BrahMos Cruise Missile

[porky_kicker]

I really don't want to waste my time explaining how different are between the subsystems of air-to-air missile and cruise missile.

So let’s talk about a simple question: how to provide consistent navigation signal.

If you shoot the Brahmos NG from 300km away, the missile will fly 260km before the onboard radar starts working (the maximum distance of missile seeker detection-40km), Even if we use the speed of 3.5 Mach which is around 1200m/s, the missile will need 216.66666 seconds to cross this journey. In the meantime, the enemy AWACS or transporter will move around 38.69km distance at 643km/s cruising speed. So, it is highly likely the enemy is already outside the detecting range of the missile seeker. So, the missile will need external navigation signal to keep itself in the right direction. But the question is who should guide the missile: the fighter jet or your own AWACS. No matter who is doing this job, they will be very vulnerable within this 216 seconds. (In order to provide stable and consistent guiding signal, they can't make extreme maneuver).

I don't want to waste my time explaining

So brahmos NG in air to air ( if implemented ) will solve the your navigational corrundrum the same way the Chinese solved theirs with regard to claimed 300-400 km range PL 15.

As regards to vulnerability of launch platform or awacs I guess the problem will be solved more or less the same way you Chinese will do with regard to PL 15

Capish ? Lolzzzzz

 

[Steven Rogers]

I really don't want to waste my time explaining how different are between the subsystems of air-to-air missile and cruise missile.

So let’s talk about a simple question: how to provide consistent navigation signal.

If you shoot the Brahmos NG from 300km away, the missile will fly 260km before the onboard radar starts working (the maximum distance of missile seeker detection-40km), Even if we use the speed of 3.5 Mach which is around 1200m/s, the missile will need 216.66666 seconds to cross this journey. In the meantime, the enemy AWACS or transporter will move around 38.69km distance at 643km/s cruising speed. So, it is highly likely the enemy is already outside the detecting range of the missile seeker. So, the missile will need external navigation signal to keep itself in the right direction. But the question is who should guide the missile: the fighter jet or your own AWACS. No matter who is doing this job, they will be very vulnerable within this 216 seconds. (In order to provide stable and consistent guiding signal, they can't make extreme maneuver).

You launch an avg a2a missile like k171, the missile will continue to loose kinetic energy and speed once its rocket motor burnsout.

 

[Defcon 1]

I really don't want to waste my time explaining how different are between the subsystems of air-to-air missile and cruise missile.

So let’s talk about a simple question: how to provide consistent navigation signal.

If you shoot the Brahmos NG from 300km away, the missile will fly 260km before the onboard radar starts working (the maximum distance of missile seeker detection-40km), Even if we use the speed of 3.5 Mach which is around 1200m/s, the missile will need 216.66666 seconds to cross this journey. In the meantime, the enemy AWACS or transporter will move around 38.69km distance at 643km/s cruising speed. So, it is highly likely the enemy is already outside the detecting range of the missile seeker. So, the missile will need external navigation signal to keep itself in the right direction. But the question is who should guide the missile: the fighter jet or your own AWACS. No matter who is doing this job, they will be very vulnerable within this 216 seconds. (In order to provide stable and consistent guiding signal, they can't make extreme maneuver).

Brahmos doesn't have datalink for midcourse guidance. It relies on INS. Not sure what are you talking about. Btw, max speed of AMRAAM is also just Mach 4.

 

[no smoking]

Brahmos doesn't have datalink for midcourse guidance. It relies on INS.

Of course Brahmos does have datalink for midcourse guidance. You can choose not to use it but it is there. Every anti-ship missile has that (including Onyx). They can fly by pre-set trajectory, but that will impair the effectiveness. In the battlefield, there may be decoy, false signal, new priority target, etc. It is absolutely necessary function for this kind of missile to update target information in the middle of course. That is why Russians need their nuclear battery satellite carrying heavy radar in attacking the US fleet. But that is another story.


When you are trying to attack a AWACS or transporter, this function becomes more important.

The active radar on board has a limited range (around 40km) and limited angel (around ±45)

So the acquisition area is very limited. Before the missile can activate the its own radar or seeker, it will need at least 200 seconds to get close enough. Any modern plane can flee out of the detection area with that amount of time by manoeuvring. So, you need the midcourse update.

