Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Daredevil]

Arjun MBT

I am always insisting that T90 is good. You can interpret this is in any way.

T-90 is good but not good enough against Al-Khalids, they are more like equals.

Armed forces have to make do with what they have. If they wouldn't have ordered T90 back in the day and if we had to fight a war today ?

No body is objecting to the tanks ordered back in the day given the circumstances of unavailability of Arjun. But now circumstances have changed and Arjun is available now and better than T-90. So, Army had to change its view against T-90 and come into its senses to order more Arjuns instead of more T-90s.

And T90 is a damn fine tank.And sufficient as well. And Greater operational efficiency if there is 1 particular type or family type of tank. Agreed ?

T-90 is damn fine tank, so is Arjun.

Arjun's biggest failure - its untimely delivery
Arjun's lucky break - cancellation of T95.

Now Arjun is ready to deliver. Saying Arjun's lucky break is because of T-95 cancellation is nothing but wishful thinking.

NG MBT talks have been going on for quite some time.

You are missing the important point here.
Russia by cancelling T95 have signalled that T90 is sufficient and there is no threat assessment necessitating a NG MBT anytime soon. T90 can handle all the threats. Russia is a huge exporter. If it signals that no new MBT required means no new MBT required. IA has picked up on this.

If Arjun turns out to be "better" than T90 than going ahead with Arjun makes sense because no new Tank type is coming out anytime soon. We can bolster our numbers, maintain a bigger in operation armour number and also improve our overall armour quality and capability level. And now we can even think about investing in upgrading infrastructure/logistics for Arjun like heavy tanks.

Thinking what is good for Russians is also good for Indian Army is a big fallacy. Russian operate in cold climes and we operate in hot climate of deserts. Lots of difference. May be for Russia T-90 is good enough given the enemies it has to fight but India has to fight more formidable enemies in the form of China and Pakistan, so IA needs better tanks than what enemies have and Arjun fits the bill.

IA has to invest in Arjun infrastructure and logistics because they are the ones issues GSQR for Arjuns. So, IA nor T-90 campers cannot harp on this point anymore. Army has no stick to beat with when it comes to Arjun. Period.

 

[sayareakd]

Arjun: News and Discussions II

Their are media reports for last few weeks that Arjun tank has achive edge over T 90S tank, contrary to what IA (DGMF) was saying all these years.

If this report was not true, then IA would have beaten their drums denying every single allegation about the triumph of Arjun tank.

This prove what was said all along by DRDO that their tank is far superior then T 90S tank.

Now lets put all these controversies to rest and accept the Arjun as it is.

Please remember that Arjun tank is our tank, design for and made by us.

 

[Agantrope]

Yet again another arguement!!!! :O.

Mods pls start a new thread, pages crossed 100+. Im sick of this arguement yet again :|

 

[sayareakd]

Yet again another arguement!!!! :O.

Mods pls start a new thread, pages crossed 100+. Im sick of this arguement yet again :|

this is for all our friends who still like T 90 tank, let us finish this once in for all, trial has happen, we know the unofficial result. so lets stop pretending

 

[Singh]

Arjun is also good . By Arjun being a in house development , needs support from our armed forces.
they want 1500 T-90 i say wonderful. It never matter to me if it was better than the T-90, but circumstances demanded that was how the Arjun had to prove it self

My only issue was with the lack of numbers when it came to the Arjun.
It met all its requirements set out by the IA and only received a petty order of 124 .
they had to order at least 500 tanks , just to justify the cost in development.

Why was the order so low ?
The production models that participated in the trials were the same as the first Arjuns of the production lines. Meaning those tanks , that were made first had no problems or issues. And were the same tanks that trumped the T-90's.
If so then why do we have only 124 of them.

500 + order would be the minimum order the IA has to do.
I agree .
But its the Army fault as well for procrastination when it came to the Arjun's trials

Let me impress upon you the Army's urgency and nervousness.

PA was upgrading Armor, PA had bought T80s.
Arjun was ~3 decades into development and still nowhere in sight. T90 was the most logical option.
More T90s were again ordered only when Arjun failed to impress. Again it was a logical decision.

That is an interesting point you make.
but like i said the IA does want a NG MBT ,
But it has no plans of acquiring it before 2020.
The next 10 years was always free for more Arjun's.

Israel, Russia happy with their MBTs, DRDO's hands full and record less than stellar. Going to operate 3 types of MBTs in huge numbers. We aren't getting a NG MBT anytime soon.

 

[Singh]

T-90 is good but not good enough against Al-Khalids, they are more like equals.

