Astra BVRAAM

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We need to have that dual pulse astra next version fast and with aesa radar on it.
If these conditions are met then I don't see anyway pakis winning.
Although the story with awacs help change many thing.
Also OUR MICA too don't have DUAL PULSE ROCKET MOTOR as of now.
They are going to add it in their new French mica NG, or am I missing something?
Please correct me.
 

Atcjurvin

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We need to have that dual pulse astra next version fast and with aesa radar on it.
If these conditions are met then I don't see anyway pakis winning.
Although the story with awacs help change many thing.
Also OUR MICA too don't have DUAL PULSE ROCKET MOTOR as of now.
They are going to add it in their new French mica NG, or am I missing something?
Please correct me.
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:bounce::bounce:.......................................
 

south block

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Go to previous page IAF chief himself said that Astra is comparable to AMRAAM - 120C in capabilities.
Yeah yeah what about electronic warfare as far as we know Chinese have access to every single Russian BVRAAM missiles. They can work to build Rapid counter measure against it whereas astra is totally different stuff.
I know --- that's why it will replace old russian R 77 until better dual pulse or SFDR come in with longer range & better engagement capability at terminal stage. ---- don't go into range & other tail chase BS on net & media --- here SFDR range at 8km according DRDO.

SFDR Poster (2).jpg


What's the range of meteor at same altitude @BON PLAN ?
 

abhay rajput

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What's the use of 80Km range R-77 which was already a lacking factor in previous skirmish. It's totally inferior to Astra Mk1 IAF have already tested Astra missile 25 times 50 limited production orders are already given and per unit cost of astra without mass manufacturing is comparable to R-77.
But yes a single jet armed with two totally different BVRM makes electronic warfare more different but I'm not happy with slow procurement of Astra.
That's certainly not the case R-27ER
Firing range, km:
max100
min100
Launch weight, kg350
Warhead weight, kg39

This information is from OEM.
Astra is having 10km edge over this missile too and We have specific reports which say likewise too astra is having range of 110KM armed with state of the art counter electronic warfare system. Cause Chinese already have these Russian missiles were as astra is totally new in the game.

I think it's as usual import lobby at work.
I don't think r27 weight 350 kg.. it's weight is close 250kg and range more than 100km. The one you are talking about is older variants and we haven't bought it. Remember that when you are comparing missiles then you should only compare how much time it burns. Astra burns for few seconds which gives it a range of only 20km. If your target is more than 20km then there is always a chance it may or may not hit. (Leaving attitude and avionics aside)
R77 have two variants, we only had older variants. R77sd >Astra. R27 radars guided ones have more range than both of these missiles.
Please don't be naive if you think that our first AAM will better than a country which have been manufacturing them for almost 3-4 decades..
Chinese have made a copy of r77 since many years and they there newer missiles are pretty great
 
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Assassin 2.0

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This can be the reason why India opted for this Russian combo.
Russian BVR Combat Philosophy

The Russian paradigm of BVR combat has its origins in the Cold War period, when Soviet operational analysis indicated that the low kill probability of missile seekers and airframes, especially if degraded by countermeasures, would be a major impediment to success. By the 1970s the standard Soviet technique in a BVR missile launch was to salvo two rounds, a semi-active radar homing weapon and a heatseeking weapon. To this effect some Soviet fighters even included a weapons select mode which automatically sequenced the launch of two rounds for optimal separation.

The mathematics of multiple round missile engagements are unambiguous - the size of a missile salvo launched is a stronger driver of success than the actual kill probability of the individual missiles. If the missiles are wholly identical by type, then the following curves may be optimistic, insofar as a factor degrading the kill probability of one missile is apt to have a similar effect on its siblings in a salvo. However, where the missiles differ by seeker type and guidance control laws, then the assumption of statistically independent missile shots is very much stronger.



