China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[SwordOfDarkness]

These aspirational statements have time and again prove bogus. "it will be better than any carrier currently in PLAN"... "with either rafale of FA18 from Vikrant"...

Vikrant is not operational.

Vikramaditya has been pierside for an extended period. No pilot qualifications, no deck crew qualiflification, no at sea training, no large scale exercises.

The Rafael M or F18E/F fiasco will be protracted over years as usual.

Batch 3 J15s are at sea now. At sea sorties are at all time highs. Naval pilot recruitment and trainning is at historically high levels. The PLAN is transitioning to an all Carrier based fighter force.

CV18 Fujian aside, just the recruitment, training and qualification exercise accelerating in the PLAN right now will only grow the gap. J35, J15D, J15B and KJ600 programmes are existing capability gaps that Indian Naval industry or notoriously political procurement can bridge in the short or long term.

"Vikrant is not operational"..... yet. If you expect a ship to go from dockyard straight to taiwan staits, thats a lack of understanding on your part.

"The Rafael M or F18E/F fiasco will be protracted over years as usual." Perhaps, perhaps not.... Speculation on your part, I would say. Unlikely that IN will run around with a stout carrier, but be lax about maintaining its airwing.

PLAN transitioning to completely a carrier centric force is just hogwash, it will be torturously expensive - I hope they try it out.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Actually, I think the MiG-29K just needs a longer runway. If look at the MiG-29K launch video I posted, it's titled "MiG-29K fighter jet pulls off extremely short takeoff"

So that indicates that using the short takeoff position is considered extraordinary.

Also, in the Indian carrier photo I posted above, the stand-by MiG-29K is on the "long" launch position but not the short:
View attachment 181477

If the MiG-29K needs a longer runway and needs the long position as standard then the blast shields doesn't make as much sense and Emperor Kalki is right

But overall, that makes ops on Chinese carriers much more efficient with shorter launch positions and much more space to work with.

Standby J-15s that are always on the "short" position (as well as sometimes on the long.)
View attachment 181490

Dude, why speculate when you can simply google for mig 29k takeoff from ins vikramaditya. You can see it taking off from the short take off position on afterburner and it starts right beside the elevator and not from the very end of the deck markings. And as I said, if you feel you don't need the deflectors, then all the better for a smaller deck. Less things to maintain and worry about. Its not Indian navy's first time operating any aircraft carriers. I believe they are very much aware how many aircrafts they need to carry and how many their carriers can.
And that's all I have to say on this.

 

[J20!]

"Vikrant is not operational"..... yet. If you expect a ship to go from dockyard straight to taiwan staits, thats a lack of understanding on your part.

"The Rafael M or F18E/F fiasco will be protracted over years as usual." Perhaps, perhaps not.... Speculation on your part, I would say. Unlikely that IN will run around with a stout carrier, but be lax about maintaining its airwing.

PLAN transitioning to completely a carrier centric force is just hogwash, it will be torturously expensive - I hope they try it out.

Vikrant is not operational nor fully equipped as yet. Her future airing is made up of 29Ks that have poor local or international supplier support considering the RusoUkrainian conflict.

Even when she is operational, Vikrant will not have the capacity of the existing PLAN Carriers CV 16 and 17. Availability fuel, deck space, deck configuration, available airwing, weapons storage capacity, serviceability, crew availability.... etc etc etc.

Vikrant was laid down in 2009 mate. Its been 13 years. Obsolescence in main and subsystems HAS to be an issue. In that period both Chinese carriers were operationalised and upgraded repeatedly at shipyard pierside or in dry dock. Maintenance and availability for both speak for themselves.

Vikrant wont be sailing rhe "taiwan strait" this decade.

Rafale M or F18F/E, the Vikrant will not receive either before the late 20s.

Aspirational statements from the IN or Indian media on capability delivery timelines are neither supported by historical evidence nor local naval shipbuilding technology or capacity.

