Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[notinlove]

I think you should do your homework before. The price of Rs. 110 mil. you gave was of 2001 and it become Rs. 120 mil. in 2006 and this is 2010. You can expect increase in price. All this price are just manufacturing price. You should also add the extra money spent to acquire ToT for barel, AC units brought, Thermal Sights and several such sub-system. There are even rumors that we don't have ToT for ERA. It will cost more to get APS.

Boy , you should really stop using that homework word , i aint Soham .. and i hate profs to the core.......about the price. did you ever stop to think why is the same tank made in india is costlier than one made in russia when we all know that india is a lot cheaper? because ToT costs are included in the price we haven't paid anything specifically for the ToT. Thermal sights are also included in the price only AC units were bought separately, what other "sub-systems" are you talking about? and please don't say APS now.

by the way this brings a very important point forward.. why should we not consider the program cost in the price of arjun as well?

Just search on google you will get all your proof.
Here is a link

Minister hints at sabotage in Arjun tank trials
As a matter of fact IA never commented on this issue.

well considering he didn't even knew that the problem was with the transmission and not the engine , it's hard to believe his words , and if YOU GOOGLE .. you can actually find out that there was a REAL problem with the transmission and not sabotage which the RENK people have supposedly fixed now .
Moreover look at the designation of the minister "minister of state for defence production"
he would do anything to save his skin ... we all know the credibility of indian ministers . IA didn't comment does not mean shit , they cant go on and explain every bloody rumour that comes there way , even more the minister has not said that there is sabotage .. he has said that the "possiblity should be examined" which again does not mean SHIT.

Any article on net will tell you Arjun is better protected than T-90, forget article any of your fellow DFI member will tell you the same. IT IS A GLOBALY ACCEPTED FACT THAT ARJUN IS BETTER PROTECTED THAN T-90 AND HAS BETTER CREW SAFTY MEASURES.
Stop arguging for stake of arguging.

In which GLOBE? the Globe of your dreams.. you should actually go to forums across the globe and check out what people out of india actually think of T-90's armour before making it a globally accepted fact. if you are naive enough to accept every thing you read as the gospel truth without actually trying to verify or question it then i really can't help you.but i am not going to change my approach jut cos you don't like it.

Do you even know the fact that IA returns a huge part of the allocated budget back to MoF at the end of fiscal year and yes INDIA CAN AFFORD A BMW. Please come out of the picture where india is cash straved. That was back in 90s. Just look at MMRCA competition.

the decisions to buy the tanks and the doctrine was made in 2000, why don't you go and check india's financial condition back then, i am sure you would shit your pants, moreover do you have any idea what is the public debt figure that we are running right now and what are the implications?just because our neighbours are trying to jump in a well with astounding defence budget to GDP ratio means we have to jump in there too.

Then why are we still buying a 10 year old tank.

because we bought them 10 years back!!!

Yes 50mm more penetration of RHA is big deal. One layer of protection is of that size.

would depend a lot on tank and condition .. but yeah i agree it is 50mm more than refleks.

 

[ppgj]

i suggest you read your own source once again , the figures you have provided are for T-84 and not T-80UD .. your own source explicitly says T-80UD has a 1000 hp engine.

as for ERA there is hardly any proof that they have done anything in that field .. and to say that they would have made comparable progress to the russians , in a field in which they have been active since the sixties is profanity.

then how do you explain the power/wt. ratio??

you can read too. T-84 is the ukrainian name for T-80UD upgraded with a better 1200hp diesel engine and ERA that is all. pakistan got the upgraded one. you call it T-84 or upgraded T-80UD. both are same.

from soviet times it is the practice to name the same machine with different names for export/local use with minor changes. this applies to aircrafts/tanks. checkout the migs/sukhois...

i have in the past given links (may in the same thread or the AL-khalid tank thread) which say - pakistan, made sure ukraine upgrades their engine on the T-80 UD. will check out and repost later.

also -

The T-84 Main Battle Tank was publicly presented in United Arabian Emirates in 1995 during international armament exhibition. The new tank called interest in the Pakistan Army and after a long negotiations there was made an agreement to sell 320 T-84 Main Battle Tanks for Pakistan.

http://www.enemyforces.net/tanks/t84.htm

 

[ppgj]

When you are making a comparative analysis of price then you cannot really count the Shtora or APS in it .. because arjun does not have one , so if you add one to T-90 you have to add one to Arjun .. so no difference in price there ............