No body is objecting to the tanks ordered back in the day given the circumstances of unavailability of Arjun. But now circumstances have changed and Arjun is available now and better than T-90. So, Army had to change its view against T-90 and come into its senses to order more Arjuns instead of more T-90s.
T-90 is damn fine tank, so is Arjun.

Your whole argument is valid if and only if T90 was inferior to Pak MBTs. However it is not. And any onpaper deficiency that you can come up with will be negated by the sheer numbers of Armor we operate or opinions of Army officers (I have a on-record general's statement on T90s capability)

Now Arjun is ready to deliver. Saying Arjun's lucky break is because of T-95 cancellation is nothing but wishful thinking.

Why would Army order Arjuns if a NG MBT like T95 was round the corner ? Are we stupid ?

Thinking what is good for Russians is also good for Indian Army is a big fallacy. Russian operate in cold climes and we operate in hot climate of deserts. Lots of difference. May be for Russia T-90 is good enough given the enemies it has to fight but India has to fight more formidable enemies in the form of China and Pakistan, so IA needs better tanks than what enemies have and Arjun fits the bill.

1. Russia is one of the worlds largest arms exporters.
2. Again valid if T90 is inferior to enemy tanks. Evidently it is not so.

IA has to invest in Arjun infrastructure and logistics because they are the ones issues GSQR for Arjuns. So, IA nor T-90 campers cannot harp on this point anymore. Army has no stick to beat with when it comes to Arjun. Period.

Arjun failed even after being in development for 3 decades forcing us to buy T90s.
And again failed, forcing us to upgrade T72s.
And now that it has passed its going to be ordered.
but Infrastructure needs to be built.
Production numbers are going to be low.
Quality and performance has to be continually monitored.
It has 40-80% imported components, vagaries of pricing and delivery. Etc. Etc.

---

T90 is the reason why Arjun's outcome doesn't affect our national security.

 

[Singh]

Their are media reports for last few weeks that Arjun tank has achive edge over T 90S tank, contrary to what IA (DGMF) was saying all these years.

If this report was not true, then IA would have beaten their drums denying every single allegation about the triumph of Arjun tank.

This prove what was said all along by DRDO that their tank is far superior then T 90S tank.

Absolutely logical fallacies.

1. You fail an exam, then again fail an exam but on the third attempt pass. Does it mean you had passed in earlier attempts ?

2. How does it matter if Arjun is the most superior tank in the world. Your enemy is armed with sticks, would you use nuclear weapons on them ?

Now lets put all these controversies to rest and accept the Arjun as it is.

Please remember that Arjun tank is our tank, design for and made by us.

Krauss-Maffei rings a bell ? And what about its imported components ?

 

[Daredevil]

Your whole argument is valid if and only if T90 was inferior to Pak MBTs. However it is not. And any onpaper deficiency that you can come up with will be negated by the sheer numbers of Armor we operate or opinions of Army officers (I have a on-record general's statement on T90s capability)

I'm not talking about T-90 being inferior. I'm only saying that T-90 doesn't bring any distinct advantages and superiority over Pakistani Al-Khalids. This is not we want our Army to equipped with. We want them to have more superior Tanks with better accuracy and protection which will give superiority over Pak army and the answer is Arjun not T-90.

Why would Army order Arjuns if a NG MBT like T95 was round the corner ? Are we stupid ?

We have been hearing T-95 for many years but nothing came out and what with recent news coming about it getting scrapped altogether. What will IA do then?.

1. Russia is one of the worlds largest arms exporters.
2. Again valid if T90 is inferior to enemy tanks. Evidently it is not so.

Russia being world's largest arms exporters has nothing to do with T-90 tanks being made for cold climes. We had to indigenize them to our Indian conditions to make them perform in hot conditions.

Arjun failed even after being in development for 3 decades forcing us to buy T90s.
And again failed, forcing us to upgrade T72s.
And now that it has passed its going to be ordered.
but Infrastructure needs to be built.
Production numbers are going to be low.
Quality and performance has to be continually monitored.
It has 40-80% imported components, vagaries of pricing and delivery. Etc. Etc.

Harping about previous failures of Arjun bring nothing to the table. What is important is present where Arjun has come on the top. The point that people here are making is "Why to buy more T-90s when we can produce our own Arjuns?". It will help not only bringing about infrastructure and ecosystem required for making better tanks in future which are customized to Indian conditions. If we keep continue buying T-90, not only we lose foreign exchange, we also lose jobs that would be generated if we were to produce more Arjun tanks.

