Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[bengalraider]

The question is in an animal to animal battle do we face a bull with a bull(where victory is iffy) or do we bring in a rhino(where victory is much more certain) even if the rhino needs a separate truck and more food?

Another interesting thing is that in the largest tank to tank engagement in the subcontinent(battle of assal utter 1965) The IA's skin was saved by heavy armor 51+tons of the British centurions; the IA had better tactics than the PA which had superiority in numbers and quality(the only modern tanks the IA had were the centurions), our heavy armor took the hits and hit back final tally ;32 of ours down to 97 of theirs.
We need to decide whether we go for quality or follow Lenin who once famously said"quantity has a quality all it's own".WW2 proved Lenin right where the superior tigers were ground down by unrelenting waves of T-34's.
However The best tank in the world today (in terms of kills) is the M1 Abrams which has to it's credit 2000+confirmed tank to tank kills(T-54's/55's and 72's) in Iraq while losing only 4 Abrams to enemy fire.

What P2P says is right partly at the moment replacing 2400 T-72's is simply a pipedream ;what we can do however is make a start with around 500 Arjuns ,build a base for the heavy armor, modify our logistics accordingly and at the same time continue development of the design for a future Indian HMBT, so that once we are ready we can induct more heavy hitters.

As history has shown without an overwhelming numerical advantage the heavy tank wins hands down every time.

 

[RPK]

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy\s-armourdeception/384570/


Piercing the army's armour of deception

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 04, 2010, 0:31 IST



Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.



On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month’s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.

 

[ppgj]

I dare you go through the thread and show me any post posted by me which says arjun is crap.

where did i say you did?

i don't get into arjun vs t-90 ever because i don't believe its as objective as people think it is.

objective?? everybody has a subjective view. either it favours T-72 or T-90 or Arjun. everybody is entitled for that. point is which is good and proven and best for the country.

They are not Upgrading all of them at the max 1500(i even doubt that number)

moreover according to 5000 crore total and 5 crore per tank 1000 tanks would be upgraded and estimating the arjun's cost at 20 crores per machine including logistics and era and aps we can get 250 tanks. what should we do about the other 750?

in my view, with Arjun you dont need to replace a tank for a tank. for every 2 T-72's you can induct 1 Arjun because of its capability. the same logistics existing for T-72's will do with minor changes.

We are not as rich as you think sir.you compare our defense spending with usa and say they spend 5 percent and we spend 2 percent but you forget that they are a developed country, they already have a world class infrastructure and other things which we still are to build . we cannot increase our defense spending to 5 percent of our GDP . because that will mean cutting into other things.

how come we are spending 100+ billion dollars on purchases as per reports. did it come from heaven? point is our defence budget hovers about 2-2.5% of gdp. we can take it to 4% without problems. FM's have time and again alluded to additional funds if required by the armed forces in every budget speech.

you say 50 tanks per year . i say let them produce 100 a year it still will take 24 years to fullfill.

you are missing the point. a certain no of newest T-72's you can upgrade. oldest of the T-72's will start phasing out as Arjuns will fill them incrementally over the years. as i said earlier Arjuns pack more punch and hence you don't have to induct tank for tank. lesser number of Arjuns can bring down the cost and logistics. clear?

what should we do in the meanwhile?put 125 mm guns on tata nano?

gift the oldest lot to friendly countries. create a good impression about india. diplomacy!! india has done it in the past. countries like a'stan, nepal, srilanka, bangladesh, maldives etc.. are there.

Dear sir i never argued if logistics could be created or not. i simply m stating that if it would have been created in the past or has to be created in the future it still would cost something wouldn't it?

even upgrading costs too!! point is you can upgrade to a point. what about tank frame? does it have inexhaustible life? Arjuns being new will last a long while they too get into futuristic mode.

besides you create indigenous capabilities and add to R&D capital apart from creating more indian jobs.

that increment is pretty slow about 24 years . till then should we use current t-72 or upgraded t-72?

have answered above.

shoot the faithful dog because it is a foreign breed and now you can get a bengal tiger? atleast wait for the poor kid to die.

the faithful needs to fight in a battle!! T-72's can't. Arjun can hands down.

upgrade takes lesser time . it is less costly.i am not arguing about not retiring t-72's i am arguing about those that still have 20 years of life on them.

have answered above.

