BrahMos Cruise Missile

[Enquirer]

This is the last time I'll attempt to reason with you and indulge your 'whatabouttery'.

I am blind to logic? Fine............. Then what was the logic of not going for Yakhont at the very first place? Since both are same. Right?
Was it for building up a infra in home when India was going through the worst economic phase?
Wouldn't a license production of Yakhont would have been more beneficial for us at the time?

Yakhont is a Russian missile for export purpose and BRAHMOS is a JV with user specification. Now you could go on and say that these all are just words and have no implications. Its upto you and you could consider it as fact and I have no issue with that.

You obviously don't know history well. Brahmos JV was created in the WORST economic crisis of Russia NOT India!! So cash strapped were the Russians at that time, that the initial payment for Brahmos was actually 'releasing' money that India already owed to Russia for a different reason - essentially 'free initiation'!

If you follow the Indian defense news you should know that India always tries to create a JV with a foreign company, improve on the existing design (customize) and then push for domestic production!
Why didn't India buy Su-27 outright? Why didn't Russia induct Su-30MKI?
Why did UAE help to develop F-16 E (most advanced F-16) when USAF was 100% F-16 C? Why didn't USAF induct F-16 E, instead lumbering with less advanced F-16 C?
See parallels?? I am not going into the details of 'operationalizing' a different system when your force is pervasive with another nor do I want to go into the advantages of 'standardization' here!!

Nowhere I disagree with the fact that its range could be increased. My only point is that in its current form it can't cover 450 km range. If it is already capable of covering 450 km, why the changes has been done as reported.
So as of today the missiles in service on in production are not capable of 450 km. Its not just the software part which would increase the range, but some hardware changes too is required.

Now you're trying to muddle the issue.
Who said the extended range missiles are already in service??
All that was discussed was the ease with which range could be extended. It will take several tests & re-qualifications & re-training the personnel & and change in operational doctrine before the extended range missile is deemed as 'in service'.
The initial range restriction would have been been a mix of both software and hardware changes. I am not privy to the exact details but it could have an physical separator for the fuel, a valve that shuts off the fuel etc etc.
But it's pretty obvious that the range-reverting would not require 'new engine' as you're suggesting!!

Can't believe you're still arguing on this after I cited the example of Oniks/Yakhont - same missile system with two diff ranges!

What is WRONG with you???

1ship of Gorshkov class frigate is slated to enter service later this year. The news I shared is a speculation doing round.

New Russian frigate may be fitted with BrahMos cruise missiles

https://sputniknews.com/russia/20080620111481295/

This is 2008 article which started it.

How New Admiral-Series Super-Frigates Will Help Project Russian Naval Power

https://sputniknews.com/military/201802171061765871-project-22350-series-frigates-analysis/

This is the latest news which clearly mentions Onyx instead of BRAHMOS on it.



https://flot.com/nowadays/strength/surfaceships/admiral-gorshkov/

So you see, till now Russians have not gone with BRAHMOS and its Onyx all way in their first ship. May be they could go for BRAHMOS-ER on later numbers post we start manufacturing them.

So you're withdrawing your own citation! I thought you cited Gorshkov to prove what a world of difference it is to go from 2.5 mach to 2.8 mach that Russians are tripping over to induct it!!

BTW, you just don't get extra thrust by simply reducing the diameter of the RAMJET engine. With every increment of pressure on one end, you have to take into account the pressure buildup on other end too along with sustainer functionality.

You're an absolute novice at physics!!!
We were talking about differences in speeds (2.5 vs 2.8 mach!). If thrust remains the SAME, but drag reduces (due to narrower body), then why wouldn't the speed increase???
The fact that I had to explain this simple thing tells me that this should be the last line I write!

 

[Chinmoy]

This is the last time I'll attempt to reason with you and indulge your 'whatabouttery'.



You obviously don't know history well. Brahmos JV was created in the WORST economic crisis of Russia NOT India!! So cash strapped were the Russians at that time, that the initial payment for Brahmos was actually 'releasing' money that India already owed to Russia for a different reason - essentially 'free initiation'!