Now other than the AC .. what are the so called mysterious "Key systems" that are missing ? may i know? i doubt the AC costs 5.5 crores.

Edit : and BTW , everyone knows the real reason why the Shtora was not procured , we don't need conspiracy theories from "one of the handful of india's best known defence journalists."

ofcourse Arjun does not sport APS as of now. with APS it will cost as much as T-90. no doubts here. however that cost will go down when economic scale of production kicks in because it uses raw materials from india where as T-90 is assembled as of now under license where in SKD kits and later CKD kits will be imported. no chance of cost going down.

as for key systems - other than shtora, AC.. APU comes to mind.

 

[chackojoseph]

may i know what are these special modular features?AFAIK all modern MBT's use some or the other sort of modular design.


In a similar way they would have to have more support vehicles when they are using the arjun , so both have their advantages and disadvantages , no free lunch

T-90 has modularity? I would be interested to know.

Can you also tell how many vehicles are there for t-90 combat support and how many Arjuns will use?

 

[ppgj]

Actually the info is quite open source
http://www.iai.co.il/31015-37347-en/Business_Areas_Military_Land_Precision_Munitions.aspx?btl=1
IAI only claims the range as 8 km... and any common sense will tell us that this is the max range.. and the max range is obviously from a higher platform i.E a helo...so expecting it to be 8 km from a land based platform . is stretching your imagination a bit too far.
moreover even drdo claims the range of arjun gun as 5 km .. read previous posts.

i have already said range and testing of it etc are details we will not get as open source. at best the ranges quoted are undervalued.

i am not getting into gsqr debates , because i believe that the user holds the right to cancel the project at any point of time he likes if he has paid for the development costs upto that point of time .. and in this case as drdo is a company funded by goverment so the army holds the right to do as it pleases.. i know you'r beliefs are different .. but this is one thing where we would have to agree to disagree

fine.

may i know what are these special modular features?

i have read somewhere that - to change the engine in T-72, you need to remove the turret!! which takes almost the whole day and T-90 being a modified T-72 will IMO, be no different. where as Arjun's engine will be a matter of 45 minutes!!

With the help of a special filter system that keeps out dust, the tank can operate in the desert. Its cables and connections are protected from dust and it has a provision for deflogging the radiator and heat exchangers. Dr. Natarajan said: "The engine will never be shut down even in the most critical conditions. This addresses the heat transfer phenomenon... The tank, without air-conditioning, can dissipate heat." Arjun's design is modular, including that of the weapon system, turret and the power pack. "You can change the power pack in the field in 45 minutes. Elsewhere, it takes 14 hours," Dr. Natarajan said.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2117/stories/20040827006113300.htm

i have also given a link in the past of Broadsword article where the 43RD Regiment which operates the Arjun testifies to it and praises it.

AFAIK all modern MBT's use some or the other sort of modular design.

meaning T-90 is modular!! explain.

In a similar way they would have to have more support vehicles when they are using the arjun , so both have their advantages and disadvantages , no free lunch

elaborate.

There is no point in agreeing or disagreeing , its not operational , and until it is , don't count it as a part of arjun.

as has been said Arjun does not need ERA. so NERA would be put if needed in future. or may be they will go on T-72/T-90 in the coming days.

why don't you prove that it is 17.5 crore, without support vehicles.

Ajai shukla has already proven it. you were saying 17.5 crore includes the support vehicles, which, was contested by me and others.

 

[notinlove]

then how do you explain the power/wt. ratio??

you can read too. T-84 is the ukrainian name for T-80UD upgraded with a better 1200hp diesel engine and ERA that is all. pakistan got the upgraded one. you call it T-84 or upgraded T-80UD. both are same.

from soviet times it is the practice to name the same machine with different names for export/local use with minor changes. this applies to aircrafts/tanks. checkout the migs/sukhois...

i have in the past given links (may in the same thread or the AL-khalid tank thread) which say - pakistan, made sure ukraine upgrades their engine on the T-80 UD. will check out and repost later.

also -



http://www.enemyforces.net/tanks/t84.htm

i don't know what youe source is ... but here is the official site of the KMDB design beaureau which MADE THE T-80UD

Engine Model 6TD-1 twin-stroke, multi-fuel, liquid-cooled 6-cylinder diesel engine, fuel injected, developing 1,000 hp at 2,600 rpm
.
.
.