I want to make it absolutely clear that in this thread i am not arguing in favour or against the arjun.

you been doing precisely that.

my point is that ajai shukla is an imbecile and he is just flaming and instigating people. has he given a number as to how much T-72's are being upgraded.

blinkered view. Ajai shukla is one of the only few qualified defence journos in india. he is an army man too. just because you have a view at variance with him does not change the reality.

we have 2400 T-72's. for all we know the army might be upgrading 1000 newer ones and buying arjuns or whatever in lieu of the rest 1400 old ones but according to mr shukla all T-72's are 30 year old and all are useless and all should be thrown in gutter and arjun should be bought in place of them. and this should happen magically overnight. what a joke . now i even doubt he was ever in the army.

as i said above the newest T-72's can be upgraded. all the old ones need to go. it is a national security issue. BTW, read about T-90 in the previous post. T-90 costs 17 crore not 11 crore!! how cunning is the army favouring T-90 against sabotaging Arjun.

 

[kuku]

my point is that ajai shukla is an imbecile and he is just flaming and instigating people. has he given a number as to how much T-72's are being upgraded.

That man has served the nation as a member of the defence forces incharge of protecting the republic.

And the bigger issue here is not one of a Tank, it is of a systematic approach to carry out what is in legal terms called a fraud on the parliament, the authority the people of India choose to run its affairs.

 

[ppgj]

That man has served the nation as a member of the defence forces incharge of protecting the republic.

And the bigger issue here is not one of a Tank, it is of a systematic approach to carry out what is in legal terms called a fraud on the parliament, the authority the people of India choose to run its affairs.

you put it perfectly. i agree with you.

 

[notinlove]

where did i say you did?
objective?? everybody has a subjective view. either it favours T-72 or T-90 or Arjun. everybody is entitled for that. point is which is good and proven and best for the country.

i don't argue but none is proven neither the arjun not the T-90.

in my view, with Arjun you dont need to replace a tank for a tank. for every 2 T-72's you can induct 1 Arjun because of its capability. the same logistics existing for T-72's will do with minor changes.

I respect your view but i don't agree agree with it . for example when hit with a potent weapon like an RPG-29 or an ATGM like pakistans Bakhtar Shikan or konkurs or Nag no tank is going to survive be it the arjun or the T-72 .. at that point of time its always superiority in numbers.More over even if i take your argument then still it makes 250 arjun=500 T-72 upgrades.....where are we going to get the rest of the 500?

how come we are spending 100+ billion dollars on purchases as per reports. did it come from heaven? point is our defence budget hovers about 2-2.5% of gdp. we can take it to 4% without problems. FM's have time and again alluded to additional funds if required by the armed forces in every budget speech.

we spent 100+ billion dollars over 5 years time that is a modest 20 billion per year.our fiscal deficit is 6 percent of GDP and the main task at hand for the goverment is to cut that otherwise if another recession hits the country then we might go the zimbabwe way ,moreover the finance minister has alluded to more funds but has he actually given any .he might be refering to the money that is left over from previous years. farmers are commiting suicide and if you understand politics then you understand that politicians would cater more to them then to army and so on and so forth there are thousand of arguments against extending defence spending. you would agree that as of right now we are walking a tight rope.

you are missing the point. a certain no of newest T-72's you can upgrade. oldest of the T-72's will start phasing out as Arjuns will fill them incrementally over the years. as i said earlier Arjuns pack more punch and hence you don't have to induct tank for tank. lesser number of Arjuns can bring down the cost and logistics. clear?

here you go here are the exact figures

The Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, in turn, is to manufacture another 1,000 T-90S tanks under licence. Then, there is the ongoing upgradation of 692 T-72 tanks to “combat-improved Ajeya standards”
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...in-desert-tank-battle/articleshow/5532011.cms

out of 2418 tanks what is wrong in upgrading 692 tanks??the rest will be phased out anyways, what the army buys in place of them is another debate.

Rather than buying more Arjun tanks, Indian Army to spend billions on refurbishing outdated T-72s
This is what Mr. Shukla said, what does it mean to you? to me it means don't upgrade T-72 buy Arjuns instead.and i argue why not upgrade a small number of T-72? Buy arjun or Buy Battlestar galactica is another issue.

gift the oldest lot to friendly countries. create a good impression about india. diplomacy!! india has done it in the past. countries like a'stan, nepal, srilanka, bangladesh, maldives etc.. are there.

Absolutely. but ajai shukla wants to gift the newest lot too!!!!

even upgrading costs too!! point is you can upgrade to a point. what about tank frame? does it have inexhaustible life? Arjuns being new will last a long while they too get into futuristic mode.

we are only upgrading 692 new ones which still have about 15 years of service life left not the ones whose life has been exhausted.

the faithful needs to fight in a battle!! T-72's can't. Arjun can hands down.