Again. Let's not compare the two naval air arms. It's ridiculous at this point.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Well, this was a lazy CV-17 thread until soneone decided to make it a comparison thread and we were happy to investigate

And we found:

1) the J-15 has flown hundreds of sorties just in the past months alone

2) MiG-29K had not landed on a carrier in two years

3) J-15s fly and train in the face of opposing geopolitical rivals and create hundreds of scrambles from Japanese fighters and then engage in intercepting them; they overfly trailing American warships; they operate and launch sorties off the coast of Taiwan and Okinawa with its huge US bases; those are real world experience no Indian carrier plane can match (even if there were a carrier they could fly from but they don't and haven't for years)

4) Indian carriers, even the new Vikrant, are smaller and less amenable to rapid carrier ops with the short take off positions placed deep in the middle of the deck and worse those short take off positions in the middle of the deck have no blast deflectors to protect aircraft and personel behind a launching jet

5) the MiG-29K uses a very long runway so that even the short position is in the middle of the deck next to the island compared to the J-15 which can launch from a short position that is actually short and in front of the island leaving the rest of the deck to line up planes

6) There is no F-18 or Rafale on Indian carriers that we can find as of now

Everything shows a far more active Chinese carrier arm with better ships, better aircraft and far, far, far higher level of operation and training because frankly the Indian Navy had not done actual carrier ops in two years and counting.

Maybe we can talk again when the Rafale or F-18 is actually operating from Indian carriers.

But I think you might be disappointed then too. Those are CATOBAR aircraft and India is hoping they'll fit on their STOBARs. Let's see where the take off positions of these will be on carriers without a catapult

The MiG-29K is practically new but you are already looking at catapult aircraft like Rafale and F-18 that won't fit the mid-deck elevators of the Vikramaditya and probably not even those of Vikrant without modifying plane or carrier. This, to be honest, smacks of desperation and doing things under desperation is never optimal.

 

[KurtisBrian]

The STOBAR payload and range figures for the Su33/J15 (differences in both noted) vs Mig29K should be taken into account.

The Su33 in the 90s was credited with near full fuel load with an air to air configuration from the short takeoff positions on Kuznetsov. The Mig has much less Short takeoff and landing capability, even with uprated engines from the original.

Compare the carrier landing speed of both Aircraft. Differences in control and wing surface between the 2 really tell.

This very high trap landing speed with the Mig is probably why the avionics and electronics needed recalibration after each landing on Vikramaditya. Each video I've seen only grows the respect I have for IN carrier pilot bravery and skill.

I just assume Generals in each military know what they are doing. Indian generals face Pakistan. Over the ocean that means combat with few fighter jets but some ships. Better for Indian Navy to have longer reach at expense of numbers.

China PLAN faces USN, JSDF, Korea.... lots and lots of fighters. PLAN generals will want to get as many jets into the sky as they can.

Different scenarios. Different plans.

 

[jai jaganath]

I just assume Generals in each military know what they are doing. Indian generals face Pakistan. Over the ocean that means combat with few fighter jets but some ships. Better for Indian Navy to have longer reach at expense of numbers.

China PLAN faces USN, JSDF, Korea.... lots and lots of fighters. PLAN generals will want to get as many jets into the sky as they can.

Different scenarios. Different plans.

Yeah that's right our political bureaucratic and military circles were much more focused on Pakistan until recently they barely considered PLA as threat so most of our ideology is focused on Pakistan
Now we are considering China as a big threat and making moves
So basically late realization
Few years back our generals are thinking in such condition that they might even lose the existing edge against Pakistan but now I think they are feeling the danger and undoing their mistakes

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Vikrant was laid down in 2009 mate. Its been 13 years. Obsolescence in main and subsystems HAS to be an issue. In that period both Chinese carriers were operationalised and upgraded repeatedly at shipyard pierside or in dry dock. Maintenance and availability for both speak for themselves.

Last time I checked Vikrant will have MF-STAR, which is an AESA, SELEX RAN40 L-BAND radar also a modern system. It is pretty much using a modern turbine LM-2500+ which is a work horse for US Navy and also extremely reliable. Using a pretty much modern defensive systems like Barak-8, AK-630 and OTO - 76 mm Gun.

