BrahMos Cruise Missile

[Enquirer]

All I said that at its current form, BRAHMOS can't cover the alleged 400 or 450 km distance as some members are quoting.

BRAHMOS-ER been tested only once till now.

415 km might be an odd number, but it might also be the exact distance of BRAHMOS-ER test.

Not sure what you mean by 'current form'. But older Brahmos has been 'upgraded' (with fuel & config changes) and has been tested multiple times up to 450 kms - this is official statements coming from MoD, Brahmos, DRDO...

 

[Prashant12]

Life extension test of world class supersonic cruise #missile #BrahMos conducted successffully from a defence base off #Odisha coast amidst inclement weather proving it one of the best all-weather weapon systems.

 

[Chinmoy]

Not sure what you mean by 'current form'. But older Brahmos has been 'upgraded' (with fuel & config changes) and has been tested multiple times up to 450 kms - this is official statements coming from MoD, Brahmos, DRDO...

That is what I meant............... No range upgradation as of now for BRAHMOS. As already told my DRDO chief that it requires just a software upgrade, even that is easier said then done with deployed systems.

Moreover in upcoming regiments too, cost of such a system plays role. Software upgradation in itself and designing a new chipset for that would incur cost. As of now no new regiment has been ordered. We could ofcourse see the ER-BRAHMOS once the new regiment has been ordered or the current systems are upgraded. But then again there would be cost difference.

Moreover as I already mentioned, it is not just about software upgrade. To keep performance intact, you need some physical upgradation too. Moreover more impetus is now on life extension then range it seems. We have two back to back test for life extension, but just once in range extension. If it would have been as easy as software upgrade, we could have seen atleast a couple of more long range test by now,

 

[Enquirer]

That is what I meant............... No range upgradation as of now for BRAHMOS. As already told my DRDO chief that it requires just a software upgrade, even that is easier said then done with deployed systems.

Moreover in upcoming regiments too, cost of such a system plays role. Software upgradation in itself and designing a new chipset for that would incur cost. As of now no new regiment has been ordered. We could ofcourse see the ER-BRAHMOS once the new regiment has been ordered or the current systems are upgraded. But then again there would be cost difference.

Moreover as I already mentioned, it is not just about software upgrade. To keep performance intact, you need some physical upgradation too. Moreover more impetus is now on life extension then range it seems. We have two back to back test for life extension, but just once in range extension. If it would have been as easy as software upgrade, we could have seen atleast a couple of more long range test by now,

Totally incorrect!
You're saying 'massive' changes would be required for range extension! But the reality is Brahmos was designed/built as a longer range 500+ kms missile, and was 'superficially' altered to restrict its range to 290 in orer to comply with MTCR!
What was being done was to remove the 'superficial' alteration to exploit the full potential of the missile range that it possessed inherently.
Simple proof is that fact Yakhont, Bastion etc all belong to the same missile family as Brahmos - similar size, weight etc & they all have 600kms range!

 

[Chinmoy]

Totally incorrect!
You're saying 'massive' changes would be required for range extension! But the reality is Brahmos was designed/built as a longer range 500+ kms missile, and was 'superficially' altered to restrict its range to 290 in orer to comply with MTCR!
What was being done was to remove the 'superficial' alteration to exploit the full potential of the missile range that it possessed inherently.
Simple proof is that fact Yakhont, Bastion etc all belong to the same missile family as Brahmos - similar size, weight etc & they all have 600kms range!

Just few questions................ When Yakhont, Bastion et al are of same class, then why BRAHMOS is stated to be class apart from these missiles? Why BRAHMOS is termed as THE fastest cruise missile and not as ONE OF THE fastest cruise missile?

 

[Enquirer]

Just few questions................ When Yakhont, Bastion et al are of same class, then why BRAHMOS is stated to be class apart from these missiles? Why BRAHMOS is termed as THE fastest cruise missile and not as ONE OF THE fastest cruise missile?

