Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Agantrope]

Sri 276 is just too small number, if GOI want to brake even for the tank factory then at least 500 units of Arjun MK-I, till such time MK-II comes into picture.

plus can you please tell us what is the rate of production per year of OFB (HVF) for ARjun tank.

I meant that 124+276+ will be in numbers. The expansion work are going in final phase in CVRDE-HVF AVADI Chennai. Insider info: orders will be fiven in the split up of 124+124+X, the second batch will be powered by the indian made german engine and from the X the engine used will be of india's indian made. I cant go on with the further details. excuses :|

 

[sayareakd]

sri thanks for great inside info.............. looking forward to hear more in future.

 

[notinlove]

I think irrespective of IA orders, DRDO should get MOD permission & rope ARJUN in International Market. Atleast they can make money put into programme & earn some reputation in market...

Yeah that should give the fanbois some perspective

 

[enlightened1]

.........................

 

[enlightened1]

 

[Daredevil]

Wrong. Arjun failed its last trials. 124 were ordered under pressure.

Nope, again wrong. It has been ordered only after Arjun met the GSQR requirement laid down by DGMF. Check this statement by Ministry of Defence official to Parliamentary committee. It states that Arjun is far superior to T-90 and T-72 tanks. Most of the kinks that were there during earlier trials were fixed and IA had no other choice but to order 124 tanks though it deserved to be ordered in more numbers in place of T-90.

The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied ” “MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank. A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised. MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. .MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs”

http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline

The low production was due to ToT issues which were resolved.

T-90 production is still not completely indigenized (ability to manufacture from raw materials & imports) while Arjun is indigenized completely in its manufacture.

Horse Puckey by DRDO to save its hide. Army didn't even dignify DRDO's allegations.

Circumstances indicate otherwise and there is a strong possibility that there was some tinkering done with the engines. Then how come suddenly all issues with engine disappear once the engine is made tamper proof and black box is installed.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/21russia.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/22tank.htm
--------

There is nothing coming out on FMBT JV/ToT front. Its 2 year old news. Any latest info???.

Induct Arjun and kill funds for Future MBT ?
We already have ordered 1000s of world class T90s which are more than sufficient to meet current challenges.
T72's can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost and no money required for re-training.

T-90s are inferior to Arjun in many aspects. Its protection system is weaker than Arjun (due to its heavy & strong Kanchan Armour)putting the lives of the Tank crew in jeopardy. Here is a gist

Protection of MBT Arjun against FSAPDS and HESH ammunitions has been demonstrated. In January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature. A tank with ERA has a weight penalty.

T90 can be continually evolved, at the same time we can induct NG-MBT.
T72 will be there to bolster the numbers.

T-90 basic design is still that of T-72 which is 4 decades old and is flawed in modern times. As far as further evolution of T-90 is considered, it reached dead end. There is not much scope for improvement on T-90 only addition of some missing features at extra cost. On the other hand, Arjun's basic designed is robust and modern and is especially designed for Indian Army while T-90 was designed for Russian Army which has been tweaked around to suit Indian conditions. The scope that Arjun offers for improvement is vast and it can last for next 3 decades and yet stay current with future upgrades, same cannot be said for T-90.

Thank You. In 2003 Arjun was nowhere the product it is "claimed" to be today. Hence the IA's aversion.
Today Arjun could be a good tank but it will not be inducted in any significant number because it doesn't make sense.

Why induction of Arjun doesn't make sense??. What does T-90 do that Arjun cannot do?. In fact Arjun is far superior to T-90 (while T-72 is no match at all) on many aspects be it agility, fire power, accuracy of firing, crew protection & comfort, APUs, start-of-the-art battle management system, superior engine power and so on. And both of them cost the same, yet T-90 is favored over Arjun, why???.

I suggest you and other Arjun bashers to go through the links that I'm providing below which compared the capabilities of Arjun and T-90 to make yourself and educated opinion.

PS: T-90 has not been tested thoroughly under Indian conditions as they did for Arjun, yet they inducted without any questions asked. Basically IA is inducting an imported system which is inferior to Arjun without testing it thoroughly.