A question often asked is why are Sukhoi Flanker variants equipped to carry between eight and twelve BVR missiles? The answer is a simple one - so they can fire more than one three or four round BVR missile salvo during the opening phases of an engagement. In this fashion the aircraft being targeted has a difficult problem as it must jam, decoy and/or outmanoeuvre three or four tightly spaced inbound missiles. Even if we assume a mediocre per round kill probability of 30 percent, a four round salvo still exceeds a total kill probability of 75 percent.



Loadout options for Su-35BM/Su-35-1: 5 x Long Range AAM (R-172/AAM-L); 8 x R-27ER1/R1 Alamo; 4 x R-27ET1/T1 or R-27EP1/P1 Alamo; 12 x R-77/RVV-E Adder; 6 x R-73E Archer. The loadout for the active radar seeker equipped R-27EA would be 8 rounds (KnAAPO).



A critical question which must be asked when assessing the effectiveness of Russian BVR tactics is that of Western tactics and the effectiveness of the AIM-120 AMRAAM, the principal Western BVR fighter weapon. The AIM-120A AMRAAM was introduced at the end of the Cold War to provide a "fire and forget" active radar guided weapon with a midcourse inertial guidance system and datalink support provided by the radar on the launch aircraft, allowing multiple concurrent shots. The AIM-120A was followed by the incrementally improved B-model, and then by the "short span" AIM-120C-3 sized to fit the F-22A weapon bay. The AIM-120C-4 has better kinematic performance introducing a larger rocket motor and shorter control section, and a better warhead, while the AIM-120C-6 introduced a better fuse. The latest AIM-120D introduces a redesigned seeker built for better durability in high vibration carriage environments, a two way datalink, GPS to supplement inertial guidance, incrementally improved kinematics, and better seeker performance against high off-boresight targets.



Most AIM-120 AMRAAM kills to date have involved 1980s export variants of the MiG-29 Fulcrum, with mediocre electronic warfare fit and often inoperative systems. These are not representative targets in the current Pacific Rim environment.

The performance of the AIM-120A/B/C models in combat to date has not been spectacular. Test range trials have resulted in stated kill probabilities of 85 percent out of 214 launches for the AIM-120C variant. Combat statistics for all three variants are less stellar, amounting to, according to US sources, ten kills (including a friendly fire incident against a UH-60) of which six were genuine BVR shots, for the expenditure of just over a dozen AIM-120 rounds. The important parameter is that every single target was not equipped with a modern defensive electronic warfare package and therefore not representative of a state-of-the-art Flanker in a modern BVR engagement. Against such "soft" targets the AIM-120 has displayed a kill probability of less than 50 percent [1].

It is an open question whether the AIM-120D when challenged with a modern DRFM (Digital RF Memory) based monopulse trackbreaking jammer will be able to significantly exceed the 50 percent order of magnitude kill probability of prior combat launches, let alone replicate the 85 percent performance achieved in ideal test range conditions [2].

AIM-120 COMBAT SUCCESS (US DoD)
Date Target Shooter Missile Location
27 Dec 92 MiG-25 F-16 AIM-120A Iraq
17 Jan 93 MiG-23 F-16 AIM-120A Iraq
28 Feb 94 Galeb F-16 AIM-120A Bosnia
24 Mar 99 MiG-29 F-16* AIM-120B Kosovo (RNeAF)
24 Mar 99 MiG-29 F-15 AIM-120C Kosovo
24 Mar 99 MiG-29 F-15 AIM-120C Kosovo
26 Mar 99 MiG-29 F-15 AIM-120C Kosovo
26 Mar 99 MiG-29 F-15 AIM-120C Kosovo
4 May 99 MiG-29 F-16 AIM-120A Kosovo
Where does this leave Western air forces equipped with the AIM-120 when confronting Flankers armed with up to three times the number of BVR missiles?