I did not see obsolescence in any of the systems nor any issues arise during its maiden Voyage. As for availability teach us how to compare the availability rate of a new carrier which just went on maiden Voyage with existing Chinese Navies one or newly launched one.

 

[jai jaganath]

Last time I checked Vikrant will have MF-STAR, which is an AESA, SELEX RAN40 L-BAND radar also a modern system. It is pretty much using a modern turbine LM-2500+ which is a work horse for US Navy and also extremely reliable. Using a pretty much modern defensive systems like Barak-8, AK-630 and OTO - 76 mm Gun.

I did not see obsolescence in any of the systems nor any issues arise during its maiden Voyage. As for availability teach us how to compare the availability rate of a new carrier which just went on maiden Voyage with existing Chinese Navies one or newly launched one.

Yeah even it's bms which supplied by Tata if I am not wrong is not obsolete along with its latest indigenous ew suite(again if I am not wrong)

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Yeah even it's bms which supplied by Tata if I am not wrong is not obsolete along with its latest indigenous ew suite(again if I am not wrong)

Nothing is obsolete in terms of Weapons package on Indian Navy Warships which are built on last decade (2010 - Current). Unless DEW weapons started to prop suddenly then only these things may be obsolete. I don't know why he compared it a weird way. Maybe, He tried to compare the Vikramadithya even that has pretty modern defensive system like Barak-8. I could not be able to pinpoint the manufacturer of Radars used on that ship. If it is able to work with Barak-8, then it will be AESA based system since Barak-8 needs latest radars to operate which is reflected in versions we are using. The only issue with this carrier is maintenance intensive due to old school propulsion system used. Again, professional navies will maintain them as long it is viable.

As per Indian Generals thinking concerned, we already have the long discussion on Two - Front concept for decades now. Both IA and IAF numbers will always be geared towards to Two front situation. Our stockpile will be calculated for Two front only not on how many days' worth resource we have to fight Pakistan. Our Two - Front is basically Pakistan (armed by US now China) and PLA and PLAAF.

PLAN expansion in last 15 years is a new addition regarding the Two front with Indian Navy also need to expand its capability. That is also reflecting on its desire to have a much bigger carrier.


The question of purchasing necessary equipment to deal with Two front adversary should be done on relevant thread.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Last time I checked Vikrant will have MF-STAR, which is an AESA, SELEX RAN40 L-BAND radar also a modern system. It is pretty much using a modern turbine LM-2500+ which is a work horse for US Navy and also extremely reliable. Using a pretty much modern defensive systems like Barak-8, AK-630 and OTO - 76 mm Gun.

I did not see obsolescence in any of the systems nor any issues arise during its maiden Voyage. As for availability teach us how to compare the availability rate of a new carrier which just went on maiden Voyage with existing Chinese Navies one or newly launched one.

Everything sounds imported which tells us a little bit about future availability

I agree that we should not be comparing the two carrier arms since one has no operational carrier for the past two years and counting.

That brings up the availability issue again. If a navy with decades of experience can end up with no operational carriers for two years running then how much is that experience worth and why would the new Vikrant carrier be any different in a carrier arm that can go MIA for years?

Anyways, there is an operational Chinese carrier at sea with J-15s right now as we speak

 

[jai jaganath]

Everything sounds imported which tells us a little bit about future availability

I agree that we should not be comparing the two carrier arms since one has no operational carrier for the past two years and counting.

That brings up the availability issue again. If a navy with decades of experience can end up with no operational carriers for two years running then how much is that experience worth and why would the new Vikrant carrier be any different in a carrier arm that can go MIA for years?

