China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

But first tell me which type of aircraft the Indian carrier has chosen?

Whichever aircraft India fields is going to be superior to anything China has. Multinational development of aerospace systems is always far superior to single nation development like what the CCP is doing. Most likely the aircraft will be a mix of Rafale naval and Boeing F/A 18s. These aircraft are heavily interoperable with western navies. Indian Navy has set goals that its systems will be highly interoperable with western navies. So, it will be india specific modification of western planes - aka making these planes modular to not be locked into specific supply chains. Of course the usual offset for localized investments will further enhance Indian industry.

 

[ym888]

Most likely the aircraft will be a mix of Rafale naval and Boeing F/A 18s.

It is difficult to understand

Hybrids?

 

[SexyChineseLady]

It is difficult to understand

Hybrids?

I have no idea what he said either!

Right now, the only aircraft for Indian carriers is the MiG-29K. It is very Russian and is built in Russia.

So from this news, no MiG-29K had even landed on a Indian carriers in two years:

Indian Navy pilots haven’t landed on an aircraft carrier in 2 yrs & won’t anytime soon. Here's why

A selection of the best news reports, analysis and opinions published by ThePrint this week.

theprint.in

But the J-15 had flown day and night in hundreds of sorties off Liaoning and Shandong just in the past few months!

Chinese Aircraft Carrier Deployment Prompted Record Japanese Fighter Scrambles - USNI News

In a six-month period from April to September, Japanese fighters scrambled 446 times to intercept threatening aircraft from China and Russia, according to the Japanese Ministry of Defense. Many of the aircraft intercepted belonged to the air wing embarked on the People’s Liberation Army Navy...

news.usni.org

Chinese Carrier-Based Aircraft Seen Flying off Okinawa

Tokyo, May 5 (Jiji Press)--Japan's Defense Ministry said Wednesday that warplanes based on the Chinese navy ai…

www.nippon.com

J-15 on the Shandong in South China Sea in September:

There is a Chinese carrier with J-15s at sea right now!



I don't think it is very hard to figure out who has the better aircraft and ships at this moment

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Yes. Currently because of a unique overlap of maintenance and introduction of new carriers, pilots don’t get to takeoff and land on actual carriers. But as the airforce expert says, India has the STBF and adapting to the carrier take off and landing would only take 7 to 10 days maximum. India’s carrier operations are not going to be full fledged until end of 2023. But there is no threat as such in the Indian Ocean. And as SSBNs come online and with nuke capable, Brahmos armed SU30MKIs flying out of India’s permanent carrier, no one is going to bother Indian Navy for a while.
On the aircraft, it will most likely be Rafale Naval fighters. As French are India’s strategic allies but the Americans aren’t. Boeing has excellent relations with Indian companies but India won’t trust the US for frontline fighters, not yet. Plus, the relations between the US and Indian governments (not companies or armed forces) are once again on a downhill thanks to the US‘ inability to appoint an ambassador to India for almost a year now and India’s not so full cooperation with the west on the Ukraine war demands.
‘I think the best India would do is sign a big deal with the US for GE414 engines to be fit on TEDBF and Naval LCAs. India is not going to procure off the shelf fighters from the US, unless there is a tit for tat deal.

 

[J20!]

Yes. Currently because of a unique overlap of maintenance and introduction of new carriers, pilots don’t get to takeoff and land on actual carriers. But as the airforce expert says, India has the STBF and adapting to the carrier take off and landing would only take 7 to 10 days maximum. India’s carrier operations are not going to be full fledged until end of 2023. But there is no threat as such in the Indian Ocean. And as SSBNs come online and with nuke capable, Brahmos armed SU30MKIs flying out of India’s permanent carrier, no one is going to bother Indian Navy for a while.
On the aircraft, it will most likely be Rafale Naval fighters. As French are India’s strategic allies but the Americans aren’t. Boeing has excellent relations with Indian companies but India won’t trust the US for frontline fighters, not yet. Plus, the relations between the US and Indian governments (not companies or armed forces) are once again on a downhill thanks to the US‘ inability to appoint an ambassador to India for almost a year now and India’s not so full cooperation with the west on the Ukraine war demands.
‘I think the best India would do is sign a big deal with the US for GE414 engines to be fit on TEDBF and Naval LCAs. India is not going to procure off the shelf fighters from the US, unless there is a tit for tat deal.

