Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Agantrope

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OK, today morning a sparrow in front of my house gate (like in BR style, an insider info) said, that IA will go for atleast 300+ arjun in its current form and more order possible if it contains indian product are replaced in it.
 
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ppgj

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The manufacturer claims otherwise... if you still want to believe it . go believe it .. i cannot help it.
as you may have seen there are conflicting sources and hence the confusion. if i am indian army then i will think of the "worst case scenario!!"

The media is always credible ??
when did i say media is always credible??

Let me ask , where did he get this figure of 17.5 crore ?
If it is so true then why does he not publish the proof?
how do i know where he gets his info, what his sources are?? he is the best person to answer that. however media ethics will not permit him to disclose even if he wants to.

however why i beleive him is because the cost he has arrived at for T-90 MBT matches up with any such system available in the market.

now, my point and as i understand his too, is not the actual cost itself. rather the method adopted to show that T-90 tank is cheaper (which it is not) and to subvert and kill Arjun tank which definitely costs more comparing with the imagined cost of T-90.

and the most important question ...

When the T-90 is so susceptible to inflation , is the arjun immune to it ?

Has DRDO built a machine which defies Economics?
who said anything is immune???

i have myself agreed in the past posts Arjuns will cost as much as the revised T-90 cost.

Who is assuring that every new ordered arjun will cost 16.8 crores,? because as far as i know initial arjuns ordered were in mar 2000 , and the cost of defence equipment doubles every 5 years, economy of scale might give a lil respite , but not so much? and please dont gimme bull answers like many equipment will be made indigenous with further orders , because changing equipment means more trials and that is one thing we cannot afford.
IIRC there was never a debate about of Arjun cost as a parameter!! it is the performance which we have been talking about.

what Ajai cracked is just a myth about T-90 being cheaper which it is not.

PS : as for the highlighted portion in red - i have in the past requested you not to get personal. i request you again - please be tolerant even if people are not as knowledgeable as you are. that would be appreciated. if not possible, i would request you to put me in your ignore list. thanks.
 

Soham

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Chill out you guys. Its just a tank. Don't bang your head too much against it, it might crack. ;)
 

notinlove

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just to clarify , bull is a very widely used word these days , and is definitely not considered offensive ..and i certainly did not mean to offend anyone......all i meant was bull=rubbish .. and considering ribbish is outta fashion , bull seems to fit the bill perfectly ... don't be oversensitive now.
 

ppgj

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just to clarify , bull is a very widely used word these days , and is definitely not considered offensive ..and i certainly did not mean to offend anyone......all i meant was bull=rubbish .. and considering ribbish is outta fashion , bull seems to fit the bill perfectly ... don't be oversensitive now.
no problem brother. i don't want to take it any further. i appreciate your clarification. /////////
 

Dark Sorrow

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Regarding LAHAT i contacted few of my sources in IA, they told me that the range of LAHAT is 6+ km though he didnot disclose actual range but he told me during live firing the LAHAT missile being semi-active laser homing is used to engage target only between 2km-5km. He even said above 5km it may suffer various problem(when i asked what kind of problem he refrained from telling).
 

anoop_mig25

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hi whts happening here i heard that Arjun has beaten t-95 and now whats going on.will Arjun will be included in army i mean mer than 200 tanks.thanks
 

Agantrope

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hi whts happening here i heard that Arjun has beaten t-95 and now whats going on.will Arjun will be included in army i mean mer than 200 tanks.thanks
Its not the T95 but T90. Arjun gave a run money to the T90 in the trails that too in the post-spring--pre-summer condition. IA will be operating atleast 400+ tanks by the end of 2020l.
 

enlightened1

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http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-to-purchase-more-arjun-tanks/391862/http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-to-purchase-more-arjun-tanks/391862/

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 14, 2010, 0:37 IST

New Arjuns will fire anti-tank missiles; have extra armour protection

The success of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) in desert trials last month is generating additional army orders for a tank that is emerging as a notable research and development (R&D) success. Meanwhile, the Arjun is becoming more capable; the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which designed the Arjun, says that all future Arjuns will incorporate major improvements, including the ability to fire missiles.

Business Standard had reported (Arjun tank outruns, outguns T-90, March 25, 2010) that the Arjun tank had conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90 — the army’s current frontline MBT — in trials conducted in early March by the Bikaner-based 180 Armoured Brigade.