Anyways, there is an operational Chinese carrier at sea with J-15s right now as we speak

Mf-star and selex is imported
Bcoz when we planned this we didn't had any radar ecosystem right now
More over mf-star is mainly made in India with Israeli assistance and jv and few Israeli supplies
Even radar modules are made here so technically the % of import is decreased
And our radar ecosystem is improving constantly and even mf-star is being indigenised constantly
Coming to barak-8(lrsam) ak-630 oto-76 are completely indigenous
Coming to engine yeah it's not Indian but recently it's spares are being made in India due to recent deal signed with USA
Even those spares made here will be used by other countries too
Our delay in Vikrant is due to funding jump from import oriented mentality to indigenization along with conspiracy of other countries to delay the program by delaying the delivery of dependent equipments which latter had to be made indigenously

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Mf-star and selex is imported
Bcoz when we planned this we didn't had any radar ecosystem right now
More over mf-star is mainly made in India with Israeli assistance and jv and few Israeli supplies
Even radar modules are made here so technically the % of import is decreased
And our radar ecosystem is improving constantly and even mf-star is being indigenised constantly
Coming to barak-8(lrsam) ak-630 oto-76 are completely indigenous
Coming to engine yeah it's not Indian but recently it's spares are being made in India due to recent deal signed with USA
Even those spares made here will be used by other countries too
Our delay in Vikrant is due to funding jump from import oriented mentality to indigenization along with conspiracy of other countries to delay the program by delaying the delivery of dependent equipments which latter had to be made indigenously

The problem, it seems, is not the equipment but the Indian carrier arm itself?

It seems it is either poor planning or poor maintenance ability to leave the country without an operational carrier for two years no? Since I doubt any naval air arm would plan to leave itself without a carrier for two years, then it is probably the latter?

As such, a new carrier like Vikrant wouldn't necessarily mean it would be more available since the Vikramaditya itself is practically new to Indian service as it was commissioned in only 2014 --- even later than the Liaoning which entered service in 2012.

The Liaoning has over 70 operational cruises since its induction. These are tracked by the Taiwanese defense ministry:

邱國正：共軍航艦遼寧號已70次航訓10次遠航 | 政治 | 中央社 CNA

共軍航空母艦戰鬥群2日航經西太平洋，國防部長邱國正今天表示，國軍這幾年都有調查，例如航艦遼寧號迄今已第70次航訓、第10次遠航，國防部都有完全掌握。

www.cna.com.tw

I can't find much on the number of Vikramaditya tours but it seems very inactive (nearly no satellite photos of it at sea) in comparison even before it went missing in action these past two years.

Both Liaoning and Vikramaditya are former USSR vessels so it is pretty appropriate to compare the two. What we find here is the Chinese carrier arm is far better at maintaining ships and operations even though it is a newer service. In fact not just bit better but many many times better if we look at the number of operational cruises and sorties.

 

[jai jaganath]

The problem, it seems, is not the equipment but the Indian carrier arm itself?

It seems it is either poor planning or poor maintenance ability to leave the country without an operational carrier for two years no? Since I doubt any naval air arm would plan to leave itself without a carrier for two years, then it is probably the latter?

As such, a new carrier like Vikrant wouldn't necessarily mean it would be more available since the Vikramaditya itself is practically new to Indian service as it was commissioned in only 2014 --- even later than the Liaoning which entered service in 2012.

The Liaoning has over 70 operational cruises since its induction. These are tracked by the Taiwanese defense ministry:

邱國正：共軍航艦遼寧號已70次航訓10次遠航 | 政治 | 中央社 CNA

共軍航空母艦戰鬥群2日航經西太平洋，國防部長邱國正今天表示，國軍這幾年都有調查，例如航艦遼寧號迄今已第70次航訓、第10次遠航，國防部都有完全掌握。

www.cna.com.tw

I can't find much on the number of Vikramaditya tours but it seems very inactive (nearly no satellite photos of it at sea) in comparison even before it went missing in action these past two years.

Both Liaoning and Vikramaditya are former USSR vessels so it is pretty appropriate to compare the two. What we find here is the Chinese carrier arm is far better at maintaining ships and operations even though it is a newer service. In fact not just bit better but many many times better if we look at the number of operational cruises and sorties.

