China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[jai jaganath]

Yes bad luck happens, I agree.

China's first 075 LHD had a fire on April 2020 during fitting out!
View attachment 181734

But it was commissioned in April of 2021:
View attachment 181735

Today
View attachment 181737

I think the reason why maintenance with China's Navy seems to be far more efficient and its scheduling far better planned is the fact that every part in Chinese vessels is made in China.

So I agree that the Indian Navy's maintenance team is under different and heavier pressure. But that does not absolve the Indian Navy's staff of bad planning in using foreign systems and not taking that into account in their scheduling.

Vikrant already is delayed many years after launch and I can imagine it is because of foreign systems. I don't think that will change after commissioning.

Delay after launching was bcoz of delays in supplies of subsystems and subsequently we had to make it in house that's the reason why it got delayed
Our shipbuilding industry is at very younger stage as we never built a ship of that size
It's the episode of csl not IN
It's not problems that caused delays it was solution
Now we are matured enough to build a ship of that size with indigenous content

 

[jai jaganath]

When China got the Varyag from Ukraine, it looked like this:
View attachment 181728

When India got the Vikramaditya from Russia, it looked like this:
View attachment 181729

Yet, the Liaoning had operated on a schedule and cadence that is many times that of the Vikramaditya

We will see about Vikrant but it was launched in 2011 and was commisioned only this year, right? So Vikrant already has very serious issues after launch otherwise why would it take 11 years to commision and STILL not able accept launch and recover aircraft?

So why would the future be all that different for Vikrant? How does just saying Vikrant is in service change anything?

Shandong was launched in 2017 and commisioned in 2019.

Launched in 2011 (still cannot launch aircraft):
View attachment 181732

Launched in 2017
View attachment 181733

The part about you talking to an US carrier pilot is a very silly reply. Anyone can say they talk to anyone on the internet. lol

On the experience of Indian pilots versus Chinese, you do not even have a carrier to fly off of right now! And haven't for two years. I can't see how much your previous experience had help you. It certainly didn't help you maintain a working carrier arm

U were comparing Liaoning to Vikramaditya but then changed to Vikrant
Who said that Vikramaditya didn't saw any operation recently unavailability doesn’t mean it wasn't available since its commissioning
It's not our fault if our neighbors don't report on Vikramaditya

 

[jai jaganath]

Yes bad luck happens, I agree.

China's first 075 LHD had a fire on April 2020 during fitting out!
View attachment 181734

But it was commissioned in April of 2021:
View attachment 181735

Today
View attachment 181737

I think the reason why maintenance with China's Navy seems to be far more efficient and its scheduling far better planned is the fact that every part in Chinese vessels is made in China.

So I agree that the Indian Navy's maintenance team is under different and heavier pressure. But that does not absolve the Indian Navy's staff of bad planning in using foreign systems and not taking that into account in their scheduling.

Vikrant already is delayed many years after launch and I can imagine it is because of foreign systems. I don't think that will change after commissioning.

Exactly 1 year of delay

 

[jai jaganath]

When China got the Varyag from Ukraine, it looked like this:
View attachment 181728

When India got the Vikramaditya from Russia, it looked like this:
View attachment 181729

Yet, the Liaoning had operated on a schedule and cadence that is many times that of the Vikramaditya

We will see about Vikrant but it was launched in 2011 and was commisioned only this year, right? So Vikrant already has very serious issues after launch otherwise why would it take 11 years to commision and STILL not able accept launch and recover aircraft?

So why would the future be all that different for Vikrant? How does just saying Vikrant is in service change anything?

Shandong was launched in 2017 and commisioned in 2019.

Launched in 2011 (still cannot launch aircraft):
View attachment 181732

Launched in 2017
View attachment 181733

The part about you talking to an US carrier pilot is a very silly reply. Anyone can say they talk to anyone on the internet. lol

On the experience of Indian pilots versus Chinese, you do not even have a carrier to fly off of right now! And haven't for two years. I can't see how much your previous experience had help you. It certainly didn't help you maintain a working carrier arm

Moreover u got a complete AC which is rusted only on outside but everything was designed wrt AC
We converted an HC + cruise missile carrier ship into AC
Logic bro

 

[jai jaganath]

When China got the Varyag from Ukraine, it looked like this:
View attachment 181728

When India got the Vikramaditya from Russia, it looked like this:
View attachment 181729

Yet, the Liaoning had operated on a schedule and cadence that is many times that of the Vikramaditya

We will see about Vikrant but it was launched in 2011 and was commisioned only this year, right? So Vikrant already has very serious issues after launch otherwise why would it take 11 years to commision and STILL not able accept launch and recover aircraft?