Regarding production numbers T-90 tanks have no upper hand than Arjun has, so that point is moot.

Arjun has around 50% imported products but that will go down once the scale of production for Arjuns is increased and it will make sense for us to produce the imported products indigenously.
---

T90 is the reason why Arjun's outcome doesn't affect our national security.

T-90 has been the reason for some time but not anymore. Army has the choice of choosing a better Arjun over T-90 without compromising national security.

 

[sayareakd]

Absolutely logical fallacies.

1. You fail an exam, then again fail an exam but on the third attempt pass. Does it mean you had passed in earlier attempts ?

no, but you get passing certificate..........

 

[Daredevil]

Arjun: News and Discussions II

News and Discussion about Arjun MBT.

Old thread is here

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions

Blast away!!!

 

[Daredevil]

The New Arjun thread is here

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?9558-Arjun-News-and-Discussions-II

Continue discussion there.

Thanks

 

[Singh]

I'm not talking about T-90 being inferior. I'm only saying that T-90 doesn't bring any distinct advantages and superiority over Pakistani Al-Khalids. This is not we want our Army to equipped with. We want them to have more superior Tanks with better accuracy and protection which will give superiority over Pak army and the answer is Arjun not T-90.

Battle of Asal Uttar ? On-paper dilettante comparison means nothing in the real world. IA and PA both know that.

We have been hearing T-95 for many years but nothing came out and what with recent news coming about it getting scrapped altogether. What will IA do then?.

T95's been scraped ergo Arjun. And I have explained why this is a good decision in my posts

Russia being world's largest arms exporters has nothing to do with T-90 tanks being made for cold climes. We had to indigenize them to our Indian conditions to make them perform in hot conditions.

Except issues with some non-Russian components I have not heard of any major issues with T90s and Heat. Many ME countries operate Russian armour no issues there.

Harping about previous failures of Arjun bring nothing to the table. What is important is present where Arjun has come on the top. The point that people here are making is "Why to buy more T-90s when we can produce our own Arjuns?". It will help not only bringing about infrastructure and ecosystem required for making better tanks in future which are customized to Indian conditions. If we keep continue buying T-90, not only we lose foreign exchange, we also lose jobs that would be generated if we were to produce more Arjun tanks.
Regarding production numbers T-90 tanks have no upper hand than Arjun has, so that point is moot.
Arjun has around 50% imported products but that will go down once the scale of production for Arjuns is increased and it will make sense for us to produce the imported products indigenously.T-90 has been the reason for some time but not anymore. Army has the choice of choosing a better Arjun over T-90 without compromising national security.

Those people would not have commented if they knew Arjun has over 60-80% imported content. Why would a company give domestic rights for its products to India ? What if there are sanctions ? What if domestic products don't match, cost too much ? Too many vagaries. Wishful thinking.
Production numbers going to be low ad infinitum. T90 will be the numbers backbone.

 

[gogbot]

Let me impress upon you the Army's urgency and nervousness.

PA was upgrading Armor, PA had bought T80s.
Arjun was ~3 decades into development and still nowhere in sight. T90 was the most logical option.
More T90s were again ordered only when Arjun failed to impress. Again it was a logical decision.

there is a difference between stop gaps and neglect .

T-90 was a stop gap for a delayed Arjun , it was not its replacement.
Even if that's how things have turned out.

The Arjun and its future variants , such as the mk-2 such be the backbone of the armed forces .
inducting the Arjun in sufficient numbers , say 500+ and then setting out to develop the mk-2 , creates a base of logistics and infrastructure that the Arjun mk-2 can take advantage of.

It also mean the Army has a permanent vested interest in the Arjun series.

And the mk2 and mk3 will receive far greater support

Israel, Russia happy with their MBTs, DRDO's hands full and record less than stellar. Going to operate 3 types of MBTs in huge numbers. We aren't getting a NG MBT anytime soon.

Every piece of indigenous equipment , more than 90% comes of of DRDO's lab's.
It is unfair of you , to critique their record, especially since the tank is already in production and inducted.

Everything DRDO has done on their 1.5 billion dollar budget , has been an accomplishment.

Dump the T-72 if we cant have 3 MBT's .

 

[Singh]

there is a difference between stop gaps and neglect .

T-90 was a stop gap for a delayed Arjun , it was not its replacement.
Even if that's how things have turned out.

Absolutely false.
Army purchased T90 in response to T80 acquisition. Not as a stop gap for a generic requirement.
How was the Army to know that Arjun would finally succeed after over 30 years in development ? And with the sanctions placed after nuclear tests.

