Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ppgj]

i have some questions ppgj please oblige by answering and please think from a neutral point of view on this one

how does speaking for a superior tank which is indigenous is partial?? how does your supporting T-72 & T-90 makes it neutral??

and keep the arjun out because we are not talking about t-72 vs arjun vs t-90 here.

which is why the question arises why waste money to upgrade an obsolete tank when a world class tank exists locally!!

1.is it feasible for india to buy 2400 arjuns or t-90's today?

who said 2400 can be immediately replaced? max. the DRDO can produce 50 odd( not sure) every year. so replacements if accepted will be incremental.

cost requirements=40328 crores just for the basics+ logistics and in case of arjun ERA and in case of t-90 fcs etc?

logistics could have been created long back had the army shown interest. they never showed it and infact went to the extent of sabotaging the trials. it is criminal and malicious. money is not a problem for india now.

2.how long according to you will it take to replace 2400 tanks?

incrementally. as Arjuns get inducted the others make way.

3.are they not replacing them by buying 1600 t-90 and 124 arjuns?

point is Arjun is superior to T-90. if they don't want to replace T-90 for mysterious reasons, they can atleast do it for T-72's. you create capital for further R&D and retains jobs and create capabilities in defence sector which is our goal.

4.in case of a war what would be better a current T-72 or an upgraded one?

it is obvious. but even after whatever upgrades you can do to T-72 they will be no match to Arjun.

 

[notinlove]

he he you must be joking...........right.......

whats so funny may i know?

 

[notinlove]

You mean to say, as of this moment, the T72 are sitting ducks in front of the T80s and AKs of the Paks?? And How much longer can this "Upgraded" T72 serve us? I mean, tearing it down, its a worn out tank from the 70s. Will the T70s stand up to the Anti Tank Missile scenarios in future Indo Pak conflicts? The Pakistanis know they cant kill us Tank Vs Tank, so they have built up Tank Vs Missile scenario. How will our Upgraded T72s come in?

In the Future conflicts, I feel a Tank should have an active protection system above all, and as of now, our T90 lacks a Shotra, if I am not mistaken. The future is the Arjun and T90, if not the Arjun only!

They are not sitting ducks during the day ..but they aren't as good also.in the night yes they are sitting ducks.

The tank vs missile scenario holds for any tank be it the arjun or the t-90 or the t-72 ... as the abilities of kanchan or the upgraded ERA of the t-72 are just speculations(the legend goes that kanchan survived point blank hit from t-72 and kontakt-5 survived point blank hit from the american silver bullet) so i won't comment on that. moreover tanks are never deployed alone they are deployed with infanty and its their job to save the tanks from shoulder fired ATGM's.

The t-90 lacks shtora not because we didn't get it but because we didn't want it. we are going for a better APS the LEDS-150 from saab for the T-90 .. it even has hardkill capacity moreover it is not any reason to retire t-72 because an APs can be slapped on a T-72 as much as it can be slapped on a t-90 or an Arjun.

 

[K Factor]

Our T90s need Shotra and we need the Arjun because we do need a behemoth I feel.

We have gone in for the Saab LEDS-150 already.

 

[ahmedsid]

Good to know we have Active Protection arriving soon. Well as for the argument that ATGM threat is always there and that Infantry is there to protect I agree, but we do have examples where that wasnt enough, and an awesome tank like Merkava was also bashed. So just think of our T72s!!!

About the Active protection being strapped onto a T72, well that alone wont solve the problem, as I have said, its just one of the many problems. Where do you see the T72s 30 Years from now? The Chinese are fast developing Tank Tech, and in 30 Years they will be fielding tanks better than the T72, which if these upgrades are to be blieved, will be our backbone then tooo!

 

[sayareakd]

this is what happen to T series upgrade tanks in gorgian war

http://georgia2008.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/tskhinvali10a.jpg

this one had upgrade from Israel, with ERA and night vision capabilities

 

[notinlove]

how does speaking for a superior tank which is indigenous is partial?? how does your supporting T-72 & T-90 makes it neutral??

I dare you go through the thread and show me any post posted by me which says arjun is crap. i don't get into arjun vs t-90 ever because i don't believe its as objective as people think it is.

which is why the question arises why waste money to upgrade an obsolete tank when a world class tank exists locally!!

They are not Upgrading all of them at the max 1500(i even doubt that number)

moreover according to 5000 crore total and 5 crore per tank 1000 tanks would be upgraded and estimating the arjun's cost at 20 crores per machine including logistics and era and aps we can get 250 tanks. what should we do about the other 750?
We are not as rich as you think sir.you compare our defense spending with usa and say they spend 5 percent and we spend 2 percent but you forget that they are a developed country, they already have a world class infrastructure and other things which we still are to build . we cannot increase our defense spending to 5 percent of our GDP . because that will mean cutting into other things.

who said 2400 can be immediately replaced? max. the DRDO can produce 50 odd( not sure) every year. so replacements if accepted will be incremental.

you say 50 tanks per year . i say let them produce 100 a year it still will take 24 years to fullfill. what should we do in the meanwhile?put 125 mm guns on tata nano?

logistics could have been created long back had the army shown interest. they never showed it and infact went to the extent of sabotaging the trials. it is criminal and malicious. money is not a problem for india now.

