China Economy: News & Discussion

Iamanidiot

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Armand doesn't the CCP know that such high costs is bad for economy and itself.Armand another question how much of chinese GDP is generated by useless construction and subsidised cars
 

Armand2REP

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Armand doesn't the CCP know that such high costs is bad for economy and itself.Armand another question how much of chinese GDP is generated by useless construction and subsidised cars
Construction is 40-50% of GDP. A healthy rate is 20% so 25% of their GDP is waste. It really isn't so hard to see that when we see how much the money supply is growing, 25-30% annually.
 

Armand2REP

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Taking into account excess capacity in commerical and residential properties at 30%, 40% in steel, the GDP is 20-25% artificially inflated by fixed asset investment.
 

tony4562

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Average price for coastal cities is 15,000 which is where most people live. Taking 6000 as an average inland price and you still end up over 10000. Also note the drastic jump in prices in Chongqing and the rest of inland China. 17.9% jump in one quarter, it will not be long until it is as expensive as the coast.
Avg price for new house on the coast is not 15000, only 4 or 5 reach that level. Housing prices have actually come down a lot in shanghai, hangzhou and beijing, the 3 cities with the highest prices.
 

Rage

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China sold 4-5 times more cars than india did last year, and china's GDP has been reported as 4 times larger than india's, so if india's number is 100% trustworthy, then why must china's number be inflated? The truth is the GDP number of any 3rd world country on this planet can only be treated as a reference number. How folks live, eat, consume is far more important. You take a walk in the streets in both countries, you will feel the differences.
China has also had 3-4 fiscal revaluations since the the 1990s'. India has had none.

One is due very soon. Which will decrease the margin of China's to India's GDP by about 3.8-4 times to about 3-3.5 times.

I'd expect a country that liberalized 13 years before India did, that used expropriative measures to accelerate its growth, and that has completely fvcked up its environment, to have better "looking cities" than India does. To not do so, at this point, would be a colossal shame.
 

amoy

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Here is the s**t you get with 'China slums' in Google: China%...w=1440 - Google Search
+++++++++++++++
when I clicked this link about China slums
actually most of the pics are not of China. Could u guys do the same? Mexico, Manila, Calcutta...... check it yourself
 

Armand2REP

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Avg price for new house on the coast is not 15000, only 4 or 5 reach that level. Housing prices have actually come down a lot in shanghai, hangzhou and beijing, the 3 cities with the highest prices.
Prices in those cities have been artificially deflated by temporarily banning the sale of second homes and putting few new properties on the market. As soon as that lifts it will be back to business as usual. People are sit and staring until it eases up. Prices in Hainan are over 30000, Hangzhou is 25000 at the lowest, 70000 at the city centre. Finding an Apartment in Hangzhou – Hangzhou Best In Town | eChinacities.com CCP greatly underestimates real prices.
 

Rage

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Here is the shit you get with 'China slums' in Google: China%...w=1440 - Google Search
+++++++++++++++
when I clicked this link about China slums
actually most of the pics are not of China. Could u guys do the same? Mexico, Manila, Calcutta...... check it yourself


Eh, eh. The link you've pasted is certainly not the link I've posted.

About half of the pics on that Google search are of Chinese slums.


There are more a little more searching could find:

Shanghai slums - Google Search

http://www.mywayaround.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/20081019_szk_0124.jpg

http://designhistorylab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/4-04old-city-overview-shanghai-2004.jpg

slums street - Shanghai, China | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

http://blogs.bootsnall.com/old_travel_blogs/rob/archives/man swimming by slum.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/21800441.jpg


I won't berate the point. Both countries have moved ahead, but your paesaan seems intent on running down India in the muck.
 
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Daredevil

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New Chinese labour laws may force flight of foreign investment news

07 September 2010


Overseas companies may no longer find China a lucrative country to set up manufacturing units after the newly-drafted labour laws in southern China's Shenzhen special economic zone (SEZ) wer e introduced, aimed at empowering workers to collectively negotiate higher wages.

The draft law scheduled to be reviewed this month, allows workers in the manufacturing hub of Shenzhen SEZ to collectively bargain for higher salary if the wages of the majority of workers are less than half the average pay level in the city.

The average monthly wages for factory workers in the city are about 3,900 yuan ($560), while workers at most of the manufacturing units at Shenzhen SEZ are paid between 1,100 yuan ($146) to 1,500 yuan ($220).

The new labour draft comes after the Shenzhen SEZ was hit by a series of wage disputes mainly at Japanese auto parts units that saw production grinding to halt until the companies agreed to hike wages.