Illustrative examples are the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35 JSF, the latter armed in an air superiority configuration with two, the former with up to six AIM-120s [3]. Assuming the Flanker driver does not exploit his superior missile kinematic range and shoot first - an optimistic assumption - then the best case kill probability for the AIM-120 shooter firing two to four rounds is better than 90 percent. However, if we assume that hostile jamming and manoeuvre degrade the kill probability to around 50 percent - a reasonably optimistic statistical baseline here - then the total kill probability for a two round salvo is optimistically around 75 percent, and for a four round salvo over 90 percent. Arguably good odds for the four round salvo, only if the missile kill probability sits at 50 percent, but the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF will have expended all or most of its warload of AIM-120s and be unable to continue in BVR combat. In a "many versus many" engagement, the low speed of both types leaves them unable to disengage and will see both types subsequently killed by another Flanker.

This best case "many versus many" engagement scenario sees the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF being traded one for one with Su-30MK/Su-35BM Flankers in BVR combat, which is the general assumption made for WVR combat between like opponents, and representative of many historical attrition air campaign statistics. To achieve this best case "many versus many" outcome of trading F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF one for one, we have stacked a series of assumptions against the Flanker - dumb Flanker pilots not exploiting a missile kinematic range advantage, dumb Flanker pilots not exploiting a firepower advantage, Russian BVR missile seekers no better than the AIM-120, and Russian DRFM monopulse jammers achieving a less than 50 percent degradation of AIM-120 kill probability [4].

A competent Flanker driver gets the first shot with three or four round salvo of long burn R-27 variants, with mixed seekers, leaving one or two remaining salvoes of BVR missiles on his rails, and the same Flanker driver will have modern DRFM monopulse jammers capable of causing likely much more than a 50 percent degradation of AIM-120 kill probability. With a thrust vectoring engine capability (TVC), the Flanker driver has the option of making himself into a very difficult endgame target for the AIM-120 regardless of the capability of his jamming equipment. Since all of the AIM-120s fired are identical in kinematic performance and seeker jam resistance, any measure applied by the Flanker driver which is effective against one AIM-120 round in the salvo is apt to produce the same effect against all AIM-120 rounds - a problem the Flanker driver does not have due to diversity in seeker types and missile kinematics.

Currently classified capabilities such as the use of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar as an X-band high power jammer against the Russian BARS or Irbis E radar are not a panacea, and may actually hasten the demise of the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF in a BVR shootout. This is for the simple reason that to jam the Russian radar, the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar must jam the frequencies being used by the Russian radar, and this then turns the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar into a wholly electronically predictable X-band high power beacon for an anti-radiation seeker equipped Russian BVR missile such as the R-27EP or R-77P. The act of jamming the Russian radar effectively surrenders the frequency hopping agility in the emissions of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar, denying it the only defence it has against the anti-radiation missile. A smart Russian radar software designer will include a "seduction mode" to this effect, with narrowband emissions to make it very easy even for an early model 9B-1032 anti-radiation seeker.

The flipside of the electronic combat game is no better. The F-14A/B/D included the AAS-42 Infrared Search and Track set which allowed a target to be tracked despite hostile jamming of the AWG-9/APG-71 radar. It is clear that the addition of the podded AAS-42 to the Super Hornet and "air to air" use of the JSF EOTS are intended for much the same purpose. While this may permit the continuing use of the AESA radar to datalink midcourse guidance commands to the AIM-120s, it does nothing to deny the Flanker its own BVR shot. The notion that the defensive jamming equipment and infrared decoys will be highly effective against late model Russian digital missile seekers can only be regarded to be optimistic.

In electronic warfare terms neither side has a decisive advantage, but the Flanker does have a decisive advantage in aircraft and missile kinematics and in having up to six times the payload of BVR missiles to expend. The simple conclusion to be drawn is that operators of the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF should make every effort to avoid Beyond Visual Range combat with late model Flankers, as the best case outcome is parity in exchange rates, and the worst case outcome a decisive exchange ratio advantage to the Flanker. Given the evident design choices the Russians have made, this is not an accident, but rather a consequence of well thought through operational analysis of capabilities and limitations of contemporary BVR weapon systems.
 