If you follow the Indian defense news you should know that India always tries to create a JV with a foreign company, improve on the existing design (customize) and then push for domestic production!
Why didn't India buy Su-27 outright? Why didn't Russia induct Su-30MKI?
Why did UAE help to develop F-16 E (most advanced F-16) when USAF was 100% F-16 C? Why didn't USAF induct F-16 E, instead lumbering with less advanced F-16 C?
See parallels?? I am not going into the details of 'operationalizing' a different system when your force is pervasive with another nor do I want to go into the advantages of 'standardization' here!!



Now you're trying to muddle the issue.
Who said the extended range missiles are already in service??
All that was discussed was the ease with which range could be extended. It will take several tests & re-qualifications & re-training the personnel & and change in operational doctrine before the extended range missile is deemed as 'in service'.
The initial range restriction would have been been a mix of both software and hardware changes. I am not privy to the exact details but it could have an physical separator for the fuel, a valve that shuts off the fuel etc etc.
But it's pretty obvious that the range-reverting would not require 'new engine' as you're suggesting!!

Can't believe you're still arguing on this after I cited the example of Oniks/Yakhont - same missile system with two diff ranges!

What is WRONG with you???


So you're withdrawing your own citation! I thought you cited Gorshkov to prove what a world of difference it is to go from 2.5 mach to 2.8 mach that Russians are tripping over to induct it!!



You're an absolute novice at physics!!!
We were talking about differences in speeds (2.5 vs 2.8 mach!). If thrust remains the SAME, but drag reduces (due to narrower body), then why wouldn't the speed increase???
The fact that I had to explain this simple thing tells me that this should be the last line I write!

Ok.... Let me quote few of the last discussions.

All I said that at its current form, BRAHMOS can't cover the alleged 400 or 450 km distance as some members are quoting.

This is what I said. Quiet practical.

Now lets see what you dreamt off and quoted here

I think it's misquoted. Most tests were conducted at 450kms range (not 415 as stated in this article)

Times is saying that a the range of newer & lighter (NG) version of Brahmos (that's on drawing board) could be increased from 300kms to 415kms. This version of the statement sounds more logical than what IndianExpress is quoting! Brahmos/SudhirMishra is already of record for stating (last year itself) that several tests have already been conducted for ranges beyond 450kms ! & that a project is currently underway to increase the range to 800kms (in two years from the time of statement!).

Most Tests?? Several tests???? Really??? Where from you are quoting the underlined part?

Not sure what you mean by 'current form'. But older Brahmos has been 'upgraded' (with fuel & config changes) and has been tested multiple times up to 450 kms - this is official statements coming from MoD, Brahmos, DRDO...

By current form means the ones which we have deployed are those which are in various stage of production. Which part of this have you not understood.

Totally incorrect!
You're saying 'massive' changes would be required for range extension! But the reality is Brahmos was designed/built as a longer range 500+ kms missile, and was 'superficially' altered to restrict its range to 290 in orer to comply with MTCR!
What was being done was to remove the 'superficial' alteration to exploit the full potential of the missile range that it possessed inherently.
Simple proof is that fact Yakhont, Bastion etc all belong to the same missile family as Brahmos - similar size, weight etc & they all have 600kms range!

What do you meant by the underlined part?

Now coming to present post. From 1990 to 2000 we had 6 PMs. Now a novice could also guess what mess we were in at that time. Even you mentioned how messed up was Russian economy at that time. So rather then a JV, a simple license production would have been a cheap alternative for both.

@Kshithij ........... Brahmos was conceived and worked upon from 1994, not 1998. It was not build in 2 years.

In 1993, Kalam contacted his old friend Efremov and held talks with the head of the Russian state committee for the defence industry with the proposal to set up a joint venture in participation with NPO Mashinostroyeniye for development of guided anti-ship missiles. Kalam and Efrimov signed the memorandum of intent and protocol in 1994 to go ahead with the project. The agreement was signed in 1998 to develop, manufacture and sell anti-ship missiles.Kalam was also the brain behind India’s ‘Agni’ and ‘Prithvi’ series of missiles, and the impetus and inspiration behind research, development and implementation of coordinated defence projects.

https://www.rbth.com/arts/2015/07/29/kalam_symbol_of_indo-russian_friendship_44489

BTW.. this must be a news for you. It is doing round for few days.