Not sure what are you talking about. Btw, max speed of AMRAAM is also just Mach 4.

The latest AMRAAM range is around 160km which means it only needs 87 seconds to get into on board radar working range. More importantly, they receive midcourse correction.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Of course Brahmos does have datalink for midcourse guidance. You can choose not to use it but it is there. Every anti-ship missile has that (including Onyx). They can fly by pre-set trajectory, but that will impair the effectiveness. In the battlefield, there may be decoy, false signal, new priority target, etc. It is absolutely necessary function for this kind of missile to update target information in the middle of course. That is why Russians need their nuclear battery satellite carrying heavy radar in attacking the US fleet. But that is another story.


When you are trying to attack a AWACS or transporter, this function becomes more important.

The active radar on board has a limited range (around 40km) and limited angel (around ±45)

So the acquisition area is very limited. Before the missile can activate the its own radar or seeker, it will need at least 200 seconds to get close enough. Any modern plane can flee out of the detection area with that amount of time by manoeuvring. So, you need the midcourse update.





The latest AMRAAM range is around 160km which means it only needs 87 seconds to get into on board radar working range. More importantly, they receive midcourse correction.

You need a little correction, amraam dont travel at mach 4 throughout its flight(thats the launch speed) . Once motor burns out, it looses its speed along with its kinetic energy, while the brahmos missile ramjet burns through out its range at a cruise speed of mach 3, while the proposed variant has the cruise speed of mach 3. 5.

 

[sorcerer]

Russia, India to turn BrahMos cruise missile into hypersonic weapon
LANGKAWI, /Malaysia/, March 28. /TASS/. The BrahMos cruise missile will get a maximum speed of Mach 5 during its upgrade to become a hypersonic weapon, Russian Head of the BrahMos Aerospace Russia-India Joint Venture Alexander Maksichev told TASS at the LIMA 2019 arms show in Malaysia on Thursday.



More:
http://tass.com/defense/1050952

 

[no smoking]

You need a little correction, amraam dont travel at mach 4 throughout its flight(thats the launch speed) . Once motor burns out, it looses its speed along with its kinetic energy, while the brahmos missile ramjet burns through out its range at a cruise speed of mach 3, while the proposed variant has the cruise speed of mach 3. 5.

Yes, the speed and kinetic energy are still enough to take care of some low speed target like AWACS and transporters. However, bear this in your mind: AMRAAM or R-77 are only around 150-190kg while Brahmos NG is over 1t. So, basically, a Su-30 can carry up to 12 AAMs including 6 to 8 R-77 while she can carry 3 Brahmos NG at the cost of range and manoeuvrability.

 

[WolfPack86]

Alexander Maksichev, the managing co-director of the BrahMos Aerospace company says range of #BrahMos will be increased to 500 KM and speed will be increased to more than Mach 4.5!

 

[armyofhind]

Yes, the speed and kinetic energy are still enough to take care of some low speed target like AWACS and transporters. However, bear this in your mind: AMRAAM or R-77 are only around 150-190kg while Brahmos NG is over 1t. So, basically, a Su-30 can carry up to 12 AAMs including 6 to 8 R-77 while she can carry 3 Brahmos NG at the cost of range and manoeuvrability.

What kind of dumb logic is this?
Range and Maneuverability is not compromised by the weapons load of the aircraft, this is especially true of the Flanker series, Su-27 onwards.
This kind of same dumb logic was put forth by American analysts, and put right back in their asses by Russian pilots demonstrating the entire gamut of super maneuverability including the famous Cobra maneuver with a full combat load at international air shows.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Yes, the speed and kinetic energy are still enough to take care of some low speed target like AWACS and transporters. However, bear this in your mind: AMRAAM or R-77 are only around 150-190kg while Brahmos NG is over 1t. So, basically, a Su-30 can carry up to 12 AAMs including 6 to 8 R-77 while she can carry 3 Brahmos NG at the cost of range and manoeuvrability.

Yes they are but with brahmos you're talking about the same at double the range you mentioned,and a Su30 can carry 12 aam which are needed to fired in salvo against a big asset ,while the same su can carry 5 Brahmos NG ,and still brahmos has better chances of killing one due to larger seeker ,better eccm ,and sustained speed.