I think it's pointless to turn this thread into a comparison debate between the PLAN and IN aircraft carrier operations...

It's obvious to anyone actually tracking both that there is a huge gap in operational tempo and ascociated capabilities.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

I think it's pointless to turn this thread into a comparison debate between the PLAN and IN aircraft carrier operations...

It's obvious to anyone actually tracking both that there is a huge gap in operational tempo and ascociated capabilities.

India has had 50+ years of carrier ops. A small break is not something to crib about. I am sure by end of 2023 the Navy will be back in its carrier ops. Right now the focus is on getting the K4 and K6 fully tested and launched on the SSBNs. The focus for IN is different right now.

 

[J20!]

India has had 50+ years of carrier ops. A small break is not something to crib about. I am sure by end of 2023 the Navy will be back in its carrier ops. Right now the focus is on getting the K4 and K6 fully tested and launched on the SSBNs. The focus for IN is different right now.

It doesn't work that way.

The IN had an old centaur class AC in the 60's that was later converted into a Harrier Carrier.

Harrier operations ARE VERY DIFFERENT from even STOBAR operations. Even so, those old technicians and pilots retired DECADES ago. How does that translate into experience in 2022 with an Aircraft carrier that by all accounts is not operationally ready enough to even do Carrier pilot qualification cruises? Carrier experience is not hereditary.

Even in the decade before Viraat was decommissioned, she was not at sea regularly.

Do you know how many traps and launches a carrier pilot needs to do a year to stay qualified? Has Vikramaditya even left port side this year?

How many carrier qualified pilots does the IN even have at the moment? IN carrier operational readiness is at Russian Navy levels at the moment.

The PLANs carrier ops are a whole different animal. That's why I'm of the opinion that comparisons between the 2 are moot at this point.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Not only do the J-15s fly a LOT (when consider that between the two carriers they are on about 14 cruises a year), they also encounter real world opponents practically every time they are out. And this goes on day and night for 24 hours because the J-15s and their carriers operate in the face of geopolitical foes.

J-15 operations actually create scrambles by Japanese and Taiwanese aircraft and they turn into real world intercepts. I don't think this kind of hands-on training with real world foes would happen with MiG-29K pilots -- even if they had carriers to fly off of (and they haven't for years.)

Cadence, tempo and pure volume of sail and flight time favor the J-15 and Chinese carrier arm by a very wide margin.

And then you put up their real world operational experience against live foes and there really is no comparison:

 

[jai jaganath]

It doesn't work that way.

The IN had an old centaur class AC in the 60's that was later converted into a Harrier Carrier.

Harrier operations ARE VERY DIFFERENT from even STOBAR operations. Even so, those old technicians and pilots retired DECADES ago. How does that translate into experience in 2022 with an Aircraft carrier that by all accounts is not operationally ready enough to even do Carrier pilot qualification cruises? Carrier experience is not hereditary.

Even in the decade before Viraat was decommissioned, she was not at sea regularly.

Do you know how many traps and launches a carrier pilot needs to do a year to stay qualified? Has Vikramaditya even left port side this year?

How many carrier qualified pilots does the IN even have at the moment? IN carrier operational readiness is at Russian Navy levels at the moment.

The PLANs carrier ops are a whole different animal. That's why I'm of the opinion that comparisons between the 2 are moot at this point.

Yeah
Right now plan pilots and AC ops are far ahead in terms of training tactics and experience
I agree to that point
Most importantly plan didn't possessed and AC until 2000s generally but right now they have came a long way in very short time that too without any western help
Right now plan carrier ops are atleast reached to European standards if not American but surely far ahead of us

 

[SexyChineseLady]

I think one of the big differences between the Chinese and Indian carriers is the presence of blast shields. I am surprised that even the new Indian carrier Vikrant does not have them:

Without them, you cannot use your deck to full potential because you need a lot of space left clear behind a launching jet for safety from the jet blast.

