Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[skj]

That is not my opinion, but opinion of tank designers all around the world.

And we actually wonder, why instead of base design on reliable solutions, there is so much "making it our way" which in the ends means making the same old mistakes as the more experienced design bureaus made, and improving things that were long time ago improved by others and put to perfection.

Can you explain this approach? I have my theory but, I will keep it to myself.

Who is 'we'? You and your tapeworm? India is a big country. Unlike little countries like Denmark or Poland, we have overarching security needs, that dont fit into the security paradigms provided by the Super powers. We simply cant rely on imported weapons, spares for which will be denied at crucial times. Therefore we need local design and technological capabilities. The small scale industrial efforts - like Arjun, keep this capability alive, while imports keep the sword arm good enough for deterrence. Now India is a very poor and technologically backwards country. It is a huge achievement for us, to be able to design our own tank. Which other third world country has done it and ended up with a reasonably potent system such as the Arjun? So even with some shortcomings, a local product is preferable, as it provides strategic autonomy.

As for why particular design solutions were adopted, why one aspect given more weight than the other, nobody other than the designers know, and they arent talking.

 

[STGN]

It is what it is, its not going to change by my pixel poking. I simply gave a rough (but correct) approximation of the hull:turret ratio of 12:10 at the point where the turret meets the hull. Since the hull width at that point was not known at the time, I said that the turret would be 3.2 meters wide, if the hull at that point was 3.86 meters wide.
Yeah I can also say that the tank is 10m wide +/- 10m thats a rough but correct approximation, totally worth less of cause, but what ever. your approximation is so inaccurate that it doesn't bring us father and as I have shown it gives us inflated(overestimation) numbers.

In your picture above, you have an unstated assumption, which is the width of the tank including the armored skirts is 3.86 meters.
Do you know what "overall" means?? if you go back a few pages I posted a link which will tell you the overall width of the tank that is 3.864m, DRDO said that.

The other thing is, you are not taking into account the fact that the inner armor skirt extends for the entire length of the tank. Therefore the width of the hull at the point where the hull meets the turret is a bit wider, which will give you a turret width of ~3 meters.
This probable the most hilarious dimwitted comment yet, Side skirts can be taken off and should not be counted not even when they are thin if your are talking about hull with out skirts. If you counted them in your calculation then you have not been straight forward about your claims, why is that?

Anyway, a slightly larger turret is not going to make any difference in the age of advanced FCS, radar/TI guided weapons.

According to the numbers on DRDO homepage Indian designers disagree with you. They added to each side of the base LEO2 structure but they did not make the turret 3 meters wide.
STGN

 

[Damian]

Lets understand what you have done here, you have drawn a few straight lines, and you pretend as if you are the second coming of Euclid. Grow up, any idiot can draw these simple geometrical patterns. You are not privy to what constraints the Indian designers were working with.. In any case, this is not a question of 'western' or 'eastern' mentality, its a matter of enthusiasts forgetting the extent of their knowledge. Regardless of the plumage you want to adorn yourself with, there is a reason why you are spouting off on an internet board and the Indian guys are designing a real life tank. You cant even make a simple measurement from a head on photograph and are putting forwards all sorts of nonsense and 'clever' racist claims.

Well this is the source of the problem. If someone don't prize Indian made tank, point out it's weak sides in design, and is a non Indian, then is is automaticaly named a rascist. This is such a convieniant way to disregard oponent.

Who is 'we'? You and your tapeworm?

Oh, and you call me a "rascist".

India is a big country. Unlike little countries like Denmark or Poland, we have overarching security needs, that dont fit into the security paradigms provided by the Super powers. We simply cant rely on imported weapons, spares for which will be denied at crucial times. Therefore we need local design and technological capabilities. The small scale industrial efforts - like Arjun, keep this capability alive, while imports keep the sword arm good enough for deterrence. Now India is a very poor and technologically backwards country. It is a huge achievement for us, to be able to design our own tank. Which other third world country has done it and ended up with a reasonably potent system such as the Arjun? So even with some shortcomings, a local product is preferable, as it provides strategic autonomy.