What do you mean by T-72 Can't...I am not comparing T-72 with arjun but what makes you believe an upgraded T-72 will be no match against an Al zarrar or older pakistani and chinese tanks?? why do you have to pit them against the best pakistani and chinese tanks? every country operates a mix of new and old we have t-90 and Arjun to go against their new tanks and we have Upgraded T-72's to go against their Old tanks its just that simple.It's like comparing Indian Mig-29 with pakistani F-16 and saying oh hell we are screwed ... why can't you see we have sukhois too and pakistan has j-7 too.

you been doing precisely that.

Precisely what?

blinkered view. Ajai shukla is one of the only few qualified defence journos in india. he is an army man too. just because you have a view at variance with him does not change the reality.

The Indian Army Generals Are more Qualified than Mr. Shukla . he was an army man they Still are in the army.just because you have a view at variance with them will not change the reality.

as i said above the newest T-72's can be upgraded. all the old ones need to go. it is a national security issue. BTW, read about T-90 in the previous post. T-90 costs 17 crore not 11 crore!! how cunning is the army favouring T-90 against sabotaging Arjun.

This is one point where we do agree. Upgrade the newer ones and retire the old ones.but i don't think ajai shukla agrees

About the new article:
T-90 were purchased in 2001. At that time arjun wasn't any good. If indian army had said that T-90 costs 17.5 crore then they never would have been allowed to buy the tank, it would have extended into an endless debate and red tapism by stupid politicians . either they would have been forced to use upgraded T-72's or an incompetent tank(Arjun of 2001) that too after years of debates and red tapism. Hence i don't see anything wrong with what The Army did ... I rather Appreciate their novel thinking. BUT
I Concede that they fuckd up when it came to French Thermals. They should have checked if they were properly Tropicalised or not.

 

[notinlove]

That man has served the nation as a member of the defence forces incharge of protecting the republic.

The generals and dgmf STILL are a member of the Defence forces incharge of protecting the republic.give them as much if not more respect than Mr shukla.

And the bigger issue here is not one of a Tank, it is of a systematic approach to carry out what is in legal terms called a fraud on the parliament, the authority the people of India choose to run its affairs.

If you call it fraud so be it .. if that is what we have to do to save our borders we shall do it over and over again. what if they had not done that? then we would have been stuck with ONLY upgraded T-72's and Arjun of 2001. Would you have been happy with that? I salute their courage in the face of enemy and in the face of stupid greedy politicians.

 

[p2prada]

That man has served the nation as a member of the defence forces incharge of protecting the republic.

And the bigger issue here is not one of a Tank, it is of a systematic approach to carry out what is in legal terms called a fraud on the parliament, the authority the people of India choose to run its affairs.

What Fraud? The interest in the T-90 was of genuine concern. Had it been simply to make more money then they would have had the best tanks in the world in a competition similar to the MRCA.

Heck who wouldn't want to see such a competition? M1A2, Leclerc, Leopard-2, Merkava 4, Challenger II, T-90 and Arjun pitted against each other for the second biggest arms deal in India.

The HMBTs don't fit our doctrine. Simple as that. Can you tell me out of the above tanks, which one is the most affordable in the long run? Don't forget there should be 1600 of them and not 200 or 300 or 500.

 

[nitesh]

One serious question:

Is arjun built on based of Army GSQR or not?

If we agree that this as yes then there is no point of harping about doctrine or fuel consumption or number of people needed or what ever. It has to be explained why IA does not want the tank built on it's own GSQR please don't bring the point of bridges not able to take up the weight of arjun or railways are able to take less arjun as this has to be thought of before making of GSQR. And please keep this point in to consideration that there is always a START if our DGMF is not willing to take the tank today what guarantee is that it will not come up with similar excuses in the future that oh let's upgrade T 90 now as these are a lot in numbers and wait for some T XX till it comes. The point that needs to be considered is that if we invest in 500 Arjun we will be getting lot of production experience in the bargain and the push for getting the reaming techs like engine. And more then anything else it will be a START for us. 500 Ajrn will be around 10 armored formation (I think the more appropriate term would be tank regiment correct me if I am wrong) for IA (around 45 for one regiment) out of total 60 of IA that is mere 1/6th of the armored formation. I really can't buy the argument that this is going to make IA coffers empty that it will not be able to do anything apart from inducting Arjun. And these can be used to retire some old T 72's which are any way getting replaced by T 90 (as told by some members) and creating all important some extra numbers.