It was planned to go inn refit for year but things became bad as a fire incident took place due to which 7-8 months delayed
I don't think IN is responsible for it
And I don't understand the fault of IN that if they have 1 carrier
If there is no report from Pakistan or Myanmar or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka then what could we do
That doesn't mean it hasn't been operational before 2 years

 

[jai jaganath]

The problem, it seems, is not the equipment but the Indian carrier arm itself?

It seems it is either poor planning or poor maintenance ability to leave the country without an operational carrier for two years no? Since I doubt any naval air arm would plan to leave itself without a carrier for two years, then it is probably the latter?

As such, a new carrier like Vikrant wouldn't necessarily mean it would be more available since the Vikramaditya itself is practically new to Indian service as it was commissioned in only 2014 --- even later than the Liaoning which entered service in 2012.

The Liaoning has over 70 operational cruises since its induction. These are tracked by the Taiwanese defense ministry:

邱國正：共軍航艦遼寧號已70次航訓10次遠航 | 政治 | 中央社 CNA

共軍航空母艦戰鬥群2日航經西太平洋，國防部長邱國正今天表示，國軍這幾年都有調查，例如航艦遼寧號迄今已第70次航訓、第10次遠航，國防部都有完全掌握。

www.cna.com.tw

I can't find much on the number of Vikramaditya tours but it seems very inactive (nearly no satellite photos of it at sea) in comparison even before it went missing in action these past two years.

Both Liaoning and Vikramaditya are former USSR vessels so it is pretty appropriate to compare the two. What we find here is the Chinese carrier arm is far better at maintaining ships and operations even though it is a newer service. In fact not just bit better but many many times better if we look at the number of operational cruises and sorties.

Want are u changing the topic too
It was about foreign equipments right

 

[DumbPilot]

Both Liaoning and Vikramaditya are former USSR vessels so it is pretty appropriate to compare the two. What we find here is the Chinese carrier arm is far better at maintaining ships and operations even though it is a newer service. In fact not just bit better but many many times better if we look at the number of operational cruises and sorties.

It's not apt to compare those two.. Liaoning was built as a Kuznetsov class STOBAR carrier, that the CCP bought through fake receipts and scams, to convert it into a floating hotel. Vikramaditya was built as a Kiev-class cruiser-STOVL carrier meant to bypass the 1936 Montreux Convention.

This means that Liaoning did not have to go under massive structural changes unlike Vikramaditya to make it into a STOBAR capable carrier, and it inherently means that Vikramaditya has to go to servicing due to additional deck stress during landings.

Your message sounds good only in circle-jerking forums.

The INS Vikrant does not have any such problems. And I guarantee that you will be reconsidering your words in the years to come. Indian shipmaking is a beast that I believe has not fully awakened yet..

Regarding the operational capability of PLAN pilots.. I know a US Navy aviator to have talked with him somewhat. It is my sincere belief that American pilots will cream the Chinese ones any day. For India, I think you are no match to the experience of our naval aviators.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Want are u changing the topic too
It was about foreign equipments right

Aren't they connected? The Indian Navy has very bad maintenance record by the looks of things -- two years is a very long time to be without a carrier if you are an experienced service -- and the big reason, I think, is the large amount of foreign equipment.

It is hard to plan when you are dependent on foreign sources. The Indian Navy had a second carrier Vikrant that was first launched in 2011. The Vikramaditya was commissioned in 2014. That should have been a lot of time to plan for the availability of at least one carrier on service.

An experienced service should have been ae to refit the Vikramaditya after the Vikrant is able to receive and launch aircraft and not leave a two year gap where there is no operations. It should have been able to maintain the Vikramaditya in service until the Vikrant is ready no?

 

[jai jaganath]

Aren't they connected? The Indian Navy has very bad maintenance record by the looks of things -- two years is a very long time to be without a carrier if you are an experienced service -- and the big reason, I think, is the large amount of foreign equipment.

It is hard to plan when you are dependent on foreign sources. The Indian Navy had a second carrier Vikrant that was first launched in 2011. The Vikramaditya was commissioned in 2014. That should have been a lot of time to plan for the availability of at least one carrier on service.