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.

The DRDO, meanwhile, is working overtime to sweeten the deal. S Sundaresh, the DRDO’s Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles through the tank’s main gun; provide extra protection for the tank’s crew through explosive reactive armour, or ERA; be fitted with thermal imaging panoramic sights that allow the Arjun’s commander to scan his surroundings even by night; and incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.

“We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005”, pointed out Sundaresh. “It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHAT’s designator into the Arjun’s fire control system.”

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world’s heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

“The ERA will protect the Arjun’s crews from enemy missiles. Initially we will fit the same Russian ERA that protects the T-90 and the T-72. But, we will also develop our own indigenous ERA.”


An early order from the army would be crucial, says the DRDO, for continuity in the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai. The current order of 124 Arjuns will occupy the production line until end-2011. For the next order of Arjuns to hit the production line then, the order would have to be placed now. That would allow 18 months for provisioning of components, such as armour sheets and sub-systems that are manufactured by ancillary suppliers. That period also caters for the purchase of foreign systems, eg the engine from MTU, Germany.

“Continuity is vital for quality control”, explain officials from HVF Avadi. “We have instituted systems for quality control in the current order of Arjuns, which is why they performed so reliably during trials. These systems will wither away if the production line shuts down for lack of orders.”

Since the Arjun’s assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.
 

gogbot

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that's good news

But the current production line is not going to be enough.
50 tanks per year is to small we need to raise that to at least a 100.
 

Agantrope

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http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-to-purchase-more-arjun-tanks/391862/http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-to-purchase-more-arjun-tanks/391862/

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 14, 2010, 0:37 IST

New Arjuns will fire anti-tank missiles; have extra armour protection

The success of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) in desert trials last month is generating additional army orders for a tank that is emerging as a notable research and development (R&D) success. Meanwhile, the Arjun is becoming more capable; the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which designed the Arjun, says that all future Arjuns will incorporate major improvements, including the ability to fire missiles.

Business Standard had reported (Arjun tank outruns, outguns T-90, March 25, 2010) that the Arjun tank had conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90 — the army’s current frontline MBT — in trials conducted in early March by the Bikaner-based 180 Armoured Brigade.

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.

The DRDO, meanwhile, is working overtime to sweeten the deal. S Sundaresh, the DRDO’s Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles through the tank’s main gun; provide extra protection for the tank’s crew through explosive reactive armour, or ERA; be fitted with thermal imaging panoramic sights that allow the Arjun’s commander to scan his surroundings even by night; and incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.

“We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005”, pointed out Sundaresh. “It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHAT’s designator into the Arjun’s fire control system.”

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world’s heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

“The ERA will protect the Arjun’s crews from enemy missiles. Initially we will fit the same Russian ERA that protects the T-90 and the T-72. But, we will also develop our own indigenous ERA.”


An early order from the army would be crucial, says the DRDO, for continuity in the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai. The current order of 124 Arjuns will occupy the production line until end-2011. For the next order of Arjuns to hit the production line then, the order would have to be placed now. That would allow 18 months for provisioning of components, such as armour sheets and sub-systems that are manufactured by ancillary suppliers. That period also caters for the purchase of foreign systems, eg the engine from MTU, Germany.

“Continuity is vital for quality control”, explain officials from HVF Avadi. “We have instituted systems for quality control in the current order of Arjuns, which is why they performed so reliably during trials. These systems will wither away if the production line shuts down for lack of orders.”

Since the Arjun’s assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.
Oh.. my bad, arjun is building his body and increasing his weight. Why cant they try something with Alloy-Ceramics as like in the Type-90 of the Japanese tank which can reduce the weight by 5-7 tonnes?
 
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plugwater

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Can anyone tell about the 1500Hp Engine? Is it a indigenous one or from Germany?
 

Agantrope

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Can anyone tell about the 1500Hp Engine? Is it a indigenous one or from Germany?
As per my inside info, This 1500BHP engine will power the Arjun from 251st tank, till then 1400BHP MTU will power arjuns. 1500BHP will be a indigenous one and the DRDO was working in that some times back.
 

nitesh

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guys I wiant to hold my horses till IA actually confirms the order but this is really encouraging first IA accepting Akash and now Arjun finally these projects are getting matured
 

ppgj

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this is good news and i hope the army orders in numbers!! did it have anything to do with T-95 cancellation?? they must have been hoping for it going by their history. any way good that the army is "seeing reason" atleast now.

however till the orders come in ink we need to wait.