So why would the future be all that different for Vikrant? How does just saying Vikrant is in service change anything?

Shandong was launched in 2017 and commisioned in 2019.

Launched in 2011 (still cannot launch aircraft):
View attachment 181732

Launched in 2017
View attachment 181733

The part about you talking to an US carrier pilot is a very silly reply. Anyone can say they talk to anyone on the internet. lol

On the experience of Indian pilots versus Chinese, you do not even have a carrier to fly off of right now! And haven't for two years. I can't see how much your previous experience had help you. It certainly didn't help you maintain a working carrier arm

Stop jumping from Vikramaditya to Vikrant in every post both have different challenges and tenure

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Everything sounds imported which tells us a little bit about future availability

Last I checked Barak - 8 is basically manufactured in India along with its Airforce and Army variants. Ak-630 and OTO -76 mm is manufactured in Trichy for decades now. The indigenous EW Suite is being developed by DRDO. The only component are MF-STAR and L-Band one which is imported. Even that systems got necessary replacement available in the LR-MFR already available in INS ANVESH which is operational. The L- Band radar can also be replaced by Swordfish Radar which is operational with IA from 2009. These are well planned by IN regarding the indigenous solutions.

HAL can do MRO for LM-2500+ and COGAG is basically build by an Indian Firm ELECON. Thus I don't see any issue in availability rate of INS Vikrant since the above systems can be maintained by Indian Vendors easily along with Upgrades.

As such, a new carrier like Vikrant wouldn't necessarily mean it would be more available since the Vikramaditya itself is practically new to Indian service as it was commissioned in only 2014 --- even later than the Liaoning which entered service in 2012.

Does INS Vikrant and Vikramadithya using same components? Any empirical evidence to prove that INS Vikrant will have same availability rate as Vikramadithya. Otherwise just some random verbal diarrhea.

That brings up the availability issue again. If a navy with decades of experience can end up with no operational carriers for two years running then how much is that experience worth and why would the new Vikrant carrier be any different in a carrier arm that can go MIA for years?

Again, poor mudslinging. If a Carrier went for Refit how can the Air arm will train on them? Again, significant confusion regarding Vikrant and Vikramadithya. INS Vikrant handed over to IN in 2022 August 15. Indian Navy knows they are going to work with Single Carrier in the 2013 itself. With availability of INS Vikrant and refitted Vikramadithya the training program will go full swing. Simulator, Offshore STOBAR facility available to maintain requirement Pilot hours during non-availability of carriers. This is standard practice across Navies.


Both INS Vikramadithya and INS Vikrant are entirely different designs.

We will see about Vikrant but it was launched in 2011 and was commisioned only this year, right? So Vikrant already has very serious issues after launch otherwise why would it take 11 years to commision and STILL not able accept launch and recover aircraft?

Launched in 2011 (still cannot launch aircraft):
View attachment 181732

Launched in 2017
View attachment 181733
On the experience of Indian pilots versus Chinese, you do not even have a carrier to fly off of right now! And haven't for two years. I can't see how much your previous experience had help you. It certainly didn't help you maintain a working carrier arm

INS Vikrant in 2013

This is INS Vikrant 2013. Looks like you guys can launch planes from this type of partially completed ships also. Also, again grand talking without any evidence to prove stating there is a serious trouble in manufacturing of ship. What kind of trouble will it come in this partially completed ship?

It is handed over to Navy in 2022 and Navy will validate systems and start Carrier ops. Again, for godsake don't confuse ships and timelines.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Moreover u got a complete AC which is rusted only on outside but everything was designed wrt AC
We converted an HC + cruise missile carrier ship into AC
Logic bro

But India did not have to convert anything. It was Russia who did all the conversion work.

All India had to do is to keep it running -- which it didn't do a very good job at it seems.

 

[J20!]

When China got the Varyag from Ukraine, it looked like this:
View attachment 181728

When India got the Vikramaditya from Russia, it looked like this:
View attachment 181729

Yet, the Liaoning had operated on a schedule and cadence that is many times that of the Vikramaditya

We will see about Vikrant but it was launched in 2011 and was commisioned only this year, right? So Vikrant already has very serious issues after launch otherwise why would it take 11 years to commision and STILL not able accept launch and recover aircraft?

So why would the future be all that different for Vikrant? How does just saying Vikrant is in service change anything?

Shandong was launched in 2017 and commisioned in 2019.