An experienced service should have been ae to refit the Vikramaditya after the Vikrant is able to receive and launch aircraft and not leave a two year gap where there is no operations. It should have been able to maintain the Vikramaditya in service until the Vikrant is ready no?

Planning was of 1 year buddy 7-8 months extra due to fire accident
Now I don't how plan will control such disaster if it happens like in your lhd
It happens bad luck
Coming to bit late refit point that cover under 1 year plan

 

[jai jaganath]

Aren't they connected? The Indian Navy has very bad maintenance record by the looks of things -- two years is a very long time to be without a carrier if you are an experienced service -- and the big reason, I think, is the large amount of foreign equipment.

It is hard to plan when you are dependent on foreign sources. The Indian Navy had a second carrier Vikrant that was first launched in 2011. The Vikramaditya was commissioned in 2014. That should have been a lot of time to plan for the availability of at least one carrier on service.

An experienced service should have been ae to refit the Vikramaditya after the Vikrant is able to receive and launch aircraft and not leave a two year gap where there is no operations. It should have been able to maintain the Vikramaditya in service until the Vikrant is ready no?

Nope it not connected you were talking about foreign components of Vikrant then jumped to Vikramaditya
No issues u guys have habit of changing goal posts

 

[SexyChineseLady]

It's not apt to compare those two.. Liaoning was built as a Kuznetsov class STOBAR carrier, that the CCP bought through fake receipts and scams, to convert it into a floating hotel. Vikramaditya was built as a Kiev-class cruiser-STOVL carrier meant to bypass the 1936 Montreux Convention.

This means that Liaoning did not have to go under massive structural changes unlike Vikramaditya to make it into a STOBAR capable carrier, and it inherently means that Vikramaditya has to go to servicing due to additional deck stress during landings.

Your message sounds good only in circle-jerking forums.

The INS Vikrant does not have any such problems. And I guarantee that you will be reconsidering your words in the years to come. Indian shipmaking is a beast that I believe has not fully awakened yet..

Regarding the operational capability of PLAN pilots.. I know a US Navy aviator to have talked with him somewhat. It is my sincere belief that American pilots will cream the Chinese ones any day. For India, I think you are no match to the experience of our naval aviators.

When China got the Varyag from Ukraine, it looked like this:

When India got the Vikramaditya from Russia, it looked like this:

Yet, the Liaoning had operated on a schedule and cadence that is many times that of the Vikramaditya

We will see about Vikrant but it was launched in 2011 and was commisioned only this year, right? So Vikrant already has very serious issues after launch otherwise why would it take 11 years to commision and STILL not able accept launch and recover aircraft?

So why would the future be all that different for Vikrant? How does just saying Vikrant is in service change anything?

Shandong was launched in 2017 and commisioned in 2019.

Launched in 2011 (still cannot launch aircraft):

Launched in 2017

The part about you talking to an US carrier pilot is a very silly reply. Anyone can say they talk to anyone on the internet. lol

On the experience of Indian pilots versus Chinese, you do not even have a carrier to fly off of right now! And haven't for two years. I can't see how much your previous experience had help you. It certainly didn't help you maintain a working carrier arm

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Planning was of 1 year buddy 7-8 months extra due to fire accident
Now I don't how plan will control such disaster if it happens like in your lhd
It happens bad luck
Coming to bit late refit point that cover under 1 year plan

Yes bad luck happens, I agree.

China's first 075 LHD had a fire on April 2020 during fitting out!

But it was commissioned in April of 2021:

Today

I think the reason why maintenance with China's Navy seems to be far more efficient and its scheduling far better planned is the fact that every part in Chinese vessels is made in China.

So I agree that the Indian Navy's maintenance team is under different and heavier pressure. But that does not absolve the Indian Navy's staff of bad planning in using foreign systems and not taking that into account in their scheduling.

Vikrant already is delayed many years after launch and I can imagine it is because of foreign systems. I don't think that will change after commissioning.