I just shared the news which was doing round against your Chinese and Paki logic of why Russians are not using BRAHMOS if its a better missile. I no where implied that they decided to induct it. If so point it out.

Now coming to drag experience on both Oniks and Brahmos, you mean that a missile with smaller dimension would experience less drag and hence would be faster. Right?

Now diameter of Oniks is 0.67 meter.

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/p800_oniks.htm

Diameter of BRAHMOS is 0.7 meter

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/brahmos.htm

Now I wonder which one is diametrically smaller and should have been faster.

 

[Bhurki]

Brahmos was a concieved to acquire a cruise missile that could bypass MTCR.. That was the main objective.. It was essentially a stop gap measure which was suppossed to a evolve into various projects.. But just like with everything else in DPSU .. Time was not considered a constraint.. For what its worth, i'm sure it has more efficient targeting system and propulsion as compared to Oniks just because it was concieved in a later period

Although i do agree now that India is signatory to MTCR .. It should acquire something like the p800 ...
The range that brahmos is alleged to have 300 kms is in high altitude flight pattern.. Which would make it just as easy to be intercepted as a subsonic missile head on.
Also due to its speed it might be less efficient than a subsonic missile at re acquiring the target in case target deployes countermeasures..
The real threat that brahmos can cause is when it sticks low and pops over the horizon allowing only 20-30 seconds to be intercepted.. But the range in low alti profile is way too low at 120 km..

 

[rishivashista13]

Pakistan may buy Chinese supersonic missile 'better' than India's BrahMos

Pakistan might buy a supersonic missile successfully test-fired by China which is said to be cost-effective and better than the BrahMos ..................
http://zeenews.india.com/world/paki...ssile-better-than-indias-brahmos-2149113.html

Now, Media decleared Chinese immature, new born, under development "HD 1 missile" better then BrahMos missile system.......

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[Hari Sud]

Pakistan may buy Chinese supersonic missile 'better' than India's BrahMos

Pakistan might buy a supersonic missile successfully test-fired by China which is said to be cost-effective and better than the BrahMos ..................
http://zeenews.india.com/world/paki...ssile-better-than-indias-brahmos-2149113.html

Now, Media decleared Chinese immature, new born, under development "HD 1 missile" better then BrahMos missile system.......

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

Chinese claim much more than what they can deliver.

 

[Immanuel]

Brahmos is an Indian version of the Onyx and not the Yakhont. The true speed of Brahmos is above mach 3.0 based on information from sources who work in the missile telemetry monitoring team. Pre MTCR signing that range was restricted to 290km with software locks. Post MTCR the missile is essentially the same range as the Onix i.e 600km in Hi-Hi-Lo mode i.e around 450 km in Hi-Lo-Lo. It's true V max varies a bit depending on altitude, air density

ER version will feature, newer more explosive fuel, a newer warhead with a newer far more powerful explosive. Going to 800km+ range indeed needs structural upgrades and we can expect a test within this quarter or next one.

 

[Spectre]

Simple question guys,
1. Does the Indian navy have a truck mounted TEL launched Brahmos variant (for deployment on islands)
2. Can the Brahmos be fed targeting info by a sensor other than that mounted on the launch platform IN FLIGHT?

Thank you

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Simple question guys,
1. Does the Indian navy have a truck mounted TEL launched Brahmos variant (for deployment on islands)
2. Can the Brahmos be fed targeting info by a sensor other than that mounted on the launch platform IN FLIGHT?

Thank you

Islands are not controlled solely by navy. Islands have air bases as well as army bases. All three forces have their own jurisdiction on the islands and also have their own assets.

India has confirmed that it has Brahmos TEL deployed in NE areas. This shows that India has TEL launch capability for Brahmos. Having these on islands is also a possibility as shown by India testing Brahmos from Andaman & Nicobar islands some time back. It is however, not necessary that the Brahmos on the islands is controlled by Navy

 

[Chinmoy]

Simple question guys,
1. Does the Indian navy have a truck mounted TEL launched Brahmos variant (for deployment on islands)
2. Can the Brahmos be fed targeting info by a sensor other than that mounted on the launch platform IN FLIGHT?