You see, this is another problem, that some Indians, treat constructive criticism as approach to kill your own industry, which is not. This is just a discussion, we observe, and say, "hey, there is something wrong in design, made different, not with world wide accepted patterns, and might not work, can cost lives" etc.

I do not say, do not manufacture your own tank, I will say more, manufacture your own tank, but try to learn from these that have much grater experience so you can avoid the same problems that were solved long time ago, you can reduce R&D time, costs and risks.

I am sure that many countries would not make any problems with licence, for example for smoothbore gun, neither for ammunition, I would say more, you could purchase big stocks of NATO high tech APFSDS ammunition for war use only, and in the same time slowly improve your own ammunition.

This would also benefits future, who currently use a rifled gun for a one piece ammunition besides India? Nobody, if India would use smoothbore gun, in 120mm calliber, you could in the future get in to world wide market with ammunition that could compete and if successfull, provide profits for India.

Also you forget that we do not treat India as enemy, but as a country and a nation, that is in future a possible close ally and friend to NATO and "west".

Personally I find it sad, that instead of discussion, we are mostly attacked by our opinions and observations, only because they are contrary to the popular bielieves.

 

[skj]

No, its statements like these that are racist:-
1. lack of brains = we have non isolated ammo rack in turret (without blow out pannel, without munition "bunker") next to 50-60mm thick RHA plate
2. Sorry but our western mentality just can't comprehend such curious behavior.

Now I know, you are from Poland and a little rough around the edges, but statements like these would be considered racist in most civilized gatherings. If you pompously address yourself as 'we', you are just begging to be brought down a notch. I would say the same to an Indian guy who said "We think.." :-D get over it.

 

[skj]

>> I do not say, do not manufacture your own tank, I will say more, manufacture your own tank, but try to learn from these that have much grater experience so you can avoid the same problems that were solved long time ago, you can reduce R&D time, costs and risks.

Who was willing to collaborate with India in the late 80s to early 2000s time frame when this tank was designed? No one. Now that we have money, poles, Israelis and many others are falling over themselves to collaborate.. but..

>> I am sure that many countries would not make any problems with licence, for example for smoothbore gun, neither for ammunition, I would say more, you could purchase big stocks of NATO high tech APFSDS ammunition for war use only, and in the same time slowly improve your own ammunition.

We make the 125mm smooth bore. No one was willing to give us the license for the rhinemetall 120mm smooth bore. You need to consider the terrain and the strategic usage of the tank force before you decide what kind of gun to use etc. The only border India has that is tankable, is with Pakistan. We have no designs on their terrain, therefore an armored force doing deep manuever inside Pakistan is very unlikely. What is needed is a tank with low ground pressure than can kill other tanks and support infantry in shallow, wide fronts. There is very little chance of Indians sending tanks 100 or even a 50 kms inside the Pak border. Cities are too close, and nuclear redlines will be crossed. Think it over, and you will arrive at a tank that is suited to our strategy and doctrine.

>> This would also benefits future, who currently use a rifled gun for a one piece ammunition besides India? Nobody, if India would use smoothbore gun, in 120mm calliber, you could in the future get in to world wide market with ammunition that could compete and if successfull, provide profits for India.

India has a sanctioned tank force of 3000+ tanks. If there are 3000 tanks firing from rifled guns, we will find sellers (if needed) for sure.

 

[Damian]

Who was willing to collaborate with India in the late 80s to early 2000s time frame when this tank was designed? No one. Now that we have money, poles, Israelis and many others are falling over themselves to collaborate.. but..

I am sure that Israelis and French would not give a damn and collaborate, afterall French were collaborating without any problems with Ukraine, then why not with India?

No one was willing to give us the license for the rhinemetall 120mm smooth bore.