Dear sir i never argued if logistics could be created or not. i simply m stating that if it would have been created in the past or has to be created in the future it still would cost something wouldn't it?

incrementally. as Arjuns get inducted the others make way.

that increment is pretty slow about 24 years . till then should we use current t-72 or upgraded t-72?

point is Arjun is superior to T-90. if they don't want to replace T-90 for mysterious reasons, they can atleast do it for T-72's. you create capital for further R&D and retains jobs and create capabilities in defence sector which is our goal.

shoot the faithful dog because it is a foreign breed and now you can get a bengal tiger? atleast wait for the poor kid to die.

it is obvious. but even after whatever upgrades you can do to T-72 they will be no match to Arjun.

upgrade takes lesser time . it is less costly.i am not arguing about not retiring t-72's i am arguing about those that still have 20 years of life on them.

I want to make it absolutely clear that in this thread i am not arguing in favour or against the arjun.my point is that ajai shukla is an imbecile and he is just flaming and instigating people. has he given a number as to how much T-72's are being upgraded.
we have 2400 T-72's. for all we know the army might be upgrading 1000 newer ones and buying arjuns or whatever in lieu of the rest 1400 old ones but according to mr shukla all T-72's are 30 year old and all are useless and all should be thrown in gutter and arjun should be bought in place of them. and this should happen magically overnight. what a joke . now i even doubt he was ever in the army.

 

[notinlove]

this is what happen to T series upgrade tanks in gorgian war

http://georgia2008.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/tskhinvali10a.jpg

this one had upgrade from Israel, with ERA and night vision capabilities

can you tell me what it was hit with? for all i know it could have been hit with a bloody cruise missile or can you prove to me that this wont happen to a Arjun or a merkava or an abrams when hit with the same thing?

 

[Agantrope]

Still the IA tamasha continues for the Armoured Fleets and Desi malls.

I still dont know about the T-72 upgrade and still i dont got a clear picture of the so i cant comment on the process of upgrade.

When asked to maintain a fleet strength of minimum 5000 tanks (including IFVs) It is utter stupid to go to T-72 upgrade. Even Russian havent showed much interrest in the T-90 tanks as their are waiting for the T-95s. Even their T-72s are not upgraded this heavily.

I dont know what Sh*t about the doctrine. You sleep and dream of aishwarya rai and your are with a *******. This is what IA is thinking. Do thing pratically. Again dont start a conversation about the fuel consumption all those thing. As per the present doctrine we need to thrust and bisect the western hostile neighbour a 2 or more pieces within 96 hours, cant your fuel supply last long atleast for 5 days. Again logistics refer the google for BEML coaches for Arjun im not going to post this here.

This is the difference between us and the chinese, they are eating for the money what they have in their hand and we are dreaming about the subways. Even russians will think that we are mad to upgrade the obsolete t-72 .

Regarding T-95 if it comes with a 152MM then thats a bonus as it can serves the purpose of both the howtizer and the tank. Still 2400-300 need to renewed. Atleast 500-700 tanks in the Thar and Rann of Kanch ill do the job perfectly.

T-72s wont make a stand against the neighbours of ours. Even with the ray-ban glasses

 

[notinlove]

Good to know we have Active Protection arriving soon. Well as for the argument that ATGM threat is always there and that Infantry is there to protect I agree, but we do have examples where that wasnt enough, and an awesome tank like Merkava was also bashed. So just think of our T72s!!!

haha sir absolutely true.but a t-72 has a smaller silhouette so it might have a teeny tiny better chance of avoiding, i dont mean that the t-72 is better than the merkava but isn't it pointless to go for a heavy tanks if it can be destroyed by the same missile as the lighter tank?

About the Active protection being strapped onto a T72, well that alone wont solve the problem, as I have said, its just one of the many problems. Where do you see the T72s 30 Years from now? The Chinese are fast developing Tank Tech, and in 30 Years they will be fielding tanks better than the T72, which if these upgrades are to be blieved, will be our backbone then tooo!

after 20 years the t-90 and the arjun will be our backbone .. and the t-95 or the 2020 tank being visualised in JV with russia would be the fancy toys. T-72's would be completely phased out.

 

[p2prada]

I have been constantly been saying the same thing over and over again. The decision for choosing the T-90s instead of Arjun is nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of the tanks. Its pure logistics.

If DRDO can deliver the Arjun at the same logistics cost as the T-72 or the T-90 then we have a deal. Else, it is just for show. Perhaps we can think about it if PA manage to procure some Abrams or Type 99s. Until then the Arjun will simply be a drain on the exchequer. There is a difference between pocuring a weapon system adn procuring a weapon system to win. The Arjuns will only help us fight a war. The T-90s will help us win a war. I doubt we will ever manage to split Pakistan into 2 in a full blown war with just Arjuns. They will go dry before reaching baluchistan.

