in order to decrease the duration of its spares as it would ensure its availability further more
An AC has many equipments and having a total 70-72 % indigenous content is a achievement and imagine after removing propulsion how much imported components would be existed with comparisons to indigenous equipments

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Actually, whether built indigenously or not, a major SAM systems like Barak 8 really should have no place on a modern carrier. Those kinds of weapons are reserved for escorting cruisers and destroyers. That's the case with China. And that's the case with the US. If a carrier needs to track and fire long range SAMs then the fighters it carried are no longer doing one of their main jobs.

The canisters/cells of large SAMs take up unnecessary space on a carrier and the Vikrant and Vikramaditya are small to begin with. Chinese carriers are armed with point defense missiles like HHQ-10 and CIWS.

 

[J20!]

See u can't open ur eyes as it has been covered by chinese superiority complex
Coming to ciws ak-630 is completely indigenous and independently manufactured
Again coming to phased array radar we have developed many powerful and advanced land based radar system and for sea based u can search lr-mfr which is in service with INS dhruv
Coming MRSAM as I told u its a jv between a two scientifically invested countries so workshare is compulsory and u have given the source of it
By going through ur logic then even they should be able to make it indigenously as 50% tech lies with us
But we both arremaking it independently
Coming to seeker part I have provided the source of indigenization
Again firstly China didn't develope everything by its own we are bit late as we started late but past 5-6 years we have achieved indigenization much faster than earlier years
Moreover it's sensors wiring other critical equipments under the deck and the compartments and equipment based on compartments hospital inside of it and many such things are indigenous

I was demonstrating that even the systems you claim are 100% manufactured locally are clearly not. IAI still provides a bulk of the subsystems that support Barak8, MRSAM and LRSAM. Maintenance is still covered by IAI contracts....

Russia still produces and supplies most of the the flight management complex.

Even the SELEX sensor another member claimed was produced completely locally is supported by external supply chains.

It's ridiculous to claim Vikrant is mostly locally produced.

Yes, India has made strides towards Indegenisation, but the IN still DEPENDS on procurement from external suppliers for most of the ship's supply subsystems. Deny it all you want, but that doesn't change procurement facts on the ground

 

[jai jaganath]

I was demonstrating that even the systems you claim are 100% manufactured locally are clearly not. IAI still provides a bulk of the subsystems that support Barak8, MRSAM and LRSAM. Maintenance is still covered by IAI contracts....

Russia still produces and supplies most of the the flight management complex.

Even the SELEX sensor another member claimed was produced completely locally is supported by external supply chains.

It's ridiculous to claim Vikrant is mostly locally produced.

Yes, India has made strides towards Indegenisation, but the IN still DEPENDS on procurement from external suppliers for most of the ship's supply subsystems. Deny it all you want, but that doesn't change procurement facts on the ground

It's is mostly indegenous and locally produced
What's wrong in that fact
There is no dependency on MRSAM (Indian variant) we both shared our respective tech and producing it indegenously
Maintenance was the last issue as seeker was developed by them but now situation is different as it seeker is made in India and we have domestically manufactured many seekers for our own missile development program
Few things doesn't make u completely dependent on other countries when u have made 70-75% of content
Your hypernationalism and superiority complex won't change the fact on ground that we are not dependent on most of the supplies from foreign countries as the systems u said doesn't make AC it has many things which make it indigenous
It is as ridiculous as chinese producing copies of various foreign equipments by stealing ip and as your logic

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Very interesting picture posted here:

The MiG-29K is in full afterburners. The J-15 looks like it is taking off dry.

Seems consistent

compared to the MiG-29K:

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Another very interesting picture:

The J-15 on the left looks like it is taking off on the angled deck without the ramp!

Some say it is touch and go but that exercise is usually reserve for new trainees and the deck is left clear. This looks like regular ops with a standbye J-15 at one of the short take off positions.

It is definitely not landing, the plane is pitched up beyond the edge of the deck and no arresting cable which would be very prominent like this:

The significance of this is that the J-15 has enough power to takeoff with heavy or even full load if launched from the long takeoff position.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

According to Yefim Gordon's definitive Su-27 book:

The carrier Flanker could "easily" take off with fuel load from the short position! (Kutznetsov class is over 1000 feet in deck length.)
"The Su-27K could take off easily with a full fuel and weapons load, using even the shortest run of only 105m (345ft)"

This makes sense of the dry launches and the apparent launch without the ramp. The Su-33/J-15 had an abundance of thrust and needed a much shorter runway.

It so thoroughly out competed the MiG-29K that it was selected for the Russian Navy even before their tests were completed:
"In late 1989, even before the MiG-29K and Su-27K had completed their flight test programmes, the latter aircraft was selected for full-scale production at Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

The PLAN made the right choice on the Su-33 planform. And planned well