Launched in 2011 (still cannot launch aircraft):
View attachment 181732

Launched in 2017
View attachment 181733

The part about you talking to an US carrier pilot is a very silly reply. Anyone can say they talk to anyone on the internet. lol

On the experience of Indian pilots versus Chinese, you do not even have a carrier to fly off of right now! And haven't for two years. I can't see how much your previous experience had help you. It certainly didn't help you maintain a working carrier arm

Small correction. Vikrant has not been really been commissioned yet. The MF Star he mentioned earlier is not yet installed. Arrestor gear from Russia still missing.

She won't be in actual service this year. She wont have an airwing integrated anytime soon. Maybe next year, maybe the year after that.

The reason people are bringing up Rafale and F/A18E is the Mig29K has been a pain to maintain, and considering the suppliers current situation, that is not going to change anytime soon.

Just facts... Again, this comparison is moot.

 

[jai jaganath]

But India did not have to convert anything. It was Russia who did all the conversion work.

All India had to do is to keep it running -- which it didn't do a very good job at it seems.

Point is that conversion was the complication point in terms operating as it has many restrictions but in your case even though u built it using blueprints but it was designed as AC as base
Common sense

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

But India did not have to convert anything. It was Russia who did all the conversion work.

All India had to do is to keep it running -- which it didn't do a very good job at it seems.

Ship went to refit because the quality of work done by Russia is not up to mark. The ship went to refit during India's COVID Second wave time (2021) which is results in various lockdown across different states. The refit includes installation of various systems of Indian origin which got affected due to lockdown.

With new normal stabilized necessary work is going on.


Again, don't confuse ships and timelines for God sake.

 

[jai jaganath]

Small correction. Vikrant has not been commissioned yet. The MF Star he mentioned earlier is not yet installed. Arrestor gear from Russia still missing.

She won't be commissioned this year. Maybe next year, maybe the year after that.

The reason people are bringing up Rafale and F/A18E is the Mig29K has been a pain to maintain, and considering the suppliers current situation, that is not going to change anytime soon.

Just facts... Again, this comparison is moot.

Small correction here
Mf-star is being integrated as pointed by osints
Arresting gears is present right now as flight trails will start from Nov mid or end
Helicopter trails and other necessary equipment trails are done
Comparison is justified till Shandong
It has been commissioned

 

[jai jaganath]

Ship went to refit because the quality of work done by Russia is not up to mark. The ship went to refit during India's COVID Second wave time (2021) which is results in various lockdown across different states. The refit includes installation of various systems of Indian origin which got affected due to lockdown.

With new normal stabilized necessary work is going on.


Again, don't confuse ships and timelines for God sake.

@binayak95 ji can further tell about it

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Stop jumping from Vikramaditya to Vikrant in every post both have different challenges and tenure

They are responses to posts that included both.

Besides, why would we need to concentrate on one Indian carrier or the other when this is a CV-17 Shandong thread? An Indian post claimed that India is better in a Chinese carrier thread so shouldn't we take the entire carrier arms into consideration to see if this is case?

India has no carrier operational right now while China has a carrier right now, at this very minute, operating in the East China Sea. So that is the first most obvious we need to look at. The Vikramaditya had been inoperable for two years and the Vikrant still cannot receive aircraft 11 years after launch.

If you want to compare India and China on carrier aviation then it is appropriate to compare Liaoning to Vikramaditya and Shandong to Vikrant.

This was the impact of Shandong in 2019 (just two years after launch!)

 

[J20!]

Last I checked Barak - 8 is basically manufactured in India along with its Airforce and Army variants. Ak-630 and OTO -76 mm is manufactured in Trichy for decades now. The indigenous EW Suite is being developed by DRDO. The only component are MF-STAR and L-Band one which is imported. Even that systems got necessary replacement available in the LR-MFR already available in INS ANVESH which is operational. The L- Band radar can also be replaced by Swordfish Radar which is operational with IA from 2009. These are well planned by IN regarding the indigenous solutions.

HAL can do MRO for LM-2500+ and COGAG is basically build by an Indian Firm ELECON. Thus I don't see any issue in availability rate of INS Vikrant since the above systems can be maintained by Indian Vendors easily along with Upgrades.




Does INS Vikrant and Vikramadithya using same components? Any empirical evidence to prove that INS Vikrant will have same availability rate as Vikramadithya. Otherwise just some random verbal diarrhea.