Thank you

1. Yes... We have BRAHMOS TEL.

2. BRAHMOS does have mid flight updation capability. But what you are suggesting is of Net centric warfare scenario. We have to travel a lot for that capability and speed of BRAHMOS too would make it hard for any targeting platform to cue it on target with help of LASER POD or anything like that.

 

[cobra commando]

India exploring sale of BrahMos cruise missile to Indonesia

 

[uoftotaku]

They can "explore" but actual sale is impossible as Russians are able to undercut with their own Yakhont/Bastion systems. BrahMos they are able to dictate cost of License Fees and various imported Russian components. They can also veto exports based on their share of IP.

 

[indiatester]

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...-next-generation-brahmos-ng-missiles/1512331/
More firepower for IAF against China, Pakistan! Sukhoi-30 MKIs to get 5 next generation BrahMos NG missiles
By: Smriti Jain | Published: March 11, 2019 4:19 PM
Indian Air Force to get unprecedented combat power with the next generation BrahMos missile! The next-generation BrahMos NG missile will meet the future requirement of the IAF.

The BrahMos NG will first be integrated on India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. (Image of BrahMos NG on Tejas)
Indian Air Force (IAF) to get unprecedented combat power with the next generation BrahMos missile! A new lighter version of the BrahMos, world’s fastest anti-ship cruise missile, is set to be integrated on IAF’s frontline fighter jet, the Sukhoi 30-MKI. Financial Express Online learns that the next-generation missile, also called the BrahMos NG, will meet the future requirement of the IAF and serve to be a formidable deterrent for both Pakistan and China. BrahMos NG is a lighter version of the original missile which was developed jointly by India and Russia.

The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile with a range of 300 kms and speed of 2.9 mach has already been successfully integrated and test-fired from an IAF Sukhoi-30 MKI. However, given the fact that BrahMos NG will be a lighter version of the lethal missile, India plans to integrate up to 5 such next-generation missiles on the frontline fighter jet, giving the country unmatched fire power.

The BrahMos NG will first be integrated on India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Subsequently, up to 5 BrahMos NG missiles will be fitted on the Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter jets of IAF. At Aero India 2019, BrahMos Aerospace displaced a model of the LCA Tejas with two BrahMos NG missiles integrated under its wings. The maximum speed of the BrahMos NG missile will be 3.5 mach.

Speaking to Financial Express Online, Dr Sudhir Mishra the CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace said, “The new BrahMos NG missiles will provide future-ready air dominance to the Indian Air Force. The design and development of the BrahMos NG is being done by the DRDO.” “While some technology will come from Russia, since the BrahMos is an Indo-Russian Joint venture, the new BrahMos NG will large be a Make in India product,” Mishra told Financial Express Online at Aero India 2019. According to the BrahMos Aerospace CEO & MD, the cost of the new BrahMos will be half that of the existing missile.

How will a lighter BrahMos help? There is a weight limitation for integrating BrahMos on the LCA Tejas. According to Mishra, only 1,250 kg can be adjusted under the wings of Tejas including the launcher. “There is also a limitation of space with the landing and take off to be taken into consideration…so the mathematics modeling was carried out and the system was studied. Finally we decided to develop a lighter BrahMos with a range of 300 kms,” Mishra told Financial Express Online.

Mishra is positive that the new BrahMos NG missile will provide India formidable air-to-air precision strike capability. BrahMos NG when fired from Tejas and Sukhoi-30 MKI will attack the “radar in the air” capability of the enemy. It is being developed with the aim to take down the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System), refuelling and transport aircraft of the enemy. With a 300-km range, the BrahMos NG will give India BVR (Beyond Visual Range) firing capability. According to Mishra, BrahMos NG like its predecessor, will be a multi-platform missile with the capability of being fired from submarines and torpedo tubes as well.