Firstly the phrase "one of the fastest cruise missiles" makes no logical or grammatical sense - perhaps that's one of the reason no one says that?
Much of hype about Brahmos is ALL generated within India - fanboys, media, military etc. Mostly because for decades Brahmos was the most advanced missile/weapon system within India!
Technically speaking Yakhont, Bastion & Brahmos are different versions of similar system - Brahmos being the latest (and with Indian input) - as such is lighter (by a very small margin) & probably faster (by a very small margin).

Did you know that Russian military has NO BRAHMOS in its arsenal?? That should suggest that Brahmos is not that significantly different or significantly more advanced than other similar systems!

Vietnam is not dying to buy Brahmos (there may be interest) - because they already have similar missiles in their arsenal (irrespective of what fanboys & clueless media has you believe)

When Su-30MKI was inducted in IAF, for years there was buzz in India that it is THE MOST ADVANCED INDUCTED aircraft in ANY AIRFORCE IN THE WORLD!!! Even though it's just further customization/improvement of Su-27 for Indian operations. Russian Airforce didn't order a single Su-30MKI configuration. Much later Su-30MK (without 'I') got exported to few southeast countries!!!

All said and done, your questions are completely unrelated to the issue under discussion - level of effort required to increase Brahmos range.

 

[Chinmoy]

Firstly the phrase "one of the fastest cruise missiles" makes no logical or grammatical sense - perhaps that's one of the reason no one says that?
Much of hype about Brahmos is ALL generated within India - fanboys, media, military etc. Mostly because for decades Brahmos was the most advanced missile/weapon system within India!
Technically speaking Yakhont, Bastion & Brahmos are different versions of similar system - Brahmos being the latest (and with Indian input) - as such is lighter (by a very small margin) & probably faster (by a very small margin).

Did you know that Russian military has NO BRAHMOS in its arsenal?? That should suggest that Brahmos is not that significantly different or significantly more advanced than other similar systems!

Vietnam is not dying to buy Brahmos (there may be interest) - because they already have similar missiles in their arsenal (irrespective of what fanboys & clueless media has you believe)

When Su-30MKI was inducted in IAF, for years there was buzz in India that it is THE MOST ADVANCED INDUCTED aircraft in ANY AIRFORCE IN THE WORLD!!! Even though it's just further customization/improvement of Su-27 for Indian operations. Russian Airforce didn't order a single Su-30MKI configuration. Much later Su-30MK (without 'I') got exported to few southeast countries!!!

All said and done, your questions are completely unrelated to the issue under discussion - level of effort required to increase Brahmos range.

Let me tell you the basic difference in between BRAHMOS and Oniks. Speed.

Its not Indian fanboys who have came up with the Mach 2.8 speed of BRAHMOS or 2.5 Mach of Oniks. And moreover BRAHMOS maintains its speed throughout the cruise phase and at all altitude unlike Oniks.

Flight speed varying over the range from M=2.0 to M=2.5 is provided by the kerosene-fueled multi-mode liquid-fuel ramjet.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ss-n-26.htm

The missile can fly at 2.8 times the speed of sound.

Its unmatchable speed is its high point.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/brahmos.htm

Now this .3 Mach difference means around 350kmph speed difference in both. How you think this has been achieved?

Now coming to point on why Russians prefer Oniks rather then BRAHMOS in there fleet? The Answer is simple, RANGE. Oniks although slower then BRAHMOS has a longer range and Russians like Americans and others want range. BRAHMOS is something which we had to content with. But what we lost at range has been compensated by speed. Even the Russians who had designed the engine knew the fact that with that speed, achieving the range of Oniks is not going to be possible given the limitation of RAMJET. We all know that RAMJET is also known as flying stove and what a gas guzzler it is.

BTW.. this must be a news for you. It is doing round for few days.

Gorshkov is the only Russian combat ship to be equipped with BrahMos missiles. BrahMos is a supersonic cruise missile developed by the BrahMos Aerospace, a collaboration between Russia and India.

The missile has a range of 180 miles (290km) and is capable of carrying a conventional warhead of up to 660lb.

Ground and sea targets can be successfully hit by the missile while travelling at an altitude as low as ten metres (30ft) and at a speed of Mach 2.8, three times faster than the US-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile. The Russian Navy plans to equip the ship with six BrahMos missiles.