Can anyone tell about the 1500Hp Engine? Is it a indigenous one or from Germany?
Manc, as of now the engine is still 1400hp though DRDO is working IMO to get the engine from cummins (kirloskar) which will be 1500hp.

however what they have done to the present 1400hp engine is mating an indian Turbo Charger which supposedly gives additional 100hp. there was an old report alluding to that. it does not talk about extra 100 hp but is talked about in various fora.

Power is derived from the German-based MTU 838 Ka 501-series turbocharged, water-cooled, diesel-fueled engine generating some 1,400 horsepower tied to the German-based Renk transmission system. This powerplant is mated to an Indian-produced turbocharger allowing for speeds of 72 kilometers-per-hour with a range of 200 kilometers. A more powerful 1,500 horsepower engine was also in the works at one time.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=81
 

Singh

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Interesting developments -

Timeline Perspective

70s-90s
Arjun programme initiated
T72 ordered

90s-00s
Arjun nowhere in sight.
Pak orders T80.
T90 ordered.

00s
Arjun fails trials
More T90 ordered.
Arjun fails trials
Call for NG MBT with Russia
T72 upgrade ordered
Russia cancels T95
IA impressed with Arjun.
 

gogbot

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Interesting developments -

Timeline Perspective

70s-90s
Arjun programme initiated
T72 ordered

90s-00s
Arjun nowhere in sight.
Pak orders T80.
T90 ordered.

00s
Arjun fails trials
More T90 ordered.
Arjun fails trials
Call for NG MBT with Russia
T72 upgrade ordered
Russia cancels T95
IA impressed with Arjun.
Why are you so insistent on believing that the Arjun is no good. ?

At one point , i would of let it go as your faith in the armed forces knowing what's best.

But now even if the Army changes its stand on the Arjun MBT. you are not ready to accept that verdict , and now you cite

Russia cancels T95
IA impressed with Arjun.
New of the Arjuns success at the trials against the T-90 has been leaking out since March, that too the trials them selves went through numerous Delays.

Reports of the T-95's supposed cancellation has only surfaced this month.

And to top it all of the IA has clearly said that it would induct no new tank till 2020.

Call for NG MBT with Russia
other way around Russia was the one who called for the NG MBT .
And their were no reports saying India accepted the Russian offer .
Only reports saying that IA was looking for a NG MBT

And recent reports suggest the IA , has yet to even frame the specifications for the NG MBT .
Which have yet to be given to DRDO.
 
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nandu

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'New' Arjuns to fire anti-tank missiles for Indian Army

New Delhi: The success of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) in desert trials last month is generating additional army orders for a tank that is emerging as a notable research and development (R&D) success.

Meanwhile, the Arjun is becoming more capable; the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which designed the Arjun, says that all future Arjuns will incorporate major improvements, including the ability to fire missiles.

Business Standard had reported that the Arjun tank had conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90 -- the army's current frontline MBT -- in trials conducted in early March by the Bikaner-based 180 Armoured Brigade.

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.

The DRDO, meanwhile, is working overtime to sweeten the deal. S Sundaresh, the DRDO's Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles through the tank's main gun; provide extra protection for the tank's crew through explosive reactive armour, or ERA; be fitted with thermal imaging panoramic sights that allow the Arjun's commander to scan his surroundings even by night; and incorporate at least seven other improvements over the current Arjuns.

"We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005", pointed out Sundaresh. "It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHAT's designator into the Arjun's fire control system."

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world's heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

"The ERA will protect the Arjun's crews from enemy missiles. Initially we will fit the same Russian ERA that protects the T-90 and the T-72. But, we will also develop our own indigenous ERA."

An early order from the army would be crucial, says the DRDO, for continuity in the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai. The current order of 124 Arjuns will occupy the production line until end-2011. For the next order of Arjuns to hit the production line then, the order would have to be placed now. That would allow 18 months for provisioning of components, such as armour sheets and sub-systems that are manufactured by ancillary suppliers. That period also caters for the purchase of foreign systems, eg the engine from MTU, Germany.