 

[no smoking]

Yes they are but with brahmos you're talking about the same at double the range you mentioned,and a Su30 can carry 12 aam which are needed to fired in salvo against a big asset ,while the same su can carry 5 Brahmos NG ,and still brahmos has better chances of killing one due to larger seeker ,better eccm ,and sustained speed.

Firstly, so far the maximum estimation of Brahmos NG for Su-30 is 3 not 5;
Secondly, you just keep ignoring the most important fact: the biggest challenge for any fighter jet attacking the big plane is not the plane itself but the escorting jet. With 3 Brahmos on board, the Su-30 will be vulnerable facing a pure Air-superiority loading fighter jet. When every one is busy shooting or avoiding air-to-air missile, it is hard to continue guiding the brahmos in 3+ minutes;
Thirdly, keep this in your mind: except the sustainable speed, Brahmos is nowhere coming close to a typical air-to-air missile. The tech level of seeker, on-board computer, structure strength, maneuverability are simply not in the same level.

 

[Immanuel]

Firstly, so far the maximum estimation of Brahmos NG for Su-30 is 3 not 5;
Secondly, you just keep ignoring the most important fact: the biggest challenge for any fighter jet attacking the big plane is not the plane itself but the escorting jet. With 3 Brahmos on board, the Su-30 will be vulnerable facing a pure Air-superiority loading fighter jet. When every one is busy shooting or avoiding air-to-air missile, it is hard to continue guiding the brahmos in 3+ minutes;
Thirdly, keep this in your mind: except the sustainable speed, Brahmos is nowhere coming close to a typical air-to-air missile. The tech level of seeker, on-board computer, structure strength, maneuverability are simply not in the same level.

Silly comment since with Brahmos having a very usable 450km range in Hi-Lo mode from the MKI, they will remain well beyond the reach of counter-air.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Firstly, so far the maximum estimation of Brahmos NG for Su-30 is 3 not 5;
Secondly, you just keep ignoring the most important fact: the biggest challenge for any fighter jet attacking the big plane is not the plane itself but the escorting jet. With 3 Brahmos on board, the Su-30 will be vulnerable facing a pure Air-superiority loading fighter jet. When every one is busy shooting or avoiding air-to-air missile, it is hard to continue guiding the brahmos in 3+ minutes;
Thirdly, keep this in your mind: except the sustainable speed, Brahmos is nowhere coming close to a typical air-to-air missile. The tech level of seeker, on-board computer, structure strength, maneuverability are simply not in the same level.

The matter of fact you keep ignoring aero india 2019,go through the tweets and brochure where it is clearly stated that Su30 will be carrying 5 Brahmos ng,Lca mk1/1a will be carrying 2 brahmos while the rafales will be carrying 3(old brochures and articles).
with 3re or even with 5,in a war zone , squadron flies for an offensive duty and any brahmos armed Sukhoi will be escorted by others Air superiority aircrafts ,no Su or any other aircraft will be carrying Brahmos or other heavy arsenal in a CAP. The latest example of how an offensive mission works is Balakot strike where 2 aircrafts did bombing while the rest escorted the aircraft into the enemy space and latter returning to indian base. Taking out tankers or awacs is one such mission which takes offensive mission.

 

[Immanuel]

The matter of fact you keep ignoring aero india 2019,go through the tweets and brochure where it is clearly stated that Su30 will be carrying 5 Brahmos ng,Lca mk1/1a will be carrying 2 brahmos while the rafales will be carrying 3(old brochures and articles).
with 3re or even with 5,in a war zone , squadron flies for an offensive duty and any brahmos armed Sukhoi will be escorted by others Air superiority aircrafts ,no Su or any other aircraft will be carrying Brahmos or other heavy arsenal in a CAP. The latest example of how an offensive mission works is Balakot strike where 2 aircrafts did bombing while the rest escorted the aircraft into the enemy space and latter returning to indian base. Taking out tankers or awacs is one such mission which takes offensive mission.

Rafale will not carry Brahmos, there is no way this will happen as long as Russia is 49% partner in this venture.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Rafale will not carry Brahmos, there is no way this will happen as long as Russia is 49% partner in this venture.