On the Liaoning and Shandong, they can place up to 24 J-15s on deck to launch large strike or CAP packages. The planes are conveyed to the two launch points which have blast shields to protect the planes lining up behind them:

Without the shields, it would be impossible.

A max launch configuration would have 24 fighters lined up:

A more relaxed posture can still have 15 (this allows use of the 3rd launch point for higher take-off weight -- see left line):

Without blast shields, I don't think the Vikramaditya or Vikrant would be able to place that many planes on deck for safety reasons -- even though the J-15 is a much larger plane than the MiG-29K.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

I think one of the big differences between the Chinese and Indian carriers is the presence of blast shields. I am surprised that even the new Indian carrier Vikrant does not have them:
View attachment 181416
View attachment 181417
View attachment 181418

Without them, you cannot use your deck to full potential because you need a lot of space left clear behind a launching jet for safety from the jet blast.

On the Liaoning and Shandong, they can place up to 24 J-15s on deck to launch large strike or CAP packages. The planes are conveyed to the two launch points which have blast shields to protect the planes lining up behind them:
View attachment 181419

Without the shields, it would be impossible.

A max launch configuration would have 24 fighters lined up:
View attachment 181422

A more relaxed posture can still have 15 (this allows use of the 3rd launch point for higher take-off weight -- see left line):
View attachment 181423

Without blast shields, I don't think the Vikramaditya or Vikrant would be able to place that many planes on deck for safety reasons -- even though the J-15 is a much larger plane than the MiG-29K.

That's because the take off positions are entirely different on the chinese carriers and Indian ones.
Have you seen the long and short takeoff positions on vikki. The short take off position has an aircraft elevator(the one beside the island) right where it starts and behind the longer one is, well, the ocean. And INS vikrant has both takeoff positions near the deck's edge too. But will have to see aircraft operations start from it to get a complete sense of how they manage the deck. After all a blast deflector is not some overly complex or unavailable technology. If you are going for a smaller carrier and can design it without needing such additions to your deck, then all the better in my opinion. Less things to maintain on the deck.

 

[KurtisBrian]

That's because the take off positions are entirely different on the chinese carriers and Indian ones.
Have you seen the long and short takeoff positions on vikki. The short take off position has an aircraft elevator(the one beside the island) right where it starts and behind the longer one is, well, the ocean. And INS vikrant has both takeoff positions near the deck's edge too. But will have to see aircraft operations start from it to get a complete sense of how they manage the deck. After all a blast deflector is not some overly complex or unavailable technology. If you are going for a smaller carrier and can design it without needing such additions to your deck, then all the better in my opinion. Less things to maintain on the deck.

So the Indian navy has chosen a longer runway to maximize payload/range while the PLAN has chosen a short runway to maximize launch times?

 

[SexyChineseLady]

That's because the take off positions are entirely different on the chinese carriers and Indian ones.
Have you seen the long and short takeoff positions on vikki. The short take off position has an aircraft elevator(the one beside the island) right where it starts and behind the longer one is, well, the ocean. And INS vikrant has both takeoff positions near the deck's edge too. But will have to see aircraft operations start from it to get a complete sense of how they manage the deck. After all a blast deflector is not some overly complex or unavailable technology. If you are going for a smaller carrier and can design it without needing such additions to your deck, then all the better in my opinion. Less things to maintain on the deck.

Actually, relative to the size of the carriers, blast shields would be even more advantageous for the Indian carriers. You already have less space to work with. The blast deflectors give you back space during launch.

If you look at the "short" takeoff positions between the MiG-29K and J-15, you'll see that the J-15 launch in the front of the island while the MiG launch amidst ship next to the island -- Shandong/Liaoning have a lot more flexibility and room for deck ops even though they carry larger planes:

In front of the island:

Next to middle of the island:

Short takeoff positions on Liaoning/Shandong vs Vikramaditya and Vikrant:

I don't know if the Indian carriers are simply smaller or the MiG-29K needs a lot more runway to take off but the "short" take off positions start in the middle of the ship for them and blast shield would definitely help to allow ops to be conducted in the area behind the launch.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

So the Indian navy has chosen a longer runway to maximize payload/range while the PLAN has chosen a short runway to maximize launch times?