Or if we agree the tank is not built on GSQR then DRDO is a bunch of fools who have done some imaginary work and now forcing it on IA throat. Still DRDO is not a holy cow it has to take it's share of blame for delays but what is the way out now? Again put some mythical requirement on DRDO's head and say if they can't deliver in x years we will go ahead with some t xx because our doctrine is not suited for this new tank, then what is the point of keeping that program running and wasting the money in that if our DGMF is happy in buying only.

 

[kuku]

What Fraud? The interest in the T-90 was of genuine concern. Had it been simply to make more money then they would have had the best tanks in the world in a competition similar to the MRCA.

Heck who wouldn't want to see such a competition? M1A2, Leclerc, Leopard-2, Merkava 4, Challenger II, T-90 and Arjun pitted against each other for the second biggest arms deal in India.

The HMBTs don't fit our doctrine. Simple as that. Can you tell me out of the above tanks, which one is the most affordable in the long run? Don't forget there should be 1600 of them and not 200 or 300 or 500.

Arjun MBT is made to the requirements of the army, they knew the implications of the HMBT, and were ready to induct it.

A MBT designed for very specific attrition battles in Europe while facing a NBC environment, fits the doctrine of another nation planning to use it in a desert a lot, while the tank which is built to the specifications of that nations army (operating in several different scenarios and tested for it) fails to fit in the doctrine, what exactly is this illusive doctrine?

Does the doctrine fits to the equipment, or the equipment fits into the doctrine? Equipment wise HMBTs have now performed all over the world in every conceivable terrain, available infrastructure and weather.

Overall cost of procurement (including the support vehicles) will not show significant difference once the money spent on all the subsystems for the T-90 comes into the equation, required number of crew will be less (b/w 2000-3000 @ 1 per tank) for the T-72, in terms of maintenance the costs will be the same, in terms of support crew costs will be slightly less for the T-72 as no new training facilities have to be opened up. While the domestic tank will be without the cost of technology.

And for the slight difference in cost we get a HMBT with more protection for our soldiers (if that is important), and a far more recent design than the 70s T-72 and its upgrade the T-90 and the difference in costs will come from GoI.

No one can tell you which tank is the most affordable in the real long run unless they operate it, a tank requires maintenance, for the mechanical equipment the costs can be different depending upon the quality of the equipment, for the electrical and electronic equipment almost the same is true.

However its a decision for the army to make, and they shall be left alone if the tank is truly so unique to their requirements.

What i am talking about is the information mentioned in the article, to show the cost of the tank as a certain amount, while showing a capability that will require much more money to integrate on the tank. If this was done in agreement with the Russian agencies then this shows manipulation.

 

[ppgj]

i don't argue but none is proven neither the arjun not the T-90.

if you mean battle proven, yes. thankfully war has not happened but Arjun has proven itself in the past trials after the BLACKBOX was installed to stall the army's sabotage mission.it is accepted it is better than T-90S. since with all upgrades to T-72's can not bring it upto T-90S standard it is wiser to induct Arjuns which are fresh and hence have long life.

New Delhi, July 13 -- The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has installed a black box-like instrument in the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, under development for nearly 36 years, following attempts to "sabotage" its engine. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the winter trial of the Arjun tank a "failure".

Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities.

"The German company Renk AG supplying the engines for the Arjun tank stumbled upon the tinkering with its engines after a complaint from the Indian Army ...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1510430351.html

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-looses-battle-against-arjun-tank-but-will-there-be-arjun-mark-2

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-finds-no-major-defects-with-arjun-tank-during-ex-ashvamegh

I respect your view but i don't agree agree with it .

you are entitled to your view.

for example when hit with a potent weapon like an RPG-29 or an ATGM like pakistans Bakhtar Shikan or konkurs or Nag no tank is going to survive be it the arjun or the T-72 .. at that point of time its always superiority in numbers.More over even if i take your argument then still it makes 250 arjun=500 T-72 upgrades.....where are we going to get the rest of the 500?

point is no machine is not vulnerable. but Arjun with BMS can always be in a better position of the battle situation.

Arjun MBT will have a logical improvement via a Battle Field Management System (BFMS). BFMS will provide information to tank commanders at different levels. This could network with helicopters or UAV’s too.

The BFMS will give the geographical location of the terrain, location of our own troops, location of enemy targets, illuminate targets, help navigation, display the health of tanks, status of ammunition holding in the tank, fuel stock etc.