BON PLAN

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Why?
Then by that scenario r-77 and amraams too fail.
The real inteesting range is the No Escape Zone, in which no ennemy can evade.
For an AMRAAM C5 it's in the 20km. probably the same (+/-5km) for R77. Sych a missile, in a ballistical trajectory can reach 100+ km, but with so few energy at the end that except a tanker in a straight flight, every plane can evade with a low G evade.
 

BON PLAN

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Brother then that is the case with AMRAAM - 120C and R-77 too. Astra uses a smokeless solid fuelled motor that can propel the missile to a speed of Mach 4.5 and allows operation from a maximum altitude of 20 km (66,000 ft). The maximum range of Astra is 110 km (68 mi) in head-on chase mode and 20 km (12 mi) in tail chase mode.
In chase mode it's very hard to out maneuver it. But the peak end of it's range it will fall short just like The AMRAAM - 120C which pakistan used against india.
see my previous answer .
 

abhay rajput

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It means that it's difficult to produce a high tech world class product at a very first attempt against some company with 40years of know how.

Not impossible, but more likely.
Yes that's what I said bro.

.....
What about mica what do you think of it..?
 

BON PLAN

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MICA?
The french air force don't think the futur is BVR and only BVR. Because the friend losses is more and more unacceptable, so you need to positively recognize a target, to be sure it's a foe, before firing.
( IFF is not reliable enough : remember the UNO helo in a secret mission (ie without any IFF) shooted by US F15 in the iraky mountains ).

That's why Rafale is equipped with OSF electro optical system and why MICA is not made for the same range than AMRAAM.

MICA has 2 assets : 1) the same missile can be used in WVR, and in BVR (with a shorter range than AMRAAM). 2) You can have the choice of the seeker (IR or radar), creating a difficulty for the opponent to developp the most efficient counter measures.


And, to answer to the next quetion : Why Meteor one Rafale ? Because it was just impossible marketingly speaking to leave the 2 others eurocanards with that missile without any answer ! But the french air force has only ordered 100 pieces ! ie they don't think it's so usefull. Maybe they are wrong. or not.
 

WARREN SS

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Yes that's what I said bro.

.....
What about mica what do you think of it..?
Total BS Astra Developed Taking into consideration of Designed R&D of Many years And New Technology
And Aim-120C5 Is Almost 22 years old Concept
Which Upgraded into Other Variants C7 To D variant

Meanwhile US Is making Completely Next gen Missile Technology Which Will make Meteor Outdated in Next 2-3 years AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile, or JATM

LCA is First Indigenous platform Which Upgraded Taking to consideration Of New Generation Air combat

LCA's is Advance then Mirage-2000 MK2 upgrade

LCA MK1A Will further upgraded Into category Of Gripen E
 

abhay rajput

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Total BS Astra Developed Taking into consideration of Designed R&D of Many years And New Technology
And Aim-120C5 Is Almost 22 years old Concept
Which Upgraded into Other Variants C7 To D variant

Meanwhile US Is making Completely Next gen Missile Technology Which Will make Meteor Outdated in Next 2-3 years AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile, or JATM

LCA is First Indigenous platform Which Upgraded Taking to consideration Of New Generation Air combat

LCA's is Advance then Mirage-2000 MK2 upgrade

LCA MK1A Will further upgraded Into category Of Gripen E
No it's not current LCA mk1 is 3.5 generation aircraft and so does mirage2k without upgrade. With upgrade m2k become 4th generation aircraft
Tejas mk1a will be better than m2k which first flight will happen in 2021 .
 

Assassin 2.0

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Astra is very much comparable to AIM-120C based on RAW capabilities.
And IAF in general is already pretty biased against indigenous weapons if Astra was a bad missile they would have pointed that out.
IF anyone here believes that astra is inferior missile then he/she then they should provide backing to that argument.
 