 

[bhramos]

also it was also stated that #Brahmos has the capability to hit #AWACS , #AEW&C and #Tankers in the air. Now that is a good secondary capability and surprised me to no end.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...-next-generation-brahmos-ng-missiles/1512331/
More firepower for IAF against China, Pakistan! Sukhoi-30 MKIs to get 5 next generation BrahMos NG missiles
By: Smriti Jain | Published: March 11, 2019 4:19 PM
Indian Air Force to get unprecedented combat power with the next generation BrahMos missile! The next-generation BrahMos NG missile will meet the future requirement of the IAF.

The BrahMos NG will first be integrated on India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. (Image of BrahMos NG on Tejas)
Indian Air Force (IAF) to get unprecedented combat power with the next generation BrahMos missile! A new lighter version of the BrahMos, world’s fastest anti-ship cruise missile, is set to be integrated on IAF’s frontline fighter jet, the Sukhoi 30-MKI. Financial Express Online learns that the next-generation missile, also called the BrahMos NG, will meet the future requirement of the IAF and serve to be a formidable deterrent for both Pakistan and China. BrahMos NG is a lighter version of the original missile which was developed jointly by India and Russia.

The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile with a range of 300 kms and speed of 2.9 mach has already been successfully integrated and test-fired from an IAF Sukhoi-30 MKI. However, given the fact that BrahMos NG will be a lighter version of the lethal missile, India plans to integrate up to 5 such next-generation missiles on the frontline fighter jet, giving the country unmatched fire power.

The BrahMos NG will first be integrated on India’s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Subsequently, up to 5 BrahMos NG missiles will be fitted on the Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter jets of IAF. At Aero India 2019, BrahMos Aerospace displaced a model of the LCA Tejas with two BrahMos NG missiles integrated under its wings. The maximum speed of the BrahMos NG missile will be 3.5 mach.

Speaking to Financial Express Online, Dr Sudhir Mishra the CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace said, “The new BrahMos NG missiles will provide future-ready air dominance to the Indian Air Force. The design and development of the BrahMos NG is being done by the DRDO.” “While some technology will come from Russia, since the BrahMos is an Indo-Russian Joint venture, the new BrahMos NG will large be a Make in India product,” Mishra told Financial Express Online at Aero India 2019. According to the BrahMos Aerospace CEO & MD, the cost of the new BrahMos will be half that of the existing missile.

How will a lighter BrahMos help? There is a weight limitation for integrating BrahMos on the LCA Tejas. According to Mishra, only 1,250 kg can be adjusted under the wings of Tejas including the launcher. “There is also a limitation of space with the landing and take off to be taken into consideration…so the mathematics modeling was carried out and the system was studied. Finally we decided to develop a lighter BrahMos with a range of 300 kms,” Mishra told Financial Express Online.

Mishra is positive that the new BrahMos NG missile will provide India formidable air-to-air precision strike capability. BrahMos NG when fired from Tejas and Sukhoi-30 MKI will attack the “radar in the air” capability of the enemy. It is being developed with the aim to take down the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System), refuelling and transport aircraft of the enemy. With a 300-km range, the BrahMos NG will give India BVR (Beyond Visual Range) firing capability. According to Mishra, BrahMos NG like its predecessor, will be a multi-platform missile with the capability of being fired from submarines and torpedo tubes as well.

Brahmos NG shall be so mobile that India will be able to use it against big planes line AWACS killer role as well.

 

[sorcerer]

BrahMos in demand! Chile eyes Indo-Russian missile; big interest for ship and shore-based platforms

India’s BrahMos missile for Chile! The armed forces of Chile have reached out to India and expressed their interest in buying the buying the BrahMos missile a joint venture of India-Russia. BrahMos Company is already registered with Chilean Armed Forces, which is mandatory requirement for any company to export system to Chile. However, as per the law of that country for any negotiations, the company has to register itself with all the three services. President Ramnath Kovind is going to visit the country soon and during discussions with his counterpart President Sebastián Piñera, defence cooperation, will be one of the topics of discussions between the two sides.