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt

The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems. "This will help us reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability," they said.

http://www.defencetalk.com/drdo-working-on-additional-capabilities-for-arjun-battle-tank-19268/

plus its accuracy in firing will take down the enemy much before than both T-90 and upgraded T-72.

so the point is whether you want to fight to win or fight to survive/lose?

we spent 100+ billion dollars over 5 years time that is a modest 20 billion per year.our fiscal deficit is 6 percent of GDP and the main task at hand for the goverment is to cut that otherwise if another recession hits the country then we might go the zimbabwe way ,

in the just over RECESSION, we came out unscathed!!! fiscal deficit is something FM's have chosen to keep the momentum of economy going. if they want cut it, they can. but it is not in the interest of the economy. US has the biggest deficits and they are the biggest debtors but they are the biggest spenders on defence!!!

point is national security overrides fiscal discipline. i repeat, money is not a problem.

moreover the finance minister has alluded to more funds but has he actually given any .he might be refering to the money that is left over from previous years.

funny you say that. strange thing is indian armed forces have repeatedly returned back the monies from their budgets to the national exchequer!!!!!! so when they have asked???

out of 2418 tanks what is wrong in upgrading 692 tanks??the rest will be phased out anyways, what the army buys in place of them is another debate.

i have already said this. even if army wants to induct Arjun, it can't happen overnight. it only means you start phasing out the oldest lot and replace them with Arjun. T-72's from the newest lot you can upgrade.

Rather than buying more Arjun tanks, Indian Army to spend billions on refurbishing outdated T-72s
This is what Mr. Shukla said, what does it mean to you? to me it means don't upgrade T-72 buy Arjuns instead.

what is wrong with that.upgraded T-72's can't match up even T-90. he is saying why waste that money? instead use it on Arjun which will be a long term solution. he is not saying phase out all T-72's.

Buy arjun or Buy Battlestar galactica is another issue.

certainly not. the whole point of our debate is induction of Arjun for T-72's. if the army is not interested, why they can't still enunciate their position. instead they are adopting malicious and criminal sabotages and spreading canards. shame on them.

Absolutely. but ajai shukla wants to gift the newest lot too!!!!

ajai shukla has no where said phase out all. he has only said don't upgrade but induct Arjun. that does not mean all T-72's need to go in one go. they obviously will happen incrementally. i am sure that is what he means.

we are only upgrading 692 new ones which still have about 15 years of service life left not the ones whose life has been exhausted.

no problem for me there. but phased out ones need to be replaced with Arjuns.

What do you mean by T-72 Can't...I am not comparing T-72 with arjun but what makes you believe an upgraded T-72 will be no match against an Al zarrar or older pakistani and chinese tanks?? why do you have to pit them against the best pakistani and chinese tanks? every country operates a mix of new and old we have t-90 and Arjun to go against their new tanks and we have Upgraded T-72's to go against their Old tanks its just that simple.

answered above.

It's like comparing Indian Mig-29 with pakistani F-16 and saying oh hell we are screwed ... why can't you see we have sukhois too and pakistan has j-7 too.

as for the first part - actually, it is the other way round. as to your later point i have answered above. some T-72's will exist in addition to Arjuns and T-90's. it is a mix.

Precisely what?

go back and check why i said what i said.

The Indian Army Generals Are more Qualified than Mr. Shukla . he was an army man they Still are in the army.just because you have a view at variance with them will not change the reality.

what about these people? -

“It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it?” says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army’s Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. “India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun.”

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-to-spend-billionsoutdated-t-72-tanks/384449/

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy\s-armourdeception/384570/

are they too in your view, not qualified??

This is one point where we do agree. Upgrade the newer ones and retire the old ones.but i don't think ajai shukla agrees

ajai shukla is veteran. he obviously does not mean phasing out all T-72's.

About the new article:
T-90 were purchased in 2001. At that time arjun wasn't any good. If indian army had said that T-90 costs 17.5 crore then they never would have been allowed to buy the tank, it would have extended into an endless debate and red tapism by stupid politicians . either they would have been forced to use upgraded T-72's or an incompetent tank(Arjun of 2001) that too after years of debates and red tapism. Hence i don't see anything wrong with what The Army did ... I rather Appreciate their novel thinking.

it is not only about the monies. look at the method they adopt for T-90 and how they sabotage Arjun!!

I Concede that they fuckd up when it came to French Thermals. They should have checked if they were properly Tropicalised or not.

the army manufactures problems and makes them a huge issue and refuses Arjun. when they have serious problems like FCS or air conditioning or thermals happen they just push it under carpet.

wow.