WARREN SS

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No it's not current LCA mk1 is 3.5 generation aircraft and so does mirage2k without upgrade. With upgrade m2k become 4th generation aircraft
Tejas mk1a will be better than m2k which first flight will happen in 2021 .
Current LCA is 4 th + Generation
With 2032 MMR
Glass Cockpit + HMDS & CCM Combo
LITENING GR4
Long range BVR
use Carbon Composite Materials
Stealth Air-frame


Full Flyby Wire Even MKi' Lacked It only Latest Blocks have it And Mirage-2000 Lacks it too

First Learn What is 4th Gen

LCA In BVR combat Will Out Pitch both MKI's and Mirage-2000
Due Low RCS And Better HMDS
also Derby has Better NEZ than R-77 And R-27
 
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abhay rajput

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Current LCA is 4 th + Generation
With 2032 MMR
Glass Cockpit + HMDS & CCM Combo
LITENING GR4
Long range BVR
use Carbon Composite Materials
Stealth Air-frame


Full Flyby Wire Even MKi' Lacked It only Latest Blocks have it And Mirage-2000 Lacks it too

First Learn What is 4th Gen

LCA In BVR combat Will Out Pitch both MKI's and Mirage-2000
Due Low RCS And Better HMDS
also Derby has Better NEZ than R-77 And R-27
Hmm.. ok sir here is the link of IAF telling Supreme court that Tejas is 3.5 generation aircraft..
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...e-court/story-OfrF0URwf3ps9xTKxhGHCN_amp.html
Tejas don't have any operational BVR as of today .. its still hasn't been done.. there are still some time required , they have tested them yes but not operational . There were some deficiency which has been rectified but software updates hasn't been done .. moreover current Tejas ARE IOC
 

WARREN SS

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Hmm.. ok sir here is the link of IAF telling Supreme court that Tejas is 3.5 generation aircraft..
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...e-court/story-OfrF0URwf3ps9xTKxhGHCN_amp.html
Tejas don't have any operational BVR as of today .. its still hasn't been done.. there are still some time required , they have tested them yes but not operational . There were some deficiency which has been rectified but software updates hasn't been done .. moreover current Tejas ARE IOC
I Don't Know What IAF Said Or Not I just Defined The global Merit Of 4th generation fighter
And I don't Trust India media reporting Genuinely On Defense Related matters

Nevertheless Comparing Rafale With LCA itself Shows You Don't know Weight category of both Aircraft and there Roles
LCA is Light Weight Category fighter

While Rafale Is Medium To heavy weight Category

LCA Will replace Mig-21 to 23
Rafale Will replace Mig-27 ,SEPCAT Jaguar & Mirage-2000


As For BVR Its Already integrated Into LCA
Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) successfully fired Derby Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range Missile to expand the firing envelope as well as to demonstrate safe operation of the aircraft during missile plume ingestion into the aircraft engine under worst case scenarios. The missile was launched from LCATejas piloted by Wg Cdr Siddharth Singh on 27 April 2018 from the firing range off the Goa coast after exhaustive study of the missile separation characteristics and plume envelope. LCATejas has been designed & developed by DRDO’s autonomous society – Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

Integration of Derby, a BVR class missile is one of the major objectives of Final Operational Clearance (FOC) of LCATejas.

The aircraft was tracked by two other Tejas aircraft in close formation to capture the firing event in the specially instrumented high speed cameras for detailed analysis and comparison with the simulation model for validation. The entire planning, practice sorties and final firing was carried out by ADA and it’s National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) officials Cmde JA Maolankar and GpCapt A Kabadwal, IAF, DG(AQA), HAL & INS HANSA.

Based on the successful integration and demonstration, Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA), a unit of DRDO has cleared the series production aircraft of Squadron 45, to be equipped with Derby operational capability. LCATejas has successfully completed a series of captive flight trials to clear Derby for the full operational capability in the entire FOC envelope. In the past, Tejas has qualified for the armaments and missile release related trials.(Leh Bhai Dhyan sei Pad Lei Tu):doh::doh::facepalm::facepalm:



https://pib.gov.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=178996

Also LCA MK1 Got FOC Last Year Itself

https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/indias-lca-tejas-operational-clearance/
 
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