The new laws would allow workers at Shenzhen SEZ demand wage hikes of as much as 70 per cent in order to bring their salary level to that of city workers.

Labour strikes started in May in Shenzhen SEZ and in nearby cites in Guangdong province, affecting parts suppliers of Japanese carmakers like Honda and Toyota.

Taiwan's Hon Hai Precision Industry, the world's largest contract manufacturer to companies like Apple, raised workers' wages at its Shenzhen plant by 66 per cent from 1 October 2010, in a bid to prevent a spate of worker suicides the consequent rising public anger against it.

Overseas firms in China are now increasingly facing labour issues with migrant workers, many from the vast countryside, demanding better pay and service conditions.

After a series of copy-cat strikes at Shenzen, analysts had then said that China was rapidly turning into a developed market from an emerging market and labour costs were set to rise. They said car makers have little choice but to accept higher costs and wages if they want to remain in business in China.

Shenzhen SEZ, established in 1980, comprises four of the six districts of Shenzhen City in Guangdong Province spanning an area of 493km that turned the city from a cluster of fishing villages with a population of 30,000 into a booming metropolis of 8.9 million.

Shenzhen, which is often seen as a test bed for economic reform in China, had an output of $120 billion last year. Year after year, Shenzhen has delivered double-digit growth but workers' salaries have remained the same since the past decade.

Shenzhen became the first area in China to be designated as a special economic zone that could accept foreign investment, under reforms brought out by the late Deng Xiaoping.

Overseas companies were lured into investing in Shenzhen as it offered lower taxes, cheap power, less red tape and abundant cheap labour that would later set the place to lead the country's explosive manufacturing-based economic growth.

But with social unrest due to huge differences in wages between workers at Shenzhen SEZ to those working in cities, the country saw mass strikes and Beijing for the first time remained a mute spectator.

"If you are a foreign enterprise and cannot afford to pay higher wages, then get out of China," one Guangdong provincial official is reported to have said.

But many overseas companies are now pondering pulling out of China as cheap labour was one of the prime reasons that made them invest in the country in the first place.

Some companies like Foxconn have already decided to shift some of their manufacturing units from Shenzhen to Northern China, where labour costs are still low.

Foxconn is planning to build a new plant in Zhengzhou, capital of Central China's Henan province.
 

Armand2REP

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What makes CCP think exporters will stick around if they have to pay workers $560 a month? They can get cheaper labour in Russia.
 

amoy

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The average monthly wages for factory workers in the city are about 3,900 yuan ($560), while workers at most of the manufacturing units at Shenzhen SEZ are paid between 1,100 yuan ($146) to 1,500 yuan ($220).

++++++++++++++
Probably this reporter has mixed up a few figures or a few notions (such as Shenzhen City and Shenzhen SEZ).

3,900 yuan ($560) shall refer to average wage in whole Shenzhen (not limited to factory workers). minimum wage by law in Shenzhen is 1,150/month. Shenzhen SEZ was expanded to include the whole SZ municipality.

Shenzhen or Guangdong Province , frankly adopts a so-called policy of "switching birds in the cage" (a metaphor in their words), i.e. deliberately 'pushing out' low-end industries ( like sparrow) to give way to 'high-end' industries (phoenix).

As in the example given Foxconn (Hon Hai) is setting up assembly lines elsewhere (North China) consequently for cheaper labor and other factors.

In my opinion, it's just natural for industries shifting from one area to another within a country. When Shenzhen or Guangdng climb up the ladder such edges as "lower taxes, cheap power, less red tape and abundant cheap labour" can't be retained all the time. Shenzhen hopes to advance to other value chains. For example Huawei, ZTE and BYD Auto (Buffet invests in this company) and many innovative companies are based in Shenzhen as well as China's Security Exchange . Meantime investors may opt for suitable soil in other parts of China for labor intensive industries.

CCP nowadays is more or less turning to upgrading living standards of ordinary people along with GDP growth rate at %%. Guangdong is 'selected' as the test ground like at the very early stage of 'opening and reform'.
 

Aruni

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The new Chinese laws which could potentially push up unit labour costs have been commented on much elaborately in the press. However, before people here get too excited and start predicting an en masse exodus of Western and Japanese exporters from China should bear in the mind that aside from labour costs, they should enjoy:

- trouble free industrial relations (as labour dissent can be bludgeoned);
- first class infrastructure (power, roads, etc);
- a simple and favourable tax regime; and
- access to local clusters of expertise (i.e. parts required to manufacture a product are available locally and easily).