In 1996 Pakistan placed a contract with Ukraine for the supply of 320 T-80UDs.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t80ud.php

 

[notinlove]

ofcourse Arjun does not sport APS as of now. with APS it will cost as much as T-90. no doubts here. however that cost will go down when economic scale of production kicks in because it uses raw materials from india where as T-90 is assembled as of now under license where in SKD kits and later CKD kits will be imported. no chance of cost going down.

as for key systems - other than shtora, AC.. APU comes to mind.

an auxilary generator costs 16 lakhs .. according to your very own Mr.Shukla , i don't think an AC would be too far off .. peanuts i would say. Doesn't make any difference

 

[notinlove]

T-90 has modularity? I would be interested to know.

Yep, the engine can be taken out and repaired or replaced in quite a short time , a tank crew during the malaysia trials took out the engine repaired it and replaced it in just 4 hours in actual scenario just with the help of ropes , i suppose it would take a lot less to just replace the engine with proper tools , somewhere close to the time being claimed for the arjun .

The gun can be removed without dismantling the turret and the ERA is obviously modular.

Can you also tell how many vehicles are there for t-90 combat support and how many Arjuns will use?

Arjun guzzles more fuel and has lesser range too which implies more replenishment vehicles, a heavier tank needs heavier BLT's which require either more vehicles or heavier vehicles in any case the support vehicles would be more . this is all common sense actually.

 

[notinlove]

i have already said range and testing of it etc are details we will not get as open source. at best the ranges quoted are undervalued.

What ever you choose to believe. i can also choose to believe that the range is grossly overstated . i believe what the manufacture is claiming that's all

i have read somewhere that - to change the engine in T-72, you need to remove the turret!! which takes almost the whole day and T-90 being a modified T-72 will IMO, be no different. where as Arjun's engine will be a matter of 45 minutes!!


http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2117/stories/20040827006113300.htm

i have also given a link in the past of Broadsword article where the 43RD Regiment which operates the Arjun testifies to it and praises it.

no it is not required to take out the turret in the T-90 , as replied in previous post , the engine can be taken out quite comfortably.

meaning T-90 is modular!! explain.

Explained in previous post.

elaborate.

elaborated in previous post.

as has been said Arjun does not need ERA. so NERA would be put if needed in future. or may be they will go on T-72/T-90 in the coming days.

Its a great achievement, if they get it operational on time.

Ajai shukla has already proven it. you were saying 17.5 crore includes the support vehicles, which, was contested by me and others.

Ajai shukla has proven SHIT there was no proof , there were just statements .. which i can also make .. like the earth is flat and so on and so forth.

 

[ppgj]

i don't know what youe source is ... but here is the official site of the KMDB design beaureau which MADE THE T-80UD

what my source is?? i gave 2!!

as you can read from both the links i gave T-80 UD originally was 1000hp. but an upgraded 1200hp engine version is what pakistan bought which is also called T-80UD for export version while Ukraine calls it T-84. as simple as that.

 

[ppgj]

an auxilary generator costs 16 lakhs .. according to your very own Mr.Shukla , i don't think an AC would be too far off .. peanuts i would say. Doesn't make any difference

it may cost 16lakhs, 16 rupees or peanuts. point is all inclusive cost is 17.5 crore, as proven by Ajai.

and i am happy he is my own. oooooooooooooooooooo

 

[notinlove]

what my source is?? i gave 2!!

as you can read from both the links i gave T-80 UD originally was 1000hp. but an upgraded 1200hp engine version is what pakistan bought which is also called T-80UD for export version while Ukraine calls it T-84. as simple as that.

The OEM claims that what they sold to pakistan has a 1000 hp engine.. what other proof can i give you

 

[notinlove]

it may cost 16lakhs, 16 rupees or peanuts. point is all inclusive cost is 17.5 crore, as proven by Ajai.

and i am happy he is my own. oooooooooooooooooooo

how can saying something be a proof?

 

[ppgj]

What ever you choose to believe. i can also choose to believe that the range is grossly overstated . i believe what the manufacture is claiming that's all

ofc you can beleive the quoted figures are exaggerated.

no it is not required to take out the turret in the T-90 , as replied in previous post , the engine can be taken out quite comfortably.

may be some member here like Ray sir can can throw more light on this. i have not seen any info in open domain as of now.

