Well so now Boeing = DRDO and LM= Russia I think both DRDO and Russia carry same flag. I think people are totally missing the point of supporting the home grown product here and trying to justify there point by bringing un related things
how come a project which - the user is not going to implement - could be affordable??
yes. the govt. can not fire. but that holds good even after cancellation of Arjun too. the employees would have been accomodated to other projects because DRDO is a govt organisation. besides saving on Arjun lines, time and money could have used for other projects.
here, 124 are already being inducted.
because F-16 was superior in all aspects. same as Arjun is wrt to T-90.
being end users, they are the people who give specs to design and develop. if they don't need it, they are the people obligated to say - NO, we don't want this. if they don't consider doing it to DRDO, they can certainly do it to the GOI.
borrowing your words - we are not US. we don't have that luxury to continue production when they are not going to be inducted.
if it does not meet their requirements, yes. but in Arjun's case it meets the requirements just as in LCA.
This is not a question of a home grown product. DRDO is still getting its way. The Arjuns will be further developed irrespective of the army buying it or not. DRDO is still learning to develop a tank and Arjun is still not ready. The Mk2 version will bring it closer to the other operational HMBTs like Abrams and Leopard-2. Arjun offers nothing new to our inventory and is a big burden(pun intended). It can shoot similar missiles, similar tank rounds, similar offensive and defensive capabilities and most importantly similar technology. It is almost identical to the T-90. The only added advantage of the Arjun is separate ammo compartment, hydro-pneumatic suspensions and a better FCS. The disadvantages are simply too many compared to the T-90 to make such a difference.
Unlike other countries we are still learning. So, learning has no costs.
Which other project. Do you mean a whole new tank project? That would be useless.
It was tokenism. Just for show. Do you really think 124 tanks will be used in a war?
I am not talking about F-16. But, I am talking about the superior F-14 which was phased out for an inferior F-18. Why? Costs matter.
So what!! The end user is not obligated to buy it.
They don't want to do it. DRDO forced a trial and the Govt had to relent. Tell the Army to pull out of the trials and they gladly will. The army cannot say No to the govt.
You forget the context. Even the US happily cancel projects whenever market demands it. The YAL-1 may or will be cancelled. The F-22 production has been stopped. The Zumwalt procurement has been reduced, etc etc. All these are home grown projects, they fit the requirements but are pretty much useless compared to existing inferior systems from budget point of view.
Can you tell me what in the Arjun is soo good that it is worth kicking out all the other tanks for its induction?
Funding controls procurement by the user.
Cancelling the project at that stage meant that all the development teams scientists, engineers and mechanics went to other projects, cancelling the project at production stage meant that the heavy vehicle plants arjun process stops and employees are reassigned to other projects (suffering loss of project specific manufacturing equipment, and not all the nuts, screws and bolts), T-90 production lines would need people to churn out the tanks.
Boeing won a tender to develop the YF-23 for the advanced tactical fighter requirement and they got to keep all the research, Private sector needs a government that is not in direct conflict with them by running its own R&D and production facilities, as we come out of the near communist economy structure private sector keeps on developing in its technical capability.
Mk2 version can be complete in the same time it will take to upgrade the T-90 to current generation standards with BMS, Active protection, better engine, new ERA etc.
Well so 500 arjun's will just empty whole of IA of everything else? What are you saying here? Arjun firese similar missiles? Till now I was thinking that LAHAT is a different missile. Rifled guns use same ammo as smooth bore gun? my source is this: http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf and T 90 has better crew protection then arjun you just turned the theory upside down which is having separate compartment for ammo gives more crew protection
. And by your argument MK2 will be more heavy so it converts to more fuel guzzling more more bogie's needed to transport and all so again it will not be use ful for the "doctrine" then there is no point in making it as it will be rejected again. Now please don't tell that suddenly DGMF will be in love for heavy tanks after 10 years . Again you are missing the picture of supporting the home grown product.
I still remember that your the one to state the fuel consumption of the Arjun it seems. Better engine means more BHP, so more fuel, isn't it contradicting with your previous post.
Unfortunately the Arjun is still not ready to make a valid comparison. There is still a lot left on the tank.
I am no talking about losses in materials. Arjun development is still far from over. So, I don't see why the engineers and scientists have to be reassigned. DRDO still hopes to sell the Arjuns.
But not choosing YF-23 does defeat the purpose of developing it. It is just stored somewhere and all the research is locked up. There is no advancement beyond the first prototype. The money used to fund the prototype is lost but the experience stays. It is the same with Arjun. We need experience more than a tank.
Wrong. BMS is easy to install. APS on the Arjun does not exists as of now. New engine...don't make me laugh. Where is it? New ERA...another thing DRDO is supposedly working on.