Again, poor mudslinging. If a Carrier went for Refit how can the Air arm will train on them? Again, significant confusion regarding Vikrant and Vikramadithya. INS Vikrant handed over to IN in 2022 August 15. Indian Navy knows they are going to work with Single Carrier in the 2013 itself. With availability of INS Vikrant and refitted Vikramadithya the training program will go full swing. Simulator, Offshore STOBAR facility available to maintain requirement Pilot hours during non-availability of carriers. This is standard practice across Navies.


Both INS Vikramadithya and INS Vikrant are entirely different designs.






INS Vikrant in 2013
View attachment 181740

This is INS Vikrant 2013. Looks like you guys can launch planes from this type of partially completed ships also. Also, again grand talking without any evidence to prove stating there is a serious trouble in manufacturing of ship. What kind of trouble will it come in this partially completed ship?

It is handed over to Navy in 2022 and Navy will validate systems and start Carrier ops. Again, for godsake don't confuse ships and timelines.

The IN and Indian Naval shipbuilders are famous for this kind of empty showman ship.

Vikrant was first "launched" as an incomplete Hull missing the while Island. Then "re-launched" later when it was actually ready.

Now the IN and Modi have "commissioned" a carrier, or "handed it over to the navy", but MF Star is missing. No anti-slip surface applied to the flight deck. No arrestor cables.

The ship IS NOT COMPLETE. AFTER 13 years of work. CV17 was laid down, launched, commissioned and operationalised when the project was initiated YEARS after Vikrant was laid down.

If Indian Naval industry can't even complete the ship on time, what hope do you have in terms of maintenance? Most subsystems on the ship depend on foreign supply. Yeah, some subsystems are locally maintained but they are still just assembling foreign systems and beholden to that supply chain.

Indian shipbuilding is by no means "a beast" as some on here claim.

 

[jai jaganath]

The IN and Indian Naval shipbuilders are famous for this kind of empty showman ship.

Vikrant was first "launched" as an incomplete Hull missing the while Island. Then "re-launched" later when it was actually ready.

Now the IN and Modi have "commissioned" a carrier, or "handed it over to the navy", but MF Star is missing. No anti-slip surface applied to the flight deck. No arrestor cables.

The ship IS NOT COMPLETE. AFTER 13 years of work. CV17 was laid down, launched, commissioned and operationalised when the project was initiated YEARS after Vikrant was laid down.

If Indian Naval industry can't even complete the ship on time, what hope do you have in terms of maintenance? Most subsystems on the ship depend on foreign supply. Yeah, some subsystems are locally maintained but they are still just assembling foreign systems and beholden to that supply chain.

Indian shipbuilding is by no means "a beast" as some on here claim.

Oh oh such a unnecessary cry
It has been repeated numerous times in other threads that the actual dependency on foreign systems has been decreased as they didn't deliver them on time so we needed to develop it
Oh sorry but can u say how is it mostly dependent on foreign equipments baring few as our naval industry is not that matured as others
Planning was done on the supply chain constraint which was disrupted due to their ill intentions so we had to develope it as contingency plan

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Point is that conversion was the complication point in terms operating as it has many restrictions but in your case even though u built it using blueprints but it was designed as AC as base
Common sense

You understand this was planning by the PLAN, correct?

China has two Kiev class vessels and never bothered to convert them and had to go through a lot of hardship to get the Varyag and then rebuild the rusted hulk because it was the correct choice for the development of the carrier arm. It was a proper carrier unlike the Kiev class.

It was for the same reason why China chose the SU-33 instead of the MiG-29K. Because the SU-33 planform was a far better carrier fighter with far more potential than MiG-29K.

The only issue was Sukhoi was overloaded with Flankers orders and did not want to restart SU-33 line. So China went ahead with the J-15.

MiG was desperate for orders and India saved it by financing 29K

There are now many variants of J-15s including a CATOBAR version while India is looking to replace the brand new MiG-29Ks it has with CATOBAR F-18s and Rafales and India only has STOBAR carriers.

Planning seems very bad with the Indian carrier service in spite of the oft-mentioned experience compared to the Chinese one.

 

[jai jaganath]

They are responses to posts that included both.

Besides, why would we need to concentrate on one Indian carrier or the other when this is a CV-17 Shandong thread? An Indian post claimed that India is better in a Chinese carrier thread so shouldn't we take the entire carrier arms into consideration to see if this is case?

India has no carrier operational right now while China has a carrier right now, at this very minute, operating in the East China Sea. So that is the first most obvious we need to look at. The Vikramaditya had been inoperable for two years and the Vikrant still cannot receive aircraft 11 years after launch.