 

[kuku]

The generals and dgmf STILL are a member of the Defence forces incharge of protecting the republic.give them as much if not more respect than Mr shukla.

If you call it fraud so be it .. if that is what we have to do to save our borders we shall do it over and over again. what if they had not done that? then we would have been stuck with ONLY upgraded T-72's and Arjun of 2001. Would you have been happy with that? I salute their courage in the face of enemy and in the face of stupid greedy politicians.

WTH, i am talking about you calling him names,

ajai shukla is an imbecile

not about you disagreeing with this opinions.
Grow up, or treat your elders with respect.

Right so why hide the costs of the T-90 while talking of a capability that requires more investment? Its not like there was a option available.

And T-90 is a upgraded T-72, removing the name 72 because of the reputation that tank has in the market doesnot change a thing.

 

[p2prada]

One serious question:

Is arjun built on based of Army GSQR or not?

If we agree that this as yes then there is no point of harping about doctrine or fuel consumption or number of people needed or what ever. It has to be explained why IA does not want the tank built on it's own GSQR please don't bring the point of bridges not able to take up the weight of arjun or railways are able to take less arjun as this has to be thought of before making of GSQR. And please keep this point in to consideration that there is always a START if our DGMF is not willing to take the tank today what guarantee is that it will not come up with similar excuses in the future that oh let's upgrade T 90 now as these are a lot in numbers and wait for some T XX till it comes. The point that needs to be considered is that if we invest in 500 Arjun we will be getting lot of production experience in the bargain and the push for getting the reaming techs like engine. And more then anything else it will be a START for us. 500 Ajrn will be around 10 armored formation (I think the more appropriate term would be tank regiment correct me if I am wrong) for IA (around 45 for one regiment) out of total 60 of IA that is mere 1/6th of the armored formation. I really can't buy the argument that this is going to make IA coffers empty that it will not be able to do anything apart from inducting Arjun. And these can be used to retire some old T 72's which are any way getting replaced by T 90 (as told by some members) and creating all important some extra numbers.

Or if we agree the tank is not built on GSQR then DRDO is a bunch of fools who have done some imaginary work and now forcing it on IA throat. Still DRDO is not a holy cow it has to take it's share of blame for delays but what is the way out now? Again put some mythical requirement on DRDO's head and say if they can't deliver in x years we will go ahead with some t xx because our doctrine is not suited for this new tank, then what is the point of keeping that program running and wasting the money in that if our DGMF is happy in buying only.

You forget an important point. It is the buyers market, not the sellers. Mig Corp made the Mig-35 for us. It is upto us to buy it or not. IA did not make a big deal when they choose the T-90. It was a quick decision, which had been planned previously.

Keeping Arjun type programs running means that DRDO will continuously gain experience in making better tanks. Some day we will induct better versions. But, not now. So, there is no question of wasting money.

 

[Shredder]

Just one stupid question, forgive me ,

1. Whys is the Army so reluctant to Induct Arjun MBT? Is it because they want kickbacks from foreign deals?
2. When are the comparative trials with the T-90 going to begin?
3. What is Arjun MBT currently lacking or what is its malfunctions or problems?

 

[Singh]

From my twitconvo with Lt Gen(R) Panag.

What is indigenous content of Arjun?All maj components r imported.It weighs 60 tons.Tps do not have confidence! It is a white elephant. The only solution is to develop wpn sys as a consortium in collaboration with experienced manufacturers. Kanchan armr is good.But note the weight.60t vs 36 t.The report is based on DRDO brochure.I will take it with a pinch of salt!

Upgraded T-72 w ERA to have adequate protection and will be superior to Arjun. Even Pak uses upgraded T69. Even Spore uses InA discared Amx13 Tanks presently.

T90 world class MBT.

 

[Singh]

Just one stupid question, forgive me ,

1. Whys is the Army so reluctant to Induct Arjun MBT? Is it because they want kickbacks from foreign deals?
2. When are the comparative trials with the T-90 going to begin?
3. What is Arjun MBT currently lacking or what is its malfunctions or problems?

1. It is because DRDO has developed an inferior product. Army is tasked with protection and it has never failed. Compare with DRDO's results and boasts.
2. Trials have been held umpteenth times. New trials in March.
3. Refer to previous test results. And all major components are imported.