Therefore, please don't lose sleep if 12 months down the line China's exports have grown exponentially rather than collapsed as a result of the new legislation.

It is inevitable as China becomes a middle income country, some competitiveness will be lost to poorer countries such as Vietnam, Phillipenes and Laos, and then the challenge for China will be to climb up the value chain which I am not sure it is capable of doing yet.
 

badguy2000

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China has also had 3-4 fiscal revaluations since the the 1990s'. India has had none.

One is due very soon. Which will decrease the margin of China's to India's GDP by about 3.8-4 times to about 3-3.5 times.

I'd expect a country that liberalized 13 years before India did, that used expropriative measures to accelerate its growth, and that has completely fvcked up its environment, to have better "looking cities" than India does. To not do so, at this point, would be a colossal shame.
such explainnation is in vain,because you can find dozens of reasons from Reason A to Reason Z,but you can find only one end ,which is that nominal GDP of CHina gets more and more than India's.

in 2015,CHina's nominal GDP would be easily reach 10 trillion USD.however, India's can not surpass 2 trillion USD.
 

Vinod2070

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such explainnation is in vain,because you can find dozens of reasons from Reason A to Reason Z,but you can find only one end ,which is that nominal GDP of CHina gets more and more than India's.

in 2015,CHina's nominal GDP would be easily reach 10 trillion USD.however, India's can not surpass 2 trillion USD.
You are hallucinating. Give some links that validate this blabber.

Indian growth rates are already about the same as China and will surpass it. China just can't sustain the rates of past now.

You claimed that by 2020, China would be 10 times Indian GDP. So if India is at $4 trillions, would China be at $40 trillions? Only a super delusional mind would claim that!
 

badguy2000

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You are hallucinating. Give some links that validate this blabber.

Indian growth rates are already about the same as China and will surpass it. China just can't sustain the rates of past now.

You claimed that by 2020, China would be 10 times Indian GDP. So if India is at $4 trillions, would China be at $40 trillions? Only a super delusional mind would claim that!
CHina's GDP was about 35 trillion RMB in 2009 while exchange rate was about 6.8 RMB=1 USD.


In 2020, CHina's nominal GDP can be easily 120-150trillion RMB at least!
 
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Singh

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Much of China's GDP vanishes into thin air


Recently, the Chinese economy edged past Japan to become the world's second largest, and most economists believe China is on course to overtake the US to become the world's biggest by 2030 or so. However, not everyone believes China's recent crossing of that statistical milestone is significant, or that it will inexorably surpass the US.


Dr Derek Scissors, economics research fellow at the conservative think-tank Heritage Foundation's Asian Studies Centre, points out that the headline GDP number exaggerates the Chinese people's prosperitylevels.


In an interview with DNA, Scissors says that a flawed economic structure in China — where individuals subsidise large state-owned enterprises — has fed an extraordinary imbalance.
Recently, China's GDP edged past Japan's to become the world's second largest economy.


How significant is the crossing of that statistical milestone?
It's not very significant, for two reasons. The first is that this is old news. If you properly count Chinese GDP — which the Chinese don't seem to ever do, since they're always finding new GDP they missed —China's GDP using normal exchange rates passed Japan's maybe three or four years ago. And if you adjust for purchasing power parity, China passed Japan 15 years ago.
Secondly, the flaw in China's model is that not much of the GDP is delivered to households and individuals as it is in other countries. Much of it is siphoned off to state-owned enterprises or vanishes into thin air.


So, when we look at China's GDP growth, we get an exaggerated version of how rich China is getting. But the disparity between headline GDP and per capita income isn't unique to China"¦
It's not unique to China, but it's worse in China than in any major economy.
Chinese society is structured to have people subsidise companies. I'm not picking an issue with the size of China's economy; what I'm contesting is the actual prosperity delivered to the people.


On the same count, aren't projections that say China will be a world's biggest economy, overtaking the US by 2030 or whenever, significant?
I think we should be cautiously interested. I say 'cautious' because the idea that you can take the last 30 years' growth and project it for the next 30 years is absurd. Look where China was from 1950 to 1980 and then from 1980 to 2010. Look at Japan from 1960 to 1990 and then from 1990 to now. Major economies can undergo sharp changes in their trajectory, for better or for worse. The idea that you can project China's growth into the future is silly.


However, China does have 1.3 billion people. GDP — not necessarily personal income — is growing quite rapidly, and if China handles its economy correctly, it will surpass the US in 15-20 years. But if it doesn't handle it correctly, it will hit a wall like Japan did, and at a much lower income. So, there are many possibilities, but only one of them is the idea that China inexorably passes the US.