Explained in previous post.

elaborated in previous post.

since you have answered Chackojoseph on those points, i hope he responds. will wait.

Its a great achievement, if they get it operational on time.

indeed. it wil be operational unless ofcourse army objects to that too.

Ajai shukla has proven SHIT there was no proof ,

i would greatly appreciate if you respect a contrary view and keep it civil. it is a request.

there were just statements .. which i can also make .. like the earth is flat and so on and so forth.

ofcourse you can and you are free to. point is whether people beleive it or not.

 

[ppgj]

The OEM claims that what they sold to pakistan has a 1000 hp engine.. what other proof can i give you

Pakistan made it a point to ukraine to put 1200hp engine. i have posted the links in this or the al khalid thread. it will be tough getting them but will try and post later.

you have given your link and i have given mine but the reality is Pakistan's T-80UD does have 1200hp engine as per the specs in the link i gave.

even their AL KHALED tank sports 1200/1250hp engine!!

how can saying something be a proof?

unless the army or GOI denies/repudiates it, it will be so.

 

[chackojoseph]

Yep, the engine can be taken out and repaired or replaced in quite a short time , a tank crew during the malaysia trials took out the engine repaired it and replaced it in just 4 hours in actual scenario just with the help of ropes , i suppose it would take a lot less to just replace the engine with proper tools , somewhere close to the time being claimed for the arjun .

The gun can be removed without dismantling the turret and the ERA is obviously modular.

Obviously it can be removed in any of the tanks. But how come its modular? And can you give an example that T-90 engine can be removed/ replaced in a shorter time than Arjun? You are typing contrary to all that is known about T-90 vs Arjun.

 

[chackojoseph]

how can saying something be a proof?

Actually T-90 S costs may exceed what Ajai is saying. But, we need to understand what in your POV is the actual cost. We better go with a known devil than somebody unknown.

 

[san]

India have T90S Bhisma. This is the export version of T90A customised for India. We may say all the bla bla bla of T90 but ultimate we have the export version only. What had happened to " Lion of Babylon" of Iraqi republican gurad. As per several russian source it was blown like tin cane as it is the export version of T72 & downgraded. While selling the tank to Iraqis, I think russian had never said that, it is the downgraded version & will blow if get hit.
So if the same feat happen to our great T9OS, same answer will come like downgraded, export version, not the actual one russia have, no shotra naked bla bla bla etc.
About cost of T90 vs Arjun, I think it is the MOD who should worry rather than IA or other party. Saying that Arjun cost 2 core more compared to T90S, so we shall not induct is one of the most idotic comment we have heard specially considering Arjun developed with Indian brain & T90S developed with russian brain. On weight issue, chinese T99 is almost 58 ton & in future pakistan is surely going to induct it as a successor of T96 deraivative Al-Khalid.
So it seems IA is more concerned about the road bridges of Pakistani side compared to Paki army. If logistic is so much a problem, then it sould be applicable to almost all mojor platforms of IA, IAF & IN. In this logic we shall fly only Mig fighters & forget about any other fighters for MRCA & Navy also should induct Kilo insted of Scorpone otherwise all these will create logistic problem

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

If logistic is so much a problem, then it sould be applicable to almost all mojor platforms of IA, IAF & IN. In this logic we shall fly only Mig fighters & forget about any other fighters for MRCA & Navy also should induct Kilo insted of Scorpone otherwise all these will create logistic problem

What are you saying? you absolutly make no sense why are you comparing army with airforce and navy please talk about arjun tanks here don't compare apples with oranges each branch faces its own challenges but all in all they have to act according to the war doctraine period so please make sense when you post again

 

[enlightened1]

insider news from BRF

i have had a sparrow telling me this morning T90s got around 34% shot on target while on move during the afternoon session
while Arjuns had only 1 miss from eleven fired on the move.

another birdie was chirping about the speed or lack of it on T90s while overcoming dunes to a place, Arjun beat them to it by
more than 540 Sec.
all this with few weeks trained crews on Arjun while T90 crews were all vetern (training wise)

the lil birdies further clarifies
T90 hit 9 out of assigned 11 before noon
at noon it was 4 out of assigned 11
during night trials it was 7 out of 15 assigned

Arjun hit 11 out of 11 before noon
10 out of 11 at noon
15 out of 15 during night trial

T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial

Great if true...