 

[Sabir]

If same agency who had said Arjun MBT is incompetent in summer of 2008 took a U -turn in winter of same year and says " it performed admirbly well" then there has to be some doubt about their evaluation process. ( It is debatable what did the magic-some mircles by DRDO or balck-box type devices installed by them to prevent sabotage or possibility of third party auditing)

Army does its duty but that doesnt mean armymen are not susceptible to corruption or strategical blunder. If T 72 is no more compatible with modern tanks, upgradation of them (newer ones of them) should be done only to fill the gap which remains after full utilization of production capity of Arjun. Hope in future such situation will not come to grief .." had we not bother about cost much..."

 

[notinlove]

if you mean battle proven, yes. thankfully war has not happened but Arjun has proven itself in the past trials after the BLACKBOX was installed to stall the army's sabotage mission.it is accepted it is better than T-90S. since with all upgrades to T-72's can not bring it upto T-90S standard it is wiser to induct Arjuns which are fresh and hence have long life.



http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1510430351.html

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-looses-battle-against-arjun-tank-but-will-there-be-arjun-mark-2

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-finds-no-major-defects-with-arjun-tank-during-ex-ashvamegh



you are entitled to your view.



point is no machine is not vulnerable. but Arjun with BMS can always be in a better position of the battle situation.



http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt



http://www.defencetalk.com/drdo-working-on-additional-capabilities-for-arjun-battle-tank-19268/

plus its accuracy in firing will take down the enemy much before than both T-90 and upgraded T-72.

so the point is whether you want to fight to win or fight to survive/lose?



in the just over RECESSION, we came out unscathed!!! fiscal deficit is something FM's have chosen to keep the momentum of economy going. if they want cut it, they can. but it is not in the interest of the economy. US has the biggest deficits and they are the biggest debtors but they are the biggest spenders on defence!!!

point is national security overrides fiscal discipline. i repeat, money is not a problem.



funny you say that. strange thing is indian armed forces have repeatedly returned back the monies from their budgets to the national exchequer!!!!!! so when they have asked???



i have already said this. even if army wants to induct Arjun, it can't happen overnight. it only means you start phasing out the oldest lot and replace them with Arjun. T-72's from the newest lot you can upgrade.



what is wrong with that.upgraded T-72's can't match up even T-90. he is saying why waste that money? instead use it on Arjun which will be a long term solution. he is saying phase out all T-72's.



certainly not. the whole point of our debate is induction of Arjun for T-72's. if the army is not interested, why they can't still enunciate their position. instead they are adopting malicious and criminal sabotages and spreading canards. shame on them.



ajai shukla has no where said phase out all. he has only said don't upgrade but induct Arjun. that does not mean all T-72's need to go in one go. they obviously will happen incrementally. i am sure that is what he means.



no problem for me there. but phased out ones need to be replaced with Arjuns.



answered above.



as for the first part - actually, it is the other way round. as to your later point i have answered above. some T-72's will exist in addition to Arjuns and T-90's. it is a mix.



go back and check why i said what i said.



what about these people? -



http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-to-spend-billionsoutdated-t-72-tanks/384449/



http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy\s-armourdeception/384570/

are they too in your view, not qualified??



ajai shukla is veteran. he obviously does not mean phasing out all T-72's.



it is not only about the monies. look at the method they adopt for T-90 and how they sabotage Arjun!!




the army manufactures problems and makes them a huge issue and refuses Arjun. when they have serious problems like FCS or air conditioning or thermals happen they just push it under carpet.

wow.

Now i really feel like all my effort was not futile.I wrote what i wrote according to what i understand what Mr . shukla means by his article but you interpret him differently. But that interpretation does coincide with my point also that there is no harm in upgrading 692 T-72's doesn't it? if that is so that's all i wanted to bring out. because people started crying foul even before learning the facts as to how many are being upgraded and is there a need for upgradation or not. you can judge that from the initial posts on this forum just after the first article was published.

As for Arjun I never called it a bad tank but i do believe if the army doesn't want it then that is their wish, Its just that in my opinion logistics carry 70% weightage and the abilities of a tank carry 30% weightage whereas in your view its opposite, i believe we both are entitled to our opinions(one thing more you wouldn't have seen me commenting on this because i have no clue about the GSQR's and their changes since 1970 hence i don't comment upon it i would love to read it but don't have the time would read it some day and then we can continue the discussion, who knows i might be on your side then ) , as for the armies opinion its a tug of war between DRDO and Army and only the future will tell who wins .

About the Economy :
Buddy we didn't come out unscathed but yeah relatively less damaged and the only reason was because we had a low fiscal deficit which we could expand through stimulus and provide the industry money. US has a large fiscal deficit that is why they were hit so badly and we were left relatively unharmed. now we need to bring the deficit to pre recessionary levels so that if its a W shaped recession then we are ready for what is about to come, it is our top priority as of now , hence we cannot spend as much on defence as you think.
m done ciao.