What are the 'right' economic choices for China — and the 'wrong' ones?
You could say I have an ideological bias, but I have Deng Xiaoping on my side. In 1978, he sensed that the only growth that was coming was from the assignment of property rights to farmers. So he introduced market reforms. And when he left power, he anointed a set of successors who were also committed to that path. But the current government is not just not committed to market reform, it is committed to state-led growth.


But hasn't the state-led economic model worked in China?
I don't think it has delivered as much.
China was reforming for 25 years, till about 2004, when the market gave way to the state. The problem is that the state isn't organised to create wealth. In a few years, we will see China's labour force start to contract. Return on capital has dropped because of so much state investment. Returns from land are dropping because of overexploitation, and the way China can grow going forward is like every mature economy — from efficiency — but the state is not organised for it.


You're also sceptical about the authenticity of Chinese economic data. What's wrong with it?
About a million things! Everybody knows — and even the Chinese government has admitted — that China's official urban unemployment rate is understated. But they continue to put out lower unemployment figures for political reasons. The provinces report higher GDP growth and foreign investment than the central government reports. On the technical side, China uses the pricing value for its components to GDP — like investment and consumption. When prices are soaring, China tends to use a lower price and makes GDP growth look like it's not out of control; and when prices are dropping, it uses a higher price, and it makes it look like GDP growth is strong. So what you get are smooth patterns of economic growth delivered by a developing economy that's vulnerable to outside shocks. Very unlikely!


When China announced the depegging of the yuan, it was anticipated that it would appreciate against the US dollar, but it hasn't happened. Given the political atmosphere in Washington, is there a risk of trade friction?
It's a political problem more than an economic one; although there are serious economic problems with Chinese policy, the yuan isn't one of them. I don't believe the yuan was ever
depegged against the dollar. People get excited by a 0.2% move by the yuan, but it isn't such a big deal. China has a huge balance of payments surplus, and the yuan should move a lot if it's to be meaningful. The reason it hasn't moved is that it's still pegged to the dollar.


In recent weeks, we've seen China diversify away from US dollar assets into Asian bonds. Is this the start of a trend?
No, the monthly treasury data is wrong: it doesn't check on the source of the original buyer. What we're seeing is an apparent decline in Chinese purchases and a gigantic increase in British purchases. All that's happening is that China's investment body for bonds is routing purchases through its British office — essentially to hide it to avert political criticism at home.


In recent times, there have been fears of a bubble in the Chinese economy. How bad are the imbalances, and will it all end?
People can call it what they want, but it's not a bubble like the American bubble in housing in 2007. China has a mixed economy, where bubbles are (usually) created and propped administratively. You're going to see a Chinese version of a bust in real estate, and it's going to cut into China's GDP growth, but they won't report it. They under-reported GDP growth in 2006 and they will over-report it in 2011. You won't see a crash — or even just evidence of a crash — because they will hide it.
 

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China U-turn on enforced power cuts in Hebei


Cyclists pass through thick pollution from a factory in Hebei province (2006) Hebei province accounts for a quarter of the China's total steel production capacity

Thousands of people in China are to have their electricity restored after the reversal of an order for enforced power cuts to meet energy-saving goals.

Officials in Hebei province ordered local governments to maintain normal power supplies for residential users.

Hospitals, schools and homes in Anping county have suffered intermittent cuts.

China overtook the US last year as the world's biggest energy consumer, but with a bigger population it is still well behind in consumption per person.

The local government in Anping cut power to homes and other public facilities, including switching off traffic lights, in a bid to meet its 2010 energy efficiency goals set by Beijing, local media reported.:emot15:

Residents and workers have endured day-long blackouts over the past two weeks, according to reports.

However, Beijing said cutting household power did not conform with central government policy and ordered supplies to be restored.

Blackouts and enforced power cuts are said to be affecting industry in Hebei province, which accounts for a quarter of the country's total steel production capacity.

Some 57 blast furnaces and production lines have been closed since 4 September to save energy.

China's energy-efficiency goals include a 20% reduction in energy consumption per unit of economic output, or energy intensity, by the end of the year.

Last month Beijing ordered more than 2,000 factories to shut by the end of September because it said they were wasting too much energy.
 