Who is noone? As far as I see, Rhinemetall design is the most licenced 120mm smoothbore gun over the world, there is American M256 version, Israeli MG251 and MG253, Japanese and South Korean versions, recently also Turkey got licenced version of that gun.

Not to mention that there is French CN-120/26, Italian OTO Melara 120mm smoothbore gun, RUAG CTG 120mm smoothbore gun, even Ukrainians have 120mm smoothbore gun compatible with NATO ammunition. There is a lot of manufacturers, and in the 1990's there was a huge boom on export deals, and many weapon systems designed especially for export and companies were very pro cooperation with many countries like India due to budget cuts in their own countries.

So don't say nobody was willing to cooperate.

India has a sanctioned tank force of 3000+ tanks. If there are 3000 tanks firing from rifled guns, we will find sellers (if needed) for sure.

I will ask again, where do you see a nations that use tanks armed with 120mm rifled guns firing one piece ammunition just like Arjun. Where?

I will provide a support answer, nowhere, nobody is willing to play with such weapons, everyone use or 120mm smoothbores, or 125mm smoothbores or obsolete 105mm rifled that is mounted mostly in old tanks, just like 100mm rifled and 115mm smoothbore, which means that these vehicles will be slowly withdrawn from service.

UK also ceased production of ammunition for 120mm rifled guns firing 3 piece ammunition, this is why Jordanians for example is slowly rearming their Challenger 1 tanks with RUAG CTG 120mm smoothbore guns.

These are facts you must deal with. Think in to future.

No, its statements like these that are racist:-
1. lack of brains = we have non isolated ammo rack in turret (without blow out pannel, without munition "bunker") next to 50-60mm thick RHA plate
2. Sorry but our western mentality just can't comprehend such curious behavior.

Now I know, you are from Poland and a little rough around the edges, but statements like these would be considered racist in most civilized gatherings. If you pompously address yourself as 'we', you are just begging to be brought down a notch. I would say the same to an Indian guy who said "We think.." :-D get over it.

1) Militarysta is right, lack of separated ammunition magazines (especially in turret that is more exposed) with blow off panels is not smart, but this means he talks about whole nation? Or about a race... even if race in terms of differences within humanity is just idiotic idea.
2) Why my words are considered as a rascist? Damn it seems that even if you are against rascism anyone can call you are rascist when this is convieniant to him.

Also you call me a rascist, but your comment about other countries, and I see a lot of people in this forum, saying a lot of such comments towards others, like Pakistanis. You should rethink your comments you know.

 

[skj]

I am sure that Israelis and French would not give a damn and collaborate, afterall French were collaborating without any problems with Ukraine, then why not with India?

Your reply shows your ignorance of the strategic context in which India had to operate for decades. Let alone the gun, Germany was not willing to supply the more advanced 1500hp mtu engine. As for racist comments, I gave you two examples, it is not necessary what is OK in your circles will be considered OK in others. You need to be a little more careful. If I make any racist comments, I am open to being corrected. My remark that Poland and Denmark are smaller countries that operate under the security umbrella of superpowers and that India does not have the same luxury is simply factual. It has nothing to do with race. I dont recall having made any comments against Pakistan.

>> I will ask again, where do you see a nations that use tanks armed with 120mm rifled guns firing one piece ammunition just like Arjun. Where?

And I will say again, the Indian army is large enough to be a market all by itself. If the 120mm rifled gun is adopted in numbers, ammunition will be available.

 

[militarysta]

This is the type of nonsense I am talking about. You simply have some preconceived racist notion and are not afraid to flaunt it.

So in Your opinion talking that someone not from Poland act like a idiot is racist? So there is no option to said (without beeeing polite) that some solution is fatal without beeing "racist" in your opinnion.
Do You know definition "racist"? You completly don't understand what this word means. Proof that I posted those "lack of brains" cose somebody language, nation, religion, colour etc. Just proof that, or just find my on post when I post something rude cose by religion, nation, colour etc reson. You don't find that post. End you shoud find and read definition "rasist" word.
BTW: Funny, im from Poland but my family was from Germany and France too -so in what way I coud be a rasist?