 

[p2prada]

Arjun MBT is made to the requirements of the army, they knew the implications of the HMBT, and were ready to induct it.

Arjun was primarily conceived to counter the threat of Pakistan inducting Abrams in the 80s. That threat no longer exists.

Does the doctrine fits to the equipment, or the equipment fits into the doctrine? Equipment wise HMBTs have now performed all over the world in every conceivable terrain, available infrastructure and weather.

Doctrine fits to the equipment. New assets like Attack helis and NCW can be added later. However, the tanks and infantry formations are the backbone of the doctrine. Changing this would mean changing strategy, tactics, logistics, planning, funding..in other words changing everything.

IA has been testing the NCW doctrine since 2002 with proven systems like the T-72 or the T-90. Bringing a new tank in the picture means putting pressure on the fighting abilities of the army. They will need to change a lot in order to fit the HMBTs into the doctrine. Even the US cannot be expected to change to medium tanks from the M1A2. Looking at their economy, they should be changing tanks every other decade. But, they are not. Changing infantry and tank formations would mean reorganizing the entire army. A similar comparison would be changing an entire form of govt. We can have democracy one or 2 decades, dictatorship the next, communism after that, then fascism. Battle Tanks are that essential to a doctrine.

Overall cost of procurement (including the support vehicles) will not show significant difference once the money spent on all the subsystems for the T-90 comes into the equation, required number of crew will be less (b/w 2000-3000 @ 1 per tank) for the T-72, in terms of maintenance the costs will be the same, in terms of support crew costs will be slightly less for the T-72 as no new training facilities have to be opened up. While the domestic tank will be without the cost of technology.

We cannot have an equivalent number of Arjuns as the T-90s anyway. That's nearly 4000 tanks. Only US can afford it as of now. Perhaps when we get a $500Billion+ military budget.

And for the slight difference in cost we get a HMBT with more protection for our soldiers (if that is important), and a far more recent design than the 70s T-72 and its upgrade the T-90 and the difference in costs will come from GoI.

The doctrine requires a specific number of tanks on the field, in the depot and in reserve at all times during a war. Undesirable changes in this number means we are effectively being pushed back, in other words, losing the war. Unfortunately in our doctrine, protection of soldiers is secondary to completing objectives. If a group can be destroyed in exchange for gaining a strategic point, then so be it. We follow the Soviet mentality. Number of dead mean nothing to us, unlike the Western Countries.

No one can tell you which tank is the most affordable in the real long run unless they operate it, a tank requires maintenance, for the mechanical equipment the costs can be different depending upon the quality of the equipment, for the electrical and electronic equipment almost the same is true.

Cost of operating a T series is definitely cheaper than any HMBT. Especially when the HMBT is going to replace the T series. We need to set up infrastructure, train hundreds of tank crews with a new platform, train maintenance crews, train a million soldiers to fight with the tank. Training the soldiers alone would require a decade or more of continuous war exercises. Then synchronizing the new tank with Airforce and Navy. And this is only half done. After this comes the biggest headache of them all. Ensuring critical supplies during war and maintaining the supply lines. All of this is easier said than done. It can only be done once every 40-50 years and not every other decade.

It is impossible to do this with the Arjun right now. The problem is the Army has been accustomed to T-72s since the 80s. Changing them to Arjuns in 2010 and then changing everything all over again for a new generation tank after 2020 is impossible. Even the US is expecting to use Abrams through the next 2 decades.

However its a decision for the army to make, and they shall be left alone if the tank is truly so unique to their requirements.

The T series is very unique to the IA doctrine. And I don't see this changing for the next 10 to 15 years.

Even if we can afford to induct Arjuns, they will be given secondary duties like support or reserve. They can never be used in the frontline and will simply end up as Poster boys for the Army. You cannot expect the Army to come out with a new Cold Start doctrine for the Arjuns now can you?

 

[gb009]

"Unfortunately in our doctrine, protection of soldiers is secondary to completing objectives. If a group can be destroyed in exchange for gaining a strategic point, then so be it. We follow the Soviet mentality. Number of dead mean nothing to us, unlike the Western Countries."
Not trying to be rude, but this seems like the doctrine terrorists and suicide bombers from across the border would have (if they had one). Hopefully this will change someday. After all lives of men protecting our country should not wasted this way in a battle. May be its time we started thinking of changing from soviet mentality to something else.