Sources told Financial Express Online that “There has been lot of interest for ship and shore-based platforms. With its reduced size BrahMos NG (Next Generation) can be accommodated in a number of sea and air platforms.” The South American nation has expressed interest in the coastal, naval as well as air version of the missile. It has expressed interest in mobile autonomous launchers for coastal defence batteries, ship-based weapons complex for submarines and frigates.

The Chilean Air Force had reached out soon after the successful trials of the BrahMos missile aboard the SU-30. Developed at a low budget of $300 million, the missile system has caught the attention of a number of countries in the Latin America including Argentina, Venezuela, Chile and Brazil. According to diplomatic sources, besides the missile system, there is a huge opportunity for Indian defence companies to participate in modernisation of the Chilean armed forces. Chiefs of the armed forces from both sides talked about exploiting the potential in shipbuilding, radar systems, submarines and joint training.

The agreement between India and Russia for development of the advanced BrahMos system allows the use of the missile in both countries’ armed forces and export to other friendly countries. In an earlier interaction, Anantoly Punchuk, Deputy Director FSMTC, said that the joint Indo-Russian venture was established back in 1998 BrahMos and has been successfully producing and testing missiles.

According to him the venture is a real “precious gem” in the defence cooperation between the two countries. BrahMos missile complexes are supplied to the Indian Army and manufactured in series. The Joint Venture (JV) is also testing new types of missiles, namely airborne-based, underwater deployment, missiles with increase range, hypersonic experimental as well as supersonic all-purpose missile. And this success is equally shared by both India and Russia.

The BrahMos missile, indeed, has a good export capacity. “Under the Inter-governmental Agreement (IGA) signed in 1998 the issue of exporting to a third country is decided jointly by Russia and India when there is a request from a specific country and after passing the necessary intergovernmental procedures in both countries,” Punchuk said.

Also, as reported earlier there is a great opportunity for Indian defence companies to participate in the modernisation of Chilean armed forces, especially in the ship building, submarines and joint training.

BrahMos Missile is a short-range ramjet supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land. It is a joint venture between Russia’s NPO Mashinostroeyenia and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) of India leading to the formation of BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited. On the other hand, weighing 1.4-1.6 tonne and length of 6 metre, the BrahMos-NG (next generation) is a breakthrough, meeting requirements of both the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force. The Brahmos NG – will also be integrated with the Su 30 MKI fighter aircraft.


https://www.financialexpress.com/de...t-for-ship-and-shore-based-platforms/1524231/

 

[no smoking]

Brahmos NG shall be so mobile that India will be able to use it against big planes line AWACS killer role as well.

Using a cruise missile under 3 mach to attack a flying plane? India must get some techs from Mars.

 

[Defcon 1]

Using a cruise missile under 3 mach to attack a flying plane? India must get some techs from Mars.

The suggestion is to use it as a long range AWACS or transport aircraft killer, not to be used against fighters.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Using a cruise missile under 3 mach to attack a flying plane? India must get some techs from Mars.

Mach 3.5, 'sustained' longer than rocketmotor propulsion.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Using a cruise missile under 3 mach to attack a flying plane? India must get some techs from Mars.

This is said by Brahmos designers and not my wishful thinking. Your problem is that you read less and assume too much.

 

[no smoking]

The suggestion is to use it as a long range AWACS or transport aircraft killer, not to be used against fighters.

I really don't want to waste my time explaining how different are between the subsystems of air-to-air missile and cruise missile.

So let’s talk about a simple question: how to provide consistent navigation signal.

If you shoot the Brahmos NG from 300km away, the missile will fly 260km before the onboard radar starts working (the maximum distance of missile seeker detection-40km), Even if we use the speed of 3.5 Mach which is around 1200m/s, the missile will need 216.66666 seconds to cross this journey. In the meantime, the enemy AWACS or transporter will move around 38.69km distance at 643km/s cruising speed. So, it is highly likely the enemy is already outside the detecting range of the missile seeker. So, the missile will need external navigation signal to keep itself in the right direction. But the question is who should guide the missile: the fighter jet or your own AWACS. No matter who is doing this job, they will be very vulnerable within this 216 seconds. (In order to provide stable and consistent guiding signal, they can't make extreme maneuver).