What is the relationship between a 'good gun' and mantle size?

Eacht gun need "equipment" mounted in "wiege" (lack of proper word in english by my side) - gun amortysation, muted points, coaxial MG, reserve sight, etc. If gun is propper developed (Rh120 L-44, er even better US Mxx seriee) then overal width can be very small. And this is always better for tank.

1. Only the first 125 tanks have the turret ammo without the blow off panels.

It's clearly visible on the photos. Just for Arjun developers crews life after turret perforation wasn't important. OK, fine by me -it was they idea propably based on quite big numbers of tank crews in Indian Army, and ratcher "cheap" way to "produce" new tank crews. This idea is completly difren't from the NATO ones, and even Soviet ones when tank haven't any gun ammo in turret.

I have posted an interview with the tank designer, who says that Mk2 has turret blowoff panels. I think Ill take his word over some random guy on the internet.

Great for Indian tank crews. Of course if turret amunition will be inside separate "bunker" like in Leo-2, Abrams, Merkava IV, etc
BTW: till now I don't see any one photo whit isolated amunition in Arjun turret, so I understand that those tank is not even as prototype yet?

Let alone the gun, Germany was not willing to supply the more advanced 1500hp mtu engine.

Becouse Indian want's full licence whit law to export those engine for other countries without asking Germnas. In fact Indian industry is trying to buy licence (whit 100% offset) but whit allowed to (posybility) to do anytching whit that license - example- export this to the next countries and in that way make competitive product for the manufacturer's factory. Nobody sane will allowed for that in crusial points. So Yes, whit that approach to shopping IA will be waiting long time for realy good components, or give older ones or weaker parts - like older 125mm gun, weaker MTU engine, obsolate IMI ammo, etc. But it's yours -Indian- free choice what is the most important for you country.

And I will say again, the Indian army is large enough to be a market all by itself. If the 120mm rifled gun is adopted in numbers, ammunition will be available.

No, it will be not. There is problem whit fins in APFSDS ammo, and sabot construction. In fact nobody developed technology to produce good APFSDS ammo for rifted guns. This train leave any ears ago, and eacht country whit technologu and developed studios come into smoothbore guns (USA, Germany, Swizterland, France, Russia, Ukraina) even British wants to change rifted guns couse lack of good enought ammo for that gun.

 

[ersakthivel]

The shadow of the turret falls on the hull at the third blue line from the top.
it is the place where turret's side wall projection on the hull would fall.
The blue rectangle drawn on the TC's crew hatch cover represent s the true length of the hatch cover .
This rectangle is projected in the correct plane on the hull ,
found out by the downwards projection of the line joining the two hatch covers on the turret top,
to the top of the hull.
This is the perspective drawing as far as I know,

If the side skirts are not included in the 3800 mm width of the hull the red line indicates that about half of the hatch cover length is the actual width besides the turret on the ARJUN hull.

IF the crew hatch measures 550mm it is about 275 mm.
SO the width of the turret is 3200 mm-(275x2=500 mm)=3300 mm,

If side skirts are included in the width about 4/5 th of the hatch cover length is the actual width besides the turret on the ARJUN hull.
That is about 0.80x550 mm=440 mm
3800-(400x2=880 mm)= 2900 mm is the width of the ARJUN turret.

Even if you take a worst case scenario of 2900 mm turret width,
1450mm is the distance between outter most side wall of arjun side turret and the turret centerline,
1200 mm is the distance between the two crew hatch centers,
1200/2= 600 mm is the distance of Tc' seat edge from the turret center line,
So 1450 mm-600 mm=850 mm is the space available besides the crew hatch center and the outer most side wall of arjun turrret,

If people agree on this point we can have an objective debate,

This 850 mm is the distance between the outer turret wall of the arjun and the crew hatch hole center,
The two crew hatch holes are located at the same distance from the turret center line is my estimate,

SO even if we give out a margin of error of 200 mm in my estimate the space available for armor on the arjun's side turret wall is 650 mm.