Links to read:

http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf

http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline

http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arjun-tank-development

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt

http://sniperz11.blogspot.com/2007/11/arjun-mk2-approved.html

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/4266

http://web.archive.org/web/20080129043924/http://russianarmor.info/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html

http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor/

 

[johnee]

Now, it is being proven that Arjun is equal or better than T-90, but even if Arjun had fared marginally lesser than T-90, IA must favour the indigeneous product. The imported products cannot be the backbone of our army if we dream of being some kind of military power in this region leave alone the world. These foreign products come with lot of other geopolitical constraints, we would always be dependent in some form or the other on a foreign nation. We must aim to minimise it. Repeated rejection of Arjun to me represents the general attitude towards indigenous products. It seems to be generated by apparent lack of faith in Indian capabilities to build a worldclass product and perhaps a dirty nexus of agents of middlemen who would stand to gain a lot with imported products. Induction of Arjun would definitely provide a great boost to DRDO and needless to say that over the years our products will get better just like other military products have got better. Infact, other nations inducted their sub-quality products in their initial stages of product/tech development and now they are reaping benefits of encouraging local indigenous products/techs. DRDO must be encouraged by our own army. Instead, our army seems to be more tolerant of drawbacks in a foreign product then in our own product. This is a strange behaviour...

 

[ajtr]

Blow to swadeshi in military?

Listen to retd.Lt Gen VK Kapoor was spouting on that Vishal Thapar report..with a ground pressure lower than the T-90 and T-72 and with medium fording capability the Arjun would do just as well as the T-series tanks in Punjab and its really retarded to say that because there aren't bridges available for the Arjun now, it cannot be bought. Those tank-laying bridges can be built, bought in numbers and the money stays within India. Its really dismaying to see such a sloth like attitude in the IA, continuously hiding behind one excuse or another....so the rot is in the army?

 

[gogbot]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why did they have to drag LCA in their game.
At least let the Tejas fly in glory

It does not need to be bad mouted by our own media.

At least the LCA programme as plan and outlook

 

[Dark_Prince]

LCA is on the the Roll, with Rs. 8,000 crore investments, LCA in for production and induction. Arjun outclassing T-90, however, IA's multi-millionaire procurement team is out in the media spewing their own discontent and theories!! As-usual, brain-dead media guys are out getting played by these arms-dealers, middle-men and IA procurement dalals!

 

[nrj]

^^^^^^^^ Whose that so called expert lecturing about ARJUN MBT is not suitable for the Indian terrain?? Does he have any idea what was the basis for the demand of Arjun heavy class MBT? It was suppose to outperform the Abrams MBT, Pak was pursuing from Uncle sam (And hell yeah it has proved it now)......

"If you hit Arjun from any side, it'll be penetrated" & i don't get this, who designated them so "Expert"???

Needless to bring LCA here, "LCA is too light to carry today's weapons" - They are getting on my nerves! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I say, A.V & gurus lets start DFI tv channel...

 

[Armand2REP]

That video is BS. Not only are the new assualt bridges made to handle Arjun, it can withstand point blank hits from the T-72s main gun. Arjun has come of age and retired loser doesn't see the writing on the wall. Russian junk is out and superior Indian firepower is in.

 

[san]

After losing their pet T90 to Arjun (at least in field test) natasa lobby will try their luck for their newer FMBT T95 (still on paper). A tank with 152 mm smothbore. This type of project has done by Yankees during Vietnam & was a failure. The natasas will try their best not to have our own MBT for next 30-40 year or so.

 

[Ray]

Here are a few facts about the T-90:

1) Has controlable missiles that could be fired up to 5km of range from its main cannon, with the Abrams having very little chance of survival if hit.

2) Has anti projectile systems meaning it can deflect incoming missiles.

3) Has reactive armour, making it very durable against enemy fire

4) MUCH better in its poor terrain capabilities. At a military show, an Abram's caterpillars came off during an ordinary obsticle coarse.

5) Much smaller size and having a mass of 47 tonns where as the Abrams is at 60.

6) Its new 1000hp engine makes it almost on par with the performance of an Abrams.

7) Cheaper and easier to maintain as well as being more durable meaning it has to be maintained less.

8) Cheaper to produce.