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/admiral-gorshkov/

Now coming back to range enhancement of BRAHMOS, in its current form by the required software modification we might increase its range, but would it still remain a Mach 2.8 missile?
Are we ready to compromise on its speed for range?

 

[Kshithij]

Now coming back to range enhancement of BRAHMOS, in its current form by the required software modification we might increase its range, but would it still remain a Mach 2.8 missile?
Are we ready to compromise on its speed for range?

Brahmos weighs 3tons and its range of 450km is not surprising. I don't understand why you want to insist on 300km range at 2.8Mach? The 300km range was made to pass MTCR restrictions, not due to limitation of Brahmos RAMJET.

The sea skimming range of Brahmos is low at about 200-250km or so due to high air density at the bottom and the high moisture content of tropical seas which reduce the efficiency of fuel. It is only at a height of 100m that Brahmos can fly 450km.

Oniks can travel 600km distance, not 450km. So, the software change was just a drama. India already had 450km missile but was hiding it as Russia was under pressure not to give it to India if it violated MTCR. Brahmos range is less than Oniks due to 2.8Mach speed which means 0.97km/s whereas Oniks has 0.87km/s. So, the drag will be high but not too high. The difference in range of 30% is the question here. If the range difference was just 15-20%, it was understandable but 30% is a surprise

 

[Chinmoy]

Brahmos weighs 3tons and its range of 450km is not surprising. I don't understand why you want to insist on 300km range at 2.8Mach? The 300km range was made to pass MTCR restrictions, not due to limitation of Brahmos RAMJET.

The sea skimming range of Brahmos is low at about 200-250km or so due to high air density at the bottom and the high moisture content of tropical seas which reduce the efficiency of fuel. It is only at a height of 100m that Brahmos can fly 450km.

Oniks can travel 600km distance, not 450km. So, the software change was just a drama. India already had 450km missile but was hiding it as Russia was under pressure not to give it to India if it violated MTCR. Brahmos range is less than Oniks due to 2.8Mach speed which means 0.97km/s whereas Oniks has 0.87km/s. So, the drag will be high but not too high. The difference in range of 30% is the question here. If the range difference was just 15-20%, it was understandable but 30% is a surprise

Simple question................ Just tell me how you achieve 2.8 mach speed with the same engine and fuel used in Oniks?

 

[Kshithij]

Simple question................ Just tell me how you achieve 2.8 mach speed with the same engine and fuel used in Oniks?

That is anyone's guess. I can't be sure. It is possible that the Brahmos engine is modified to have bigger nozzle to eject more fuel. It is not sure if the engine in Brahmos and Oniks are identical

 

[Chinmoy]

That is anyone's guess. I can't be sure. It is possible that the Brahmos engine is modified to have bigger nozzle to eject more fuel. It is not sure if the engine in Brahmos and Oniks are identical

Not eject, but to burn more fuel for higher thrust.

Now if the engine of both missiles are different and BRAHMOS has been providing higher thrust, why not Russians adopt it for Oniks?

Now since we are a part of MTCR for nearly 2 years, why instead of testing a long range BRAHMOS we have tested a life extension version of it back to back? A minor software change is much easier then overhauling of structure and mechanics I believe?

 

[Kshithij]

Not eject, but to burn more fuel for higher thrust.

Now if the engine of both missiles are different and BRAHMOS has been providing higher thrust, why not Russians adopt it for Oniks?

Now since we are a part of MTCR for nearly 2 years, why instead of testing a long range BRAHMOS we have tested a life extension version of it back to back? A minor software change is much easier then overhauling of structure and mechanics I believe?

Software change was a scam. India immediately after MTCR tested Brahmos for 450km and air to ground one for 415km a year later. Why would India deliberately have software which reduces range instead of simply not decaring ability and maintaining silence?

Also, Brahmos is a liquid fuel missile. It will require fuel change every 10 years and hence may have been going overhauling and hence life extension.

 

[Chinmoy]

Software change was a scam. India immediately after MTCR tested Brahmos for 450km and air to ground one for 415km a year later. Why would India deliberately have software which reduces range instead of simply not decaring ability and maintaining silence?