Whether it is perspective drawing or perspektive drawing these rules are universal,
All objects must be projected to the apropriatre place to get any fair estimate,
The crew hatch covers are opened and standing vertically,.
The blue line joining the base of the two crew hatch covers represent the proper axis on which the covers are standing vertically,
SO if we have to project the width of the crew hatch cover to the correct position on the hull,
We should project the axis line joining the two crew hatch cover base on the turret top to it's correct position on the hull top,
That's what I have done.

 

[ersakthivel]

So photoshop people and 3D max people are welcome to analyze these views on perspective drawing in a scholarly manner ,

See, I respect PMAITRA's word and despite all the taunts I have done my best to carry foprward the debate in a technical way, Now PMAITRA

it is your responsibility to ban the guys who want to use foul language continuously without any provocation from my side.

 

[ersakthivel]

See this picture .you can clearly see the gap between the turret and the hull at the point where the turret frontal armor plane meets the side armor plane(i.e just below the triangular cut on the bottom of the turret side.)
is at least 1/4 th of the turrets height .

If you extend the side turret plane by further 1/4 th height of the turret , in the downwards direction,
you can touch the hull top,

In fact my projection for shadow line is about equal to that the 1/4 th of the turret height in the picture I posted above.below,

 

[bengalraider]

new pic of Arjun from the 15th Jan 2013 army day parade

 

[sasi]

Arjun tank scam: CBI books two officials of Kerala PSU | idrw.org

 

[ersakthivel]

@Damian, @STGN, @militarysta

All the three guys ,


1. have no knowledge about drawings and dimensions,
2.and not an iota of idea about ARJUN's specs,
What is their purpose in this thread,

is to
Ganging up and abusing all other posters trying to engage in a debate,

If they are allowed to continue without giving any source to any of their posted specs for ARJUN,

this thread will become a testing tool for artfully using foul language,

Guys them are not allowed in other forums in the net,

for trying to derail discussions when they have no point to argue,

by provoking the other guy with personal abuse.

if any of the members have any doubt please refer the posts-1398 onwards posted by @STGN

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-93.html

 

[militarysta]

@Damian, @STGN, @militarysta

All the three guys have no knowledge about ARJUN, Their only purpose here is to abuse any other poster who contradicts them,

Sure, we just forgot that Arjun is super-duper space carrier and deth star able to destroy pak tanks for 99999km, and have sucht powerfull armour that only A bomb is able to slighty damage it. But only slighty of course.
Seriously?
No one diamencion and estimateus made by you is possible. For many resons you are overestimeted Arjun turret. STGN and Dejawolf proof on photo that Arjun turret is thinner theny you posted, I found draw from Kampfpanzer heute unf morgen in 1:72 scale and result is very close to STGN and Dejawolf job. You are totally "proofresisant" so now we must wait for real mesurment on Arjun -if Indian OPSPEC allowed that of course.