The Arjun and its future variants , such as the mk-2 such be the backbone of the armed forces .
inducting the Arjun in sufficient numbers , say 500+ and then setting out to develop the mk-2 , creates a base of logistics and infrastructure that the Arjun mk-2 can take advantage of.
It also mean the Army has a permanent vested interest in the Arjun series.
And the mk2 and mk3 will receive far greater support

I would not like to speculate on the future. Lets see what kinds of numbers DRDO can produce first. I would however not be surprised if the NG MBT is built with a foreign partner.

Every piece of indigenous equipment , more than 90% comes of of DRDO's lab's.
It is unfair of you , to critique their record, especially since the tank is already in production and inducted.
Everything DRDO has done on their 1.5 billion dollar budget , has been an accomplishment.
Dump the T-72 if we cant have 3 MBT's .

When it comes to Arjun, DRDO has tremendously benefited from foreign assistance (for eg. Israeli help for Armour, KFM for tank design) and foreign components which are almost 60% of the tank, allowing to build a good tank after 4 decades of development.

 

[gogbot]

Absolutely false.
Army purchased T90 in response to T80 acquisition. Not as a stop gap for a generic requirement.

I was speaking outlook here , there are indigenous goals that need to be met , for the defence requirement.

When you have an in house option , why is that it gets sidelined and imports preferred.

Its not a matter of quality or performance. Arjun is as capable if not more.

The Army should put the Arjun at the front of its modernisation plans , not a 124 capped order.

How was the Army to know that Arjun would finally succeed after over 30 years in development ? And with the sanctions placed after nuclear tests.

Fine , well enough.

But why was the order capped at 124.

Had the trials at DRDO's insistence not been carried out this would have been the case for good.

I would not like to speculate on the future. Lets see what kinds of numbers DRDO can produce first. I would however not be surprised if the NG MBT is built with a foreign partner.

DRDO has said purchasing at least 500 tanks will allow for the production lines to stabilise and work on a new tank to begin. That needs to happen , The Army has to show cooperation in such efforts.

When it comes to Arjun, DRDO has tremendously benefited from foreign assistance (for eg. Israeli help for Armour, KFM for tank design) and foreign components which are almost 60% of the tank, allowing to build a good tank after 4 decades of development.

Don't be that guy.

I have enough of this educating people about how bureaucratic nature of India's development system ,
Delays is getting most programmes of the ground.

and the financial issues of the 80's and 90's . and technology denial regime placed on India.

And of course the problem of creeping requirements.

We both can guess how much time for those 4 decades was actually spent on development.

 

[Singh]

I was speaking outlook here , there are indigenous goals that need to be met , for the defence requirement.
When you have an in house option , why is that it gets sidelined and imports preferred.
Its not a matter of quality or performance. Arjun is as capable if not more.
The Army should put the Arjun at the front of its modernisation plans , not a 124 capped order.

Fine , well enough.
But why was the order capped at 124.
Had the trials at DRDO's insistence not been carried out this would have been the case for good.

I believe orders for more Arjuns will be placed if they have already not been placed.

DRDO has said purchasing at least 500 tanks will allow for the production lines to stabilise and work on a new tank to begin. That needs to happen , The Army has to show cooperation in such efforts.
Don't be that guy.
I have enough of this educating people about how bureaucratic nature of India's development system ,
Delays is getting most programmes of the ground.
and the financial issues of the 80's and 90's . and technology denial regime placed on India.
And of course the problem of creeping requirements.
We both can guess how much time for those 4 decades was actually spent on development.

And since you know how the system works yet you trust DRDO with a NG MBT?

 

[san]

I believe orders for more Arjuns will be placed if they have already not been placed.



And since you know how the system works yet you trust DRDO with a NG MBT?

For us we have two options. 1) continue to import or 2) trust DRDO to have our own as no other private company is going to design a tank atleast for next 2 decades in India.
Lets say, we cannot trust DRDO, then whom? Russia. The strength of a country depnds not only on the basis of how many weapons it possess or buy but also how quickely it able to add numbers for a long duration time. During Kargil, we have to beg ( with money) Israel & Russia to get 155 howitzer shells, targeting pods etc. What we did if they had say no? Can anybody answer. Is not the armed forces shall prepare for all eventually. Then what will happen if India comes another sanctions - we will run out of spare parts like 90s. KAAL KYA HOOGA, KYA PATTA.
A tank is a low to medium technology if we compared with system like GSLV, PAD, SSN or 5th gen fighter. We shall target to have all low & medium tchnology platform indigenious. But we are doing opposite.