Let DRDO build the Arjun. Then let them build the Arjun Mk2 and maybe even Mk3. Then let DRDO compete with Russia for the 2020 tank. At least this way DRDO can learn completely without having to cripple the Army's fighting ability. Who cares if the Army does not buy unless DRDO gets the funds to keep developing new tanks. We can spend Rs 500 Crores developing a tank, no big deal. But, spending Rs 5000 Crores just to replace the logistics is insane. No country can afford that, even the US.

 

[notinlove]

T-72s wont make a stand against the neighbours of ours. Even with the ray-ban glasses

Prove it..................

 

[Agantrope]

Simple See the Iraqi War or Georgia War, See the torned T-72 there, you will get an idea

 

[sayareakd]

Prove it..................

this is improved and upgrade ajay of IA..............

i dont need to say anything else.......

 

[Rage]

Listen to p2prada, he's the one making the most sense in this discussion.

It is unfeasible to expect the principle tank in the 5000+ strong Armoured Corps to be replaced en masse by 2020.

But this is more than just about logistics, this is about correcting a historical gaffe.

The majority of India's T72-M1 present fleet was imported during 1982-86, setting them at between 23-28 years old.

Contrary to Shukla's article, Minnistry of Defense specifications stipulate that they be overhauled after 12 years. Shortly after their induction, Project 'Red Rose' was sanctioned in 1986 so that facilities would be available by the time the first overhaul was due. But we f^cked up, and big time ! Project 'Red Rose' was delayed by four years, and by the time alternative facilities were set up at Avadi in 1993 to eventually overhaul 70 tanks per annum at a cost of Rs 12 crore, 370 tanks imported during 1979 to 1982 had become due for overhaul.

The Ministry sanction in 1993 accorded creation of capacity for the overhaul of 12 tanks by March 1995, 40 cumulative by June 1995, 70 cumulative by December 1995 and thereafter 70 per annum from 1996 onwards. Similarly, 25 engines were to be overhauled by September 1994, 40 cumulative by March 1995, 170 cumulative by December 1995 and 170 per annum thereafter (1996 onwards).

The scale should give you some idea as to the extent of the backlog in overhaul.

Large numbers of tanks and engines becoming due for overhaul at one time is likely attributable to their induction in bulk particularly during 1982-86, for which second (or subsequent) cyclic overhaul this measure (the Rs.5crore+ per tank to fit new 1000-horsepower engines, thermal Imaging Fire Control Systems and thermal-imaging sights for night battles, to address some of the concerns some of you have, and Auxiliary Power Units for the tank’s electrical systems) is designed to redress. It is both rational and necessary.

 

[Agantrope]

@ Rage

Accepted Rage it is impossible to replace all the obsolete tanks by 2020.
But think of this scenario ZTZ-99 is going to pakistan. Can these tanks stand by chance?? What ever it may be a single RPG i enough even to penetrate the best armour of the world

 

[NSG_Blackcats]

Silly. Not at the cost of instigating the masses with false information. That is a punishable crime.

So you mean to say Ajai Sukla is instigating the mases with false information?? It seems all the reporters are instigating the mases with false information.

Right, it is a punishable crime. So why IA is not taking legal action against the reporter. GOI can also take action against him.

Ask all the questions you want. But, don't accuse them of being influenced by the Russian lobby without any proof.

Can't help it, if anyone feels asking question and making accusation are same. There are numerous instances like Tahelka episode which has proved that there are corrupt elements in our armed forces.

It is being probed and a verdict will be reached.

Yes, the verdict will come out. Thanks to MoD that at-least court martial proceedings will start.

It has nothing to do with Arjun.

I know it has nothing to do with Arjun. I was replying to your post.

 

[notinlove]

Simple See the Iraqi War or Georgia War, See the torned T-72 there, you will get an idea

Did they go against the alkhalid or the type 99 in georgia and iraq? NO. how will i get an idea then?

 

[Rage]

@ Rage

Accepted Rage it is impossible to replace all the obsolete tanks by 2020.
But think of this scenario ZTZ-99 is going to pakistan. Can these tanks stand by chance?? What ever it may be a single RPG i enough even to penetrate the best armour of the world

When is ZTZ-99 going to Pakisthan? China already delivered a pre-production vehicle to Pakistan for consideration as the Al Khalid II --- in 2007. To date, there has been no word on the actual, or anticipated, procurement. The tank itself may be a let-down: it envisages exposed ammunition, a weak 2A46 autoloader of T-72 genesis, uses old FLIR and electronics technology, an old and obsolete suspension system of T-98 variety, and the actual claimed ammunition performance is most likely achieved via short barrel life issuing from wear & tear. An upgraded Al Khalid I variant was given to the Evaluation, Training And Research Organization (ETRO), Heavy Industries, Taxila for testing in 2009, incorporating modifications to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammers and Sagem third-generation thermal imagers, not unlike the upgrades our T-72M1's are scheduled to undergo now. As of now, the predominant variant in service is the plain-jane Al Khalid, based on the P3, and is likely to remain in future service for a good many more years.

 

[notinlove]

this is improved and upgrade ajay of IA..............

i dont need to say anything else.......

Do you know what is inside the indian ERA slabs or what was in the georgian ERA slabs?


even i don't need to say anything else