Also, Brahmos is a liquid fuel missile. It will require fuel change every 10 years and hence may have been going overhauling and hence life extension.

Lets talk about air launched version.

Every missile has something called Time of Flight. In case of Brahmos land or sea version, this could be divided in 3 parts. Altitude gaining, Altitude maintaining and terminal phase. Now the booster in Brahmos unlike that in Shaurya just provide boost to attain the Supersonic speed instead of altitude. For altitude gain, it would have to use its RAMJET only.
But in case of a Air launched version, the first phase is already taken care by the launched platform. Now the maximum distance covered by a cruise missile is in its cruise phase which is the 2nd stage of flight for land launched version and 1st stage for air launched version.
Now the maximum time of flight a CM would pass during this stage, the longer would be its range, and another factor being the altitude. As we all know that a High altitude flight would have a longer range then a low altitude flight.
So you see that these factors alone is sufficient for a increased range of BRAHMOS ALCM. I am not even taking into factor the glide distance and boost phase distance coverage.

Now coming into BRAHMOS-ER, I don't deny the fact that we have tested it. But that was a development test, not user. Now if in its current form itself BRAHMOS is capable of 450 km flight, why we are not undertaking a user trial or two?

 

[Kshithij]

Lets talk about air launched version.

Every missile has something called Time of Flight. In case of Brahmos land or sea version, this could be divided in 3 parts. Altitude gaining, Altitude maintaining and terminal phase. Now the booster in Brahmos unlike that in Shaurya just provide boost to attain the Supersonic speed instead of altitude. For altitude gain, it would have to use its RAMJET only.
But in case of a Air launched version, the first phase is already taken care by the launched platform. Now the maximum distance covered by a cruise missile is in its cruise phase which is the 2nd stage of flight for land launched version and 1st stage for air launched version.
Now the maximum time of flight a CM would pass during this stage, the longer would be its range, and another factor being the altitude. As we all know that a High altitude flight would have a longer range then a low altitude flight.
So you see that these factors alone is sufficient for a increased range of BRAHMOS ALCM. I am not even taking into factor the glide distance and boost phase distance coverage.

Now coming into BRAHMOS-ER, I don't deny the fact that we have tested it. But that was a development test, not user. Now if in its current form itself BRAHMOS is capable of 450 km flight, why we are not undertaking a user trial or two?

Brahmos test was a user test. There was no developmental test of Brahmos recently. The ALCM may have altitude advantage but it weighs 2.5tons and does not have booster. The important thing about booster is that its weight is almost fully fuel and the loss of about 400kg of fuel is more than enough to offset the advantage of altitude. The booster is launched upwards, not front facing. So, it does carry the missile upwards if needed. Booster also adds to the range as it takes a minute or so to separate and by then the distance traveled would have been around 30km.

 

[Chinmoy]

Brahmos test was a user test. There was no developmental test of Brahmos recently. The ALCM may have altitude advantage but it weighs 2.5tons and does not have booster. The important thing about booster is that its weight is almost fully fuel and the loss of about 400kg of fuel is more than enough to offset the advantage of altitude. The booster is launched upwards, not front facing. So, it does carry the missile upwards if needed. Booster also adds to the range as it takes a minute or so to separate and by then the distance traveled would have been around 30km.

Lets put some facts forward.

As per you the ER test was a user trial. Lets agree with it for time being and see what has been done.

Mishra’s team effected three changes to the BrahMos in less than a year in preparation for the ER test today: software changes to the fire control system and mission computer, and miniaturisation of some hardware elements in the propulsion system.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03/true-brahmos-unleashed-today-next-1000-km-weapon.html

Now after doing all these changes you think the test was a user one and not done by development team?

Anyway leave that too. Whoever did it has did it once. Just look at the last underlined part. I am saying this time and again that in its current form it can't travel 450 km without hardware change.

Now your second point was that the LCM didn't had a booster. Lets check the fact again.

the missile was gravity dropped from the Su-30 from the fuselage, and the two stage missile's engine fired up and straightway propelled towards the intended target at the sea in Bay of Bengal

http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=19

Now if the ALCM BRAHMOS was devoid of booster, what was the first stage?