 

[AkhandBharat]

Army to purchase more Arjun Tanks!

Army to purchase more Arjun tanks
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 14, 2010, 0:37 IST
New Arjuns will fire anti-tank missiles; have extra armour protection

The success of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) in desert trials last month is generating additional army orders for a tank that is emerging as a notable research and development (R&D) success. Meanwhile, the Arjun is becoming more capable; the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which designed the Arjun, says that all future Arjuns will incorporate major improvements, including the ability to fire missiles.

Business Standard had reported (Arjun tank outruns, outguns T-90, March 25, 2010) that the Arjun tank had conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90 — the army’s current frontline MBT — in trials conducted in early March by the Bikaner-based 180 Armoured Brigade.

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.
The DRDO, meanwhile, is working overtime to sweeten the deal. S Sundaresh, the DRDO’s Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles through the tank’s main gun; provide extra protection for the tank’s crew through explosive reactive armour, or ERA; be fitted with thermal imaging panoramic sights that allow the Arjun’s commander to scan his surroundings even by night; and incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.

“We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005”, pointed out Sundaresh. “It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHAT’s designator into the Arjun’s fire control system.”

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world’s heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

“The ERA will protect the Arjun’s crews from enemy missiles. Initially we will fit the same Russian ERA that protects the T-90 and the T-72. But, we will also develop our own indigenous ERA.”

An early order from the army would be crucial, says the DRDO, for continuity in the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai. The current order of 124 Arjuns will occupy the production line until end-2011. For the next order of Arjuns to hit the production line then, the order would have to be placed now. That would allow 18 months for provisioning of components, such as armour sheets and sub-systems that are manufactured by ancillary suppliers. That period also caters for the purchase of foreign systems, eg the engine from MTU, Germany.

“Continuity is vital for quality control”, explain officials from HVF Avadi. “We have instituted systems for quality control in the current order of Arjuns, which is why they performed so reliably during trials. These systems will wither away if the production line shuts down for lack of orders.”

Since the Arjun’s assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.

 

[gogbot]

And since you know how the system works yet you trust DRDO with a NG MBT?

you know as well as i do there were a unique set of circumstances in play, for what happened in the 80's and 90's
The financial woes , technology denial and the nascent stage of infrastructure available.

This is 2010 nearly 20 years after the fact. All those projects the Missile programmes , tanks , planes , helicopters e.t.c
Have all matured in one way or the other , and for that to have happened in the presence of a technology denial regime , means that the Industrial capability and infrastructure has had to improve enough to get us to this point.
We have a base to work from when we develop new systems , the "Abhay" DRDO IFV in development, makes use of systems and lessons learnt from the Arjun tank , that alone makes the whole process inevitably easer and faster.
The "LCH" based on the "ALH" technology is also a good example.

The Financial woes of the late 80's and early 90's are almost non-existent now.

DRDO as an entity has evolved, so have many other DPSU's , we even have private companies in the defence sector , who if not directly working on their own projects are doing sub-contract work for the DPSU's .
L&T , TATA , MAHINDRA and nearly 5000 other large and small defence companies exist.

While i can speak for the bureaucracy , that may still exist . You question given the new DPP , more focused approach and of course the Greater level of cooperation between DPSU's and the Armed forces. Things have changed , by how much is still a guess.

Understanding how DRDO had so many problems the first time around , building to a technological level from almost scratch.

Today we have a DRDO far more capable , far better funded , one that is far less tied down by politics .

The only major failed project by the DRDO as of yet , is the Trishul missile . which is being used as a base for the Joint missile "Matri" .

So do i trust DRDO , yes.

 

[Singh]

For us we have two options. 1) continue to import or 2) trust DRDO to have our own as no other private company is going to design a tank atleast for next 2 decades in India.
Lets say, we cannot trust DRDO, then whom? Russia. The strength of a country depnds not only on the basis of how many weapons it possess or buy but also how quickely it able to add numbers for a long duration time. During Kargil, we have to beg ( with money) Israel & Russia to get 155 howitzer shells, targeting pods etc. What we did if they had say no? Can anybody answer. Is not the armed forces shall prepare for all eventually. Then what will happen if India comes another sanctions - we will run out of spare parts like 90s. KAAL KYA HOOGA, KYA PATTA.
A tank is a low to medium technology if we compared with system like GSLV, PAD, SSN or 5th gen fighter. We shall target to have all low & medium tchnology platform indigenious. But we are doing opposite.

We have a third option - Joint Development.