None of this is a generation gap. The same things are present on the T-90 and indigenous IP will not help you win a war. We can build as many T-90s as we like. The Russians will not stop us. Upgrading the T-90s will be faster due to superior Russian experience. Plus, the added advantage of joining future tank projects.
The Arjun consists of only a composite armour protection. The T-90 has composite armour, ERA and will have a new APS way sooner than the Arjun. So, you decide which of them is more protected. The Arjun Mk2 will only bring it to the level of present day T-90.
This hit and survive is only on paper. Nothing in real life. Taking a hit from an old T-72 gun will not cut it. With just composite armour, the Arjun is not going anywhere.
This is not pre independence days. We are living in a capitalist world. Every country on the planet wants to sell to India. Why would the army go indigenous by compromising on quality.
Similar is different from same. Can you tell me the difference between the killing capability of the LAHAT and the Refleks? They are the same in killing capability.
Already answered in previous posts.and T 90 has better crew protection then arjun you just turned the theory upside down which is having separate compartment for ammo gives more crew protection
Yes. It will be rejected again. But, we are learning, aren't we?
We do not know how the next generation tank will be like. It could be smaller and lighter. Add stealth and automation too. So, 10 or 20 years down the line we may look at a completely new type of warfare.Now please don't tell that suddenly DGMF will be in love for heavy tanks after 10 years
This is not pre independence days. We are living in a capitalist world. Every country on the planet wants to sell to India. Why would the army go indigenous by compromising on quality.
We havent seen the Hit and survive concpet till now. How can you draw into a conclusion? Have you saw arjun trial run? It one of the highly classified trail made by IA.
You wanna lose your GDP growth and forex in other pocket even when we have the enough resource???
) rounds and that too only once.
Buddy an ERA tile is no bigger than a Brick which is about 10 cm wide. so here you are talking about a CEP of 10 cm ... which is possible only by sniper rifles not tank guns... if you are talking about blind luck then even a composite armour hit exactly at the same point will yield.
Like what?
In case we had to close arjun and start a new MBT development. As was said.
No the research is not locked up its reflected in the companies subsequent projects. The money is paid by the government, i doubt how the private companies will not prefer that.
Dont play sacrasm with me, for the T-90 we are importing the whole thing at the same costs, and same can be done for Arjun, we will just call it indigenous.Wrong. BMS is easy to install. APS on the Arjun does not exists as of now. New engine...don't make me laugh. Where is it? New ERA...another thing DRDO is supposedly working on.
BMS as a system, will involve several types of vehicles, not just T-90 or Arjun. No it will not have that system soon, the contracts a long one including development for installation. And the same can be done for Arjun under the same contract.
The T-90 as it stands now, right now, today, is a tank from 1990 and not a day younger, its a whole generation behind.
I think you forget that the sandwich Armour is much thicker on the Arjun and And it has shown documented resistance better than the T-72/90. ERA is not exactly the cutting edge technology you make it out to be, mostly to compensate from vulnerability its certainly not a silver bullet with the advances in tandem warheads this game will keep on going to NERA, Electric RA and the only way to stay ahead is to have more facilities like the HEMRL, the very advantage of sandwich armour is the ease of installation of other options (ERA is a custom made add on tile). The very lack of this parameter in the military requirements for the last 10 years should show this to you.
This is an article from Jane's 1997. Could not post the original link as it appears to have been taken offline.
Not necessarily true. Only Russian tanks can handle the weight penalty without compromising its effectiveness by a large degree. At the same time the heavier western tanks cannot handle adding more weight. M1Abrams are a different beast all together because of the use of Depleted Uranium in the armour. Even the Challenger-2s come out with ERA when fighting in cities. Even the Israeli Merkavas used ERA in the Arab Israeli wars. So, whenever a war comes up the countries can justify the use of ERA away from the ambit of budget pressures.
ERA is most effective against HEAT rounds rather than APFSDS. The fact is the biggest threat to tanks in urban warfare is not other tanks but it is Man portable RPGs. The latest RPGs coming out of Russia will have even the Abrams running for cover. In the Iraq war a Challenger 2 was penetrated by a RPG-29 through the ERA and the frontal armour and injured the driver.
The Western tanks depend on ERA too.
Arjun took hits from a T-72, and T-90 took hits from a T-80 .... now i am not saying that arjun's armour is inferior ...but saying that arjun can take hits from t-72 does not make a case that the T-90's armour is inferior to Arjun and moreover The T-90 can Take Hits and Still Roll and which seemed to be the gold standard in armour for some members, also in arjun tests it was never claimed that arjun could take hits and still roll on it just stated that arjun could survive hits from a T-72 which could mean that the crew could survive or anything it still doesn't say that the arjun was able to roll on and flatten the other tank.