Moreover have a look at the video. Its the solid fueled booster which fired up, not the liquid powered RAMJET.

 

[Enquirer]

Simple question................ Just tell me how you achieve 2.8 mach speed with the same engine and fuel used in Oniks?

Reduced diameter at the thickest section!!

 

[Enquirer]

Not eject, but to burn more fuel for higher thrust.

Now if the engine of both missiles are different and BRAHMOS has been providing higher thrust, why not Russians adopt it for Oniks?

Now since we are a part of MTCR for nearly 2 years, why instead of testing a long range BRAHMOS we have tested a life extension version of it back to back? A minor software change is much easier then overhauling of structure and mechanics I believe?

U sound ridiculous!
Range extension or not, life-extension is a MUST!! It's like car maintenance. For the missile to be reliable for the next 8-10 years the missile needs to be overhauled, some parts will be replaced!
The expectation is that the exercise of life-extension will also be accompanied with range-extension changes!

 

[Enquirer]

Let me tell you the basic difference in between BRAHMOS and Oniks. Speed.

Its not Indian fanboys who have came up with the Mach 2.8 speed of BRAHMOS or 2.5 Mach of Oniks. And moreover BRAHMOS maintains its speed throughout the cruise phase and at all altitude unlike Oniks.



https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ss-n-26.htm




https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/brahmos.htm

Now this .3 Mach difference means around 350kmph speed difference in both. How you think this has been achieved?

Now coming to point on why Russians prefer Oniks rather then BRAHMOS in there fleet? The Answer is simple, RANGE. Oniks although slower then BRAHMOS has a longer range and Russians like Americans and others want range. BRAHMOS is something which we had to content with. But what we lost at range has been compensated by speed. Even the Russians who had designed the engine knew the fact that with that speed, achieving the range of Oniks is not going to be possible given the limitation of RAMJET. We all know that RAMJET is also known as flying stove and what a gas guzzler it is.

BTW.. this must be a news for you. It is doing round for few days.


https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/admiral-gorshkov/

Now coming back to range enhancement of BRAHMOS, in its current form by the required software modification we might increase its range, but would it still remain a Mach 2.8 missile?
Are we ready to compromise on its speed for range?

Can't seem to understand your obsession with your own imaginations and allergy to logic/facts!

Here's a fact that you should mull on before making any more noise:
Oniks - Russian 2.5 mach, 600 kms range
Yakhont - Export version of Oniks. 2.5 mach. 300 kms range

Both are the exact same missile but one is range restricted for export market! Try running your thrust/weight/engine logic on how Yakhont will fly only 300kms, but Oniks (same missile) will fly 600kms!

Just because for the last few decades you haven't seen the unrestricted range of Brahmos (because Russia never inducted the new missile) it doesn't mean the range restriction cannot be removed!

Also, when MoD, Brahmos and the whole world has spoken about the ease to extend the range of Indian Brahmos with minor changes, why is that you're so stubbornly adherent to your own imagined thoughts? EGO!! You said some nonsense about how Brahmos will need engine change etc. for range extension before the official statements came out and you can't accept that you screwed up!!

As regards to the possibility of Gorshkov frigate carrying Brahmos, it makes perfect sense!
Now that Brahmos missile's range restriction has been removed, the final tested configuration of the missile as developed by Brahmos-Aerospace can be inducted into Russian military!
The range mentioned in the article is taken from 'stock footage' of the specs and doesn't reflect the specs for the modified missile.
You should ask a simple question to yourself. Why would Russia (that didn't care to induct Brahmos for 2 decades) induct a 290km range missile onto it's LATEST warships (given that you already mentioned that longer range is paramount to Russia). Obviously Brahmos onboard Gorshkov will have a full range of 500-600kms!

 

[Chinmoy]

Can't seem to understand your obsession with your own imaginations and allergy to logic/facts!

Here's a fact that you should mull on before making any more noise:
Oniks - Russian 2.5 mach, 600 kms range
Yakhont - Export version of Oniks. 2.5 mach. 300 kms range

Both are the exact same missile but one is range restricted for export market! Try running your thrust/weight/engine logic on how Yakhont will fly only 300kms, but Oniks (same missile) will fly 600kms!