If you want to compare India and China on carrier aviation then it is appropriate to compare Liaoning to Vikramaditya and Shandong to Vikrant.

This was the impact of Shandong in 2019 (just two years after launch!)

Pls note hour posts u are sometimes comparing Liaoning to Vikrant too

 

[jai jaganath]

You understand this was planning by the PLAN, correct?

China has two Kiev class vessels and never bothered to convert them and had to go through a lot of hardship to get the Varyag and then rebuild the rusted hulk because it was the correct choice for the development of the carrier arm. It was a proper carrier unlike the Kiev class.

It was for the same reason why China chose the SU-33 instead of the MiG-29K. Because the SU-33 planform was a far better carrier fighter with far more potential than MiG-29K.

The only issue was Sukhoi was overloaded with Flankers orders and did not want to restart SU-33 line. So China went ahead with the J-15.

MiG was desperate for orders and India saved it by financing 29K

There are now many variants of J-15s including a CATOBAR version while India is looking to replace the brand new MiG-29Ks it has with CATOBAR F-18s and Rafales and India only has STOBAR carriers.

Planning is very bad with the Indian carrier compared to the Chinese one.

So want do u want to prove from this post
Yeah u spent more money on AC development and got one due to higher economy and intent of bureaucracy
We didn't have much money and end up buying it
Vikramaditya was a decision due to corruption and its very well known so we are dealing it well when it was in service and if 1 year planning for refit gets delayed due to fire what's the fault of IN here

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

The IN and Indian Naval shipbuilders are famous for this kind of empty showman ship.

Vikrant was first "launched" as an incomplete Hull missing the while Island. Then "re-launched" later when it was actually ready.

Now the IN and Modi have "commissioned" a carrier, or "handed it over to the navy", but MF Star is missing. No anti-slip surface applied to the flight deck. No arrestor cables.

The ship IS NOT COMPLETE. AFTER 13 years of work. CV17 was laid down, launched, commissioned and operationalised when the project was initiated YEARS after Vikrant was laid down.

If Indian Naval industry can't even complete the ship on time, what hope do you have in terms of maintenance? Most subsystems on the ship depend on foreign supply. Yeah, some subsystems are locally maintained but they are still just assembling foreign systems and beholden to that supply chain.

Indian shipbuilding is by no means "a beast" as some on here claim.

Ship builders build according to the funding provided by Indian Navy. Indian Navy have limited Capex and it needs to be distributed across various warships they are under construction.

Most subsystems on the ship depend on foreign supply.


I have clearly mentioned the subsystems manufacturers in this thread. Barak-8 is the JV between DRDO and IAI and BDL (India) will manufacture it in India. The Indian version uses components like Seeker from DRDO etc.

This is the final usage of a set subsystems provided by vendors of foreign origin. Most of them already have Indian partner for maintenance.


If Indian Naval industry can't even complete the ship on time, what hope do you have in terms of maintenance? Most subsystems on the ship depend on foreign supply. Yeah, some subsystems are locally maintained but they are still just assembling foreign systems and beholden to that supply chain.

Whenever you are making claims, please provide some strong backing with proofs. Naval shipyards maintaining IN ships for decades now. It also done refits to even older destroyers and modified them and delivered it without issue.

Again, you should list out the "Foreign subsystems" so we can see what is there or not.

Jerking off to CV-17 is of no use since the budget of PLAN alone is much higher and have shipyards to build 75000 tonnes. Indian shipyards are smaller in nature due to less commercial ship building activities.

Still the question arise why you guys did not use Carrier power when some old lady from USA visited Taiwan.

Hmm still lack of confidence.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

So want do u want to prove from this post
Yeah u spent more money on AC development and got one due to higher economy and intent of bureaucracy
We didn't have much money and end up buying it
Vikramaditya was a decision due to corruption and its very well known so we are dealing it well when it was in service and if 1 year planning for refit gets delayed due to fire what's the fault of IN here

Okay, the reason could be because of corruption, lack of money or poor planning but the point is the Indian carrier arm is simply not in the same league as the Chinese one and the Indian poster who started the comparison should never have.

Whether it is the ships, aircraft, availability, sorties or operations in general, the two carrier arms aren't even close.

When the Indian navy do not have an operational carrier because it chose a helo cruiser conversion and is already actively trying to replace new carrier fighters that it had chosen badly then why bother comparing?

China's carriers are impacting other countries -- J-15s are not only launched in 100s of sorties but are creating hundreds of scrambles from Japanese fighters.