That's what defences journalists and others say .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ft-brahmos-nuclear-defence/story/1/18157.html

 

[Immanuel]

That's what defences journalists and others say .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailyo.in/lite/variety/rafale-aircraft-brahmos-nuclear-defence/story/1/18157.html

Ill informed folks, Brahmos products will not be allowed for integration on any Western platform.

 

[no smoking]

The matter of fact you keep ignoring aero india 2019,go through the tweets and brochure where it is clearly stated that Su30 will be carrying 5 Brahmos ng,Lca mk1/1a will be carrying 2 brahmos while the rafales will be carrying 3(old brochures and articles).

So far, Russians only said that it is POSSIBLE to carry 5 brahmos with Su30. The reason that it is only POSSIBLE is currently Su-30 only have 3 hardpoints to carry weapons around 1.5tons. Even the latest version – the so called ultimate version - Su-35 still has only 3 such points. It means if you want to add 2 more points on Su30, you need to make a big change to the whole structure, the work load and cost required will be enormous, and it will impair the other flying characters. I doubt anyone would want to go that far.

with 3re or even with 5,in a war zone , squadron flies for an offensive duty and any brahmos armed Sukhoi will be escorted by others Air superiority aircrafts ,no Su or any other aircraft will be carrying Brahmos or other heavy arsenal in a CAP. The latest example of how an offensive mission works is Balakot strike where 2 aircrafts did bombing while the rest escorted the aircraft into the enemy space and latter returning to indian base. Taking out tankers or awacs is one such mission which takes offensive mission.

No, it is different.

Firstly, the Balakot strike is a surprise strike. The whole mission was finished in a short time, the strike planes dropped the bomb and withdraw even before the Pakistan sending their jets. Actually, the escort in this strike is more about preventing being chase by opposite instead of defeating the intercepting;


Secondly, AWACS or tankers are not ground target, they can move and very fast. Once they find Indian jets fly towards, the withdraw instruction can turn to action within seconds. In the Balakot, the targets doesn’t have such kind of link with any air-defence system, the people within the targets will requires minutes if not hours to response;


Thirdly: there is one thing that Balakot strike share with Brahmos attacking AWACS, once the attacking group is exposed too early, they need to terminate the mission, drop the heavy bomb or brahmos and turn to sky fighting. In other words, the original mission is failed. No fighter jet can participate the air fight by carrying 3 1.5ton bomb or missiles.

 

[Kay]

Firstly, so far the maximum estimation of Brahmos NG for Su-30 is 3 not 5;
Secondly, you just keep ignoring the most important fact: the biggest challenge for any fighter jet attacking the big plane is not the plane itself but the escorting jet. With 3 Brahmos on board, the Su-30 will be vulnerable facing a pure Air-superiority loading fighter jet. When every one is busy shooting or avoiding air-to-air missile, it is hard to continue guiding the brahmos in 3+ minutes;
Thirdly, keep this in your mind: except the sustainable speed, Brahmos is nowhere coming close to a typical air-to-air missile. The tech level of seeker, on-board computer, structure strength, maneuverability are simply not in the same level.

This is how and why it may work:

Traditional AWAC killers like Novator K100 and R37 work by inertial navigation followed by mid-course update and finally terminal active radar guidance. The mid-course update is provided by the firing aircraft but the data is provided by a friendly AWAC or ground based radar.
With pods like HATE, secure satellite data links are available to the missile firing aircraft eliminating the need of friendly AWAC.
Brahmos is a large enough missile to have the data link itself, eliminating the need for mid-course update by firing aircraft.

 

[no smoking]

With pods like HATE, secure satellite data links are available to the missile firing aircraft eliminating the need of friendly AWAC.
Brahmos is a large enough missile to have the data link itself, eliminating the need for mid-course update by firing aircraft.

There is a bad news for you: The statellite can't track a flying plane continuously so far. Maybe you have that tech on Mars, but on earth, we won't get there in 20 years.

 

[garg_bharat]

I really don't want to waste my time explaining how different are between the subsystems of air-to-air missile and cruise missile.

So let’s talk about a simple question: how to provide consistent navigation signal.

Such missiles have multiple guidance.