BTW: God bless India thaty you bought T-90 from russia, becouse till now we can't say that Arjun is far better, or even better then Pak T-80U and Al-Kchalid. More then twenty years of developing and what? And Arjun is standing in one place - in about 1980s couse only FCS is quite modern now. Maybe future development Arjun program will be better, but now averyone can compare South Korean K1 (cooperation whit USA,) K2 (cooperation whit France), Japanise Type 90 (Cooperation whit Germany and USA), Turkey Altay (cooperation whit South Korea and in some way whit Germany) and...Al Kchalid (coopeation whit China, Ukraina, France and GB). All this countries dosen't trie to invite the wheel agains.
And as I posted to @skj erlyier - - it's indian way for bulid the tank and it Yours problem guys. India industry is trying to buy full licence for any components - whit law to reexport those products. It's good for India as a coutry, it's good for indian industry themselfs, but for Arjun program si very bad couse no one sane western tank companies will sell ex: Rh120, MTU-MB883, FCS, ammo linence whit risky that will be commercial competition for producer-mother factory. So whit that approach to the problem of Arjun components still many real good component's will not be avaible for India. But it's only Indian choice - what is better - made all themselfs and tryin to invite all again but independly, or just buy licence, have some limitations on reexport but have good gun, ammo, modern P-P, etc etc.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sure, we just forgot that Arjun is super-duper space carrier and deth star able to destroy pak tanks for 99999km, and have sucht powerfull armour that only A bomb is able to slighty damage it. But only slighty of course.
Seriously?
No one diamencion and estimateus made by you is possible. For many resons you are overestimeted Arjun turret. STGN and Dejawolf proof on photo that Arjun turret is thinner theny you posted, I found draw from Kampfpanzer heute unf morgen in 1:72 scale and result is very close to STGN and Dejawolf job. You are totally "pofresisant" so now we must wait for real mesurment on Arjun -if Indian OPSPEC allowed that of course. ro

BTW: God bless India thaty you bought T-90 from russia, becouse till now we can't say that Arjun is far better, or even better then Pak T-80U and Al-Kchalid. More then twenty years of developing and what? And Arjun is standing in one place - in about 1980s couse only FCS is quite modern now. Maybe future development Arjun program will be better, but now averyone can compare South Korean K1 (cooperation whit USA,) K2 (cooperation whit France), Japanise Type 90 (Cooperation whit Germany and USA), Turkey Altay (cooperation whit South Korea and in some way whit Germany) and...Al Kchalid (coopeation whit China, Ukraina, France and GB). All this countries dosen't trie to invite the wheel agains.
And as I posted to @skj erlyier - - it's indian way for bulid the tank and it Yours problem guys. India industry is trying to buy full licence for any components - whit law to reexport those products. It's good for India as a coutry, it's good for indian industry themselfs, but for Arjun program si very bad couse no one sane western tank companies will sell ex: Rh120, MTU-MB883, FCS, ammo linence whit risky that will be commercial competition for producer-mother factory. So whit that approach to the problem of Arjun components still many real good component's will not be avaible for India. But it's only Indian choice - what is better - made all themselfs and tryin to invite all again but independly, or just buy licence, have some limitations on reexport but have good gun, ammo, modern P-P, etc etc.

I found draw from Kampfpanzer heute unf morgen in 1:72 scale and result is very close to STGN and Dejawolf job.

provide a link or provide the drawing.Not your certificate for dejawolf or STGN
How to respond to this type of very objective and
very very reasonable post?
It exactly resembles many anonymous indian posts on many indian defense blogs(obviously by foreign posters),
imploring indian government to not to waste tax payer's money by developing LCA, ARJUN.
According to these guys INDIA which launches moon probes, nuclear ballistic missiles, builds it's own satellites and nuclear reactors and submarines ,makes it's own super computers can not produce a decent MBT and a combat aircraft(even if engines are imported from abroad) forever.

despite so many sketches pointing to the contrary people are itching to throw garbage on ARJUN
My only answer is GOD has already blessed INDIA and that's why india has made all the above systems.
Now GOD's(more precisely MOD's ) intervention is needed to save many threads from oblivion in DFI.

 

[cloud_9]

Livefist: PHOTOS: Arjun Mk.2 In Desert Trials

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Doesn't the frontal areas of the turret? near the commander's scope too much exposed...one hit with a tandem heat round would do considerable damage to the commander...wudnt it?

 

[sathya]

is that tank just with improvement on mk1 or is it mk2 tank?

 

[farhan_9909]

Story of arjun development of how it took 40 years to develop(First prototype 1985?)