"Continuity is vital for quality control", explain officials from HVF Avadi. "We have instituted systems for quality control in the current order of Arjuns, which is why they performed so reliably during trials. These systems will wither away if the production line shuts down for lack of orders."

Since the Arjun's assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.

http://news.in.msn.com/internalsecurity/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3812118&page=0
 

Singh

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Why are you so insistent on believing that the Arjun is no good. ?
I am always insisting that T90 is good. You can interpret this is in any way.

At one point , i would of let it go as your faith in the armed forces knowing what's best.
But now even if the Army changes its stand on the Arjun MBT. you are not ready to accept that verdict , and now you cite
New of the Arjuns success at the trials against the T-90 has been leaking out since March, that too the trials them selves went through numerous Delays.
Reports of the T-95's supposed cancellation has only surfaced this month.
And to top it all of the IA has clearly said that it would induct no new tank till 2020.
Armed forces have to make do with what they have. If they wouldn't have ordered T90 back in the day and if we had to fight a war today ?

And T90 is a damn fine tank.And sufficient as well. And Greater operational efficiency if there is 1 particular type or family type of tank. Agreed ?

Arjun's biggest failure - its untimely delivery
Arjun's lucky break - cancellation of T95.

other way around Russia was the one who called for the NG MBT .
And their were no reports saying India accepted the Russian offer .
Only reports saying that IA was looking for a NG MBT
And recent reports suggest the IA , has yet to even frame the specifications for the NG MBT .
Which have yet to be given to DRDO.
NG MBT talks have been going on for quite some time.

You are missing the important point here.
Russia by cancelling T95 have signalled that T90 is sufficient and there is no threat assessment necessitating a NG MBT anytime soon. T90 can handle all the threats. Russia is a huge exporter. If it signals that no new MBT required means no new MBT required. IA has picked up on this.

If Arjun turns out to be "better" than T90 than going ahead with Arjun makes sense because no new Tank type is coming out anytime soon. We can bolster our numbers, maintain a bigger in operation armour number and also improve our overall armour quality and capability level. And now we can even think about investing in upgrading infrastructure/logistics for Arjun like heavy tanks.
 

gogbot

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I am always insisting that T90 is good. You can interpret this is in any way.



Armed forces have to make do with what they have. If they wouldn't have ordered T90 back in the day and if we had to fight a war today ?

And T90 is a damn fine tank.And sufficient as well. And Greater operational efficiency if there is 1 particular type or family type of tank. Agreed ?
My point always was that T-90 is good.

Arjun is also good . By Arjun being a in house development , needs support from our armed forces.

they want 1500 T-90 i say wonderful. It never matter to me if it was better than the T-90, but circumstances demanded that was how the Arjun had to prove it self

My only issue was with the lack of numbers when it came to the Arjun.
It met all its requirements set out by the IA and only received a petty order of 124 .
they had to order at least 500 tanks , just to justify the cost in development.

Why was the order so low ?
The production models that participated in the trials were the same as the first Arjuns of the production lines. Meaning those tanks , that were made first had no problems or issues. And were the same tanks that trumped the T-90's.
If so then why do we have only 124 of them.

500 + order would be the minimum order the IA has to do.

Arjun's biggest failure - its untimely delivery
I agree .

But its the Army fault as well for procrastination when it came to the Arjun's trials

[/QUOTE]

Arjun's lucky break - cancellation of T95.
perhaps

NG MBT talks have been going on for quite some time.

You are missing the important point here.
Russia by cancelling T95 have signalled that T90 is sufficient and there is no threat assessment necessitating a NG MBT anytime soon. T90 can handle all the threats. Russia is a huge exporter. If it signals that no new MBT required means no new MBT required. IA has picked up on this.

If Arjun turns out to be "better" than T90 than going ahead with Arjun makes sense because no new Tank type is coming out anytime soon. We can bolster our numbers, maintain a bigger in operation armour number and also improve our overall armour quality and capability level. And now we can even think about investing in upgrading infrastructure/logistics for Arjun like heavy tanks.
That is an interesting point you make.

but like i said the IA does want a NG MBT ,

But it has no plans of acquiring it before 2020.

The next 10 years was always free for more Arjun's.
 

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