Daredevil

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Why Foreign Businesses in China Are Getting Mad

By Chengcheng Jiang / Beijing

Foreign businesses in China are voicing growing frustration about the country's heavily regulated market — a bureaucratic maze many say is designed deliberately to hamstring non-Chinese players to the advantage of their local competitors. Last week the European Union Chamber of Commerce in China joined the chorus: its annual position paper, an unwieldy, 650-page tome, lists hundreds of market-access problems for foreign companies across a range of industries. By stymieing open competition between local and foreign business, China is hurting itself too, says the organization's president, Jacques de Boisséson. "The proportion of European investments to China compared to the overall outbound investment from the E.U. is only 3%," he says. "There is not enough European investment in China."

Direct foreign investment in China has been growing in step with the nation's booming economy but not as quickly as many would like. Europe's exports to China totaled € 78.4 billion in 2008, a rise of 9% from 2007. But, says the European chamber, which represents 1,400 international businesses, trade with the small nation of Switzerland is still three times as high. Despite the 30 years that have passed since Beijing swung open the doors to foreign investment, "China still remains excessively regulated and less open to competition compared to other major economies," the paper reads. (See the top 10 Chinese knockoffs.)

Though international investors have complained for decades about the bureaucratic hoops they have to jump through to access the China market, their concerns have been sharpened in recent years by a series of regulatory changes that appear directly intended to shut out foreigners. They've made European companies wary of committing more capital to the China market, says de Boisséson. "What we are telling [the Chinese government] is that our companies are willing to invest, and for that, they need to be sure that they will be treated equally. Today they are concerned that this wouldn't be the case."

Their concerns are not unfounded. In early 2009 a set of policy proposals known as Indigenous Innovation Accreditation caused alarm among international businesses when early drafts seemed to shut the door to foreign products across the high-tech industry through a complicated licensing system that required companies to register their IPR in China before registering elsewhere in order to qualify. In a report this June, the Washington-based U.S. Chamber of Commerce said the policies were "considered by many international technology companies to be a blueprint for technology theft on a scale the world has never seen before."

While subsequent drafts of the law have been more accommodating, foreigners have also complained loudly that they are being shut out of much of the lucrative government procurement sector. The U.S. and most other Western markets are signed up to the World Trade Organization's government procurement agreement, legally forbidding them to keep foreigners out. China, however, is not signed up. Last year the European chamber stated that government tenders in the fast-growing wind-power sector were deliberately designed to keep foreign companies out of the running by inserting criteria that only Chinese companies could meet. The organization also noted that not one of 25 valuable contracts awarded to companies under the government's $584 billion stimulus package went to a foreign-owned company.

The atmosphere does not appear to have improved. In July the heads of two of Europe's largest companies caught Beijing off guard by complaining directly to Premier Wen Jiabao that foreign businesses were being unfairly discriminated against. Jürgen Hambrecht, chief executive of BASF, told the Chinese leader that his company was being forced, by the regulations it had to accept in order to set up certain businesses, to transfer technology to China in order to access the China market. "This is not our idea of a partnership," he was quoted as saying. At the same meeting, Peter Loescher, chief executive of Siemens, complained about the uncompetitive advantage given to domestic companies in the awarding of public procurement contracts.

That same month, GE's CEO, Jeffrey Immelt, sparked a p.r. crisis when remarks he made in private about the deteriorating market environment in China were leaked: "I really worry about China ... I am not sure that in the end they want any of us to win or any of us to be successful," he was quoted in the Financial Times as saying to an audience of top Italian executives in Rome.

The American Chamber of Commerce in China has also echoed these concerns. "For the high-tech sector, the ITC industry and industries that are heavily dependent on intellectual property, there is a great concern about the operating environment in the future, because of the regulatory-policy changes and narrowing of market access," says Christian Murck, the organization's president. "Companies say that China remains their top priority for future investment, but of course that future investment will depend on the degree to which there is scope in the market for foreign companies to operate."

The very public airing of grievances has clearly rattled China's leaders, who have made an equally well broadcast show of placating foreign investors in recent days. "China is actively engaged in making a more open and better investment environment for foreign businesses," Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping assured international investors in a speech this week. "We have adjusted our definition of 'indigenous innovation' and confirm that foreign businesses are part of China's manufacturing force."

De Boisséson acknowledges that Beijing is talking a good game, but he cautions that sweet words from the leadership do not always translate into law. "We would like to see concrete steps on the ground that show all China is united around this policy," he says, adding that China can no longer assume that the lure of access to more than a billion potential customers will always trump foreign investors' concerns about the market environment. "If one day conditions are unacceptable for European companies, I suppose they might change their plans," de Boisséson says. "Nothing is there forever.
 

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