Just because for the last few decades you haven't seen the unrestricted range of Brahmos (because Russia never inducted the new missile) it doesn't mean the range restriction cannot be removed!

Also, when MoD, Brahmos and the whole world has spoken about the ease to extend the range of Indian Brahmos with minor changes, why is that you're so stubbornly adherent to your own imagined thoughts? EGO!! You said some nonsense about how Brahmos will need engine change etc. for range extension before the official statements came out and you can't accept that you screwed up!!

As regards to the possibility of Gorshkov frigate carrying Brahmos, it makes perfect sense!
Now that Brahmos missile's range restriction has been removed, the final tested configuration of the missile as developed by Brahmos-Aerospace can be inducted into Russian military!
The range mentioned in the article is taken from 'stock footage' of the specs and doesn't reflect the specs for the modified missile.
You should ask a simple question to yourself. Why would Russia (that didn't care to induct Brahmos for 2 decades) induct a 290km range missile onto it's LATEST warships (given that you already mentioned that longer range is paramount to Russia). Obviously Brahmos onboard Gorshkov will have a full range of 500-600kms!

I am blind to logic? Fine............. Then what was the logic of not going for Yakhont at the very first place? Since both are same. Right?
Was it for building up a infra in home when India was going through the worst economic phase?
Wouldn't a license production of Yakhont would have been more beneficial for us at the time?

Yakhont is a Russian missile for export purpose and BRAHMOS is a JV with user specification. Now you could go on and say that these all are just words and have no implications. Its upto you and you could consider it as fact and I have no issue with that.

Nowhere I disagree with the fact that its range could be increased. My only point is that in its current form it can't cover 450 km range. If it is already capable of covering 450 km, why the changes has been done as reported.

Mishra’s team effected three changes to the BrahMos in less than a year in preparation for the ER test today: software changes to the fire control system and mission computer, and miniaturisation of some hardware elements in the propulsion system.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03/true-brahmos-unleashed-today-next-1000-km-weapon.html

Now again you could go on and say it as a fanboy article and dismiss it. No issue from my side.

1ship of Gorshkov class frigate is slated to enter service later this year. The news I shared is a speculation doing round.

New Russian frigate may be fitted with BrahMos cruise missiles

https://sputniknews.com/russia/20080620111481295/

This is 2008 article which started it.

How New Admiral-Series Super-Frigates Will Help Project Russian Naval Power

https://sputniknews.com/military/201802171061765871-project-22350-series-frigates-analysis/

This is the latest news which clearly mentions Onyx instead of BRAHMOS on it.

ArmamentThe Kalibr-NK universal missile system with an ammunition of 32 Onyx or Caliber missiles with the possibility of engaging sea and coastal targets, the Polimen-Redut anti-aircraft missile system, the Package complex, one 130 mm artillery A- 192, two rocket-artillery systems of self-defense "Palash". The aviation armament consists of a Ka-27PL helicopter.

https://flot.com/nowadays/strength/surfaceships/admiral-gorshkov/

So you see, till now Russians have not gone with BRAHMOS and its Onyx all way in their first ship. May be they could go for BRAHMOS-ER on later numbers post we start manufacturing them.

So as of today the missiles in service on in production are not capable of 450 km. Its not just the software part which would increase the range, but some hardware changes too is required.

BTW, you just don't get extra thrust by simply reducing the diameter of the RAMJET engine. With every increment of pressure on one end, you have to take into account the pressure buildup on other end too along with sustainer functionality.

 

[Kshithij]

I am blind to logic? Fine............. Then what was the logic of not going for Yakhont at the very first place? Since both are same. Right?
Was it for building up a infra in home when India was going through the worst economic phase?
Wouldn't a license production of Yakhont would have been more beneficial for us at the time?

India was in a good phase of economy in 1998 when Brahmos was made. So, it is not correct to say India simply wanted a missile and hence bought Brahmos in urgency. There is no way a missile can be made ready by 2001 if it was a completely new missile. 3 years of time is a big time back in 1990s when automation and softwares were not yet fully available as in today's time. Don't say anythig to simply jutify your whimsical statement.