Not sure. It could be the MiG-29K just needs to use a lot more runway to take off.

The "short" and "long" launch positions are marked off in all carriers. You can see there is a "long" takeoff position on Chinese carriers too and that starts amidst ship as well.

But the "short" takeoff positions are the most different between the carriers. The Chinese one is way in front which allows planes to line up behind for faster and more launches.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Actually, I think the MiG-29K just needs a longer runway. If look at the MiG-29K launch video I posted, it's titled "MiG-29K fighter jet pulls off extremely short takeoff"

So that indicates that using the short takeoff position is considered extraordinary.

Also, in the Indian carrier photo I posted above, the stand-by MiG-29K is on the "long" launch position but not the short:

If the MiG-29K needs a longer runway and needs the long position as standard then the blast shields doesn't make as much sense and Emperor Kalki is right

But overall, that makes ops on Chinese carriers much more efficient with shorter launch positions and much more space to work with.

Standby J-15s that are always on the "short" position (as well as sometimes on the long.)

 

[J20!]

So the Indian navy has chosen a longer runway to maximize payload/range while the PLAN has chosen a short runway to maximize launch times?

The STOBAR payload and range figures for the Su33/J15 (differences in both noted) vs Mig29K should be taken into account.

The Su33 in the 90s was credited with near full fuel load with an air to air configuration from the short takeoff positions on Kuznetsov. The Mig has much less Short takeoff and landing capability, even with uprated engines from the original.

Compare the carrier landing speed of both Aircraft. Differences in control and wing surface between the 2 really tell.

This very high trap landing speed with the Mig is probably why the avionics and electronics needed recalibration after each landing on Vikramaditya. Each video I've seen only grows the respect I have for IN carrier pilot bravery and skill.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Im having a fun time, with the chinese posters here trying to do "military analysis" on the basis of CHinese propaganda outlets

 

[J20!]

Im having a fun time, with the chinese posters here trying to do "military analysis" on the basis of CHinese propaganda outlets

The Japan Maritime Self Defence Force... Nikkei... famous Chinese propaganda outlets

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/In...stages-100-plus-takeoffs-near-Okinawa-islands

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

The Japan Maritime Self Defence Force... Nikkei... famous Chinese propaganda outlets

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/In...stages-100-plus-takeoffs-near-Okinawa-islands

..... half the stuff here is from outlets like CGTN

Whether you like it or not, with either rafale of FA18 from Vikrant, it will be better than any carrier currently in PLAN. Perhaps the future CATOBAR one may be a match for it, but given the deficiencies in the current fleet of J 15s they wont hold up well in a fight.

 

[J20!]

..... half the stuff here is from outlets like CGTN

Whether you like it or not, with either rafale of FA18 from Vikrant, it will be better than any carrier currently in PLAN. Perhaps the future CATOBAR one may be a match for it, but given the deficiencies in the current fleet of J 15s they wont hold up well in a fight.

These aspirational statements have time and again proven bogus. "it will be better than any carrier currently in PLAN"... "with either rafale of FA18 from Vikrant"...

Vikrant is not operational.

Vikramaditya has been pierside for an extended period. No pilot qualifications, no deck crew qualiflification, no at sea training, no large scale exercises.

The Rafale M or F18E/F fiasco will be protracted over years as usual.

Batch 3 J15s are at sea now. At sea sorties are at all time highs. Naval pilot recruitment and trainning is at historically high levels. The PLAN is transitioning to an all Carrier based fighter force.

CV18 Fujian aside, just the recruitment, training and qualification exercise accelerating in the PLAN right now will only grow the gap. J35, J15D, J15B and KJ600 programmes are existing capability gaps that Indian Naval industry or notoriously political procurement can bridge in the short or long term.