9) Holds an UNOFFICIAL record in the fastest fire to hit ratio, hitting 7 targets at ranges from 1km to 2.3 in under 50 seconds.
Which is the best tank?

I believe that while the Arjun, now has made it to "acceptable" specifications, it is very heavy tank.

I heard an interview that Lt Gen VK Kapoor, ex DGMO and Comdt War College gave to NewsX. He said owing to the canals, distributories etc, it was not suitable for deployment in the Punjab and the North.

It is a good tank for the desert sector.

One of the issues in battle is that the smaller an equipment is, it is easier to conceal and quicker to manoeuvre. Therefore, a smaller tank has its advantages than a bigger tank.

Whatever, let the Army decide.

Notwithstanding, the exercise in designing a tank has given the DRDO great experience and they will surely produce a tank that is world class and within an acceptable timeframe so that it is within the spectrum of the stategic environment that is current at that time and for at least 20 years hence.

 

[gogbot]

Judge for your selves the difference in size and silhouette. And how much difference it can make.

And the Arjun can also have ERA armour. Its not exclusive to the T-90.

 

[nitesh]

our T 90 does not have reactive armor also the power to weight ration of arjun is higher as well ground pressure is lower. this makes arjun a much better tank.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

i have certain doubt about arjun i want to clarify, first what is the cost of logistics, & maintanence of the arjun? especially the logistical challenge of transporting a 58 tonne tank from point A to Point B is this tank complaiant with our current war doctraine? i just want to clarify thats all because maybe thats why the army is not too keen to have them

 

[Sabir]

Arjun tanks do well but Army still keen on Russian T-90S
TNN, Mar 26, 2010, 02.46am IST

NEW DELHI: The Arjuns have done `quite well' in the long-awaited battle with the Bhishmas. The Army, however, continues to favour the Bhishmas over the Arjuns in the race for the main-battle tanks (MBTs) for the 1.13-million force.

While the final results of the comparative trials between the indigenous Arjun tanks and Russian-origin T-90S tanks (christened `Bhishma') in the Thar desert are still being `tabulated', sources said Arjuns had performed well on most parameters like cross-country drives and hitting targets on the move.

The Army, however, remains certain that its requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks will be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 T-90S tanks and the 124 Arjuns already ordered.

It, instead, wants DRDO to concentrate on developing an advanced Mark-II version of the Arjun to suit its futuristic requirements. DRDO, however, wants Army to order a minimum of 500 Arjuns to stabilise production lines and pave the way for development of the `futuristic' MBT.

"The decision on the fate of Arjuns and the operational roles in which they can be deployed will only be taken after the final results are compiled and analysed,'' said an official.

DRDO has often expressed worry over moves to demand `higher performance' from the 58.5-tonne Arjun, which it claims is `superior' to even the 46.5-tonne T-90S in some respects like its `excellent weight-to-power ratio and very accurate firepower on the move'.

With the huge delay in the Arjun project, which was sanctioned as far back as in 1974, the Army was forced to go in for the T-90S to meet its operational requirements.

After getting 310 T-90S tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract, India signed a Rs 4,900 crore deal with Russia in November 2007 to import another 347 of these MBTs.

The Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory is to manufacture another 1,000 T-90S tanks under licence. Then, there is the ongoing upgradation of 692 T-72 tanks to "combat-improved Ajeya standards''.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...keen-on-Russian-T-90S/articleshow/5724327.cms

 

[Sabir]

......some people think Arjun is too large to conceal as if T-90 is a Humming Bird. With the same logic they should prohibit people with good physic and hight from joining army as thin and short people will have better chance to escape enemy firing for their smaller cross-section of body......................

 

[ppgj]

Here are a few facts about the T-90:

1) Has controlable missiles that could be fired up to 5km of range from its main cannon, with the Abrams having very little chance of survival if hit.

T-90 fires Refleks missile. Arjun tank has a similar missile but better range -

The LAHAT missile has a range of 8 km when launched from a ground platform, and up to 13 km, when deployed from high elevation. The missile hits the target at an accuracy of 0.7meter CEP and an angle of over 30 degrees.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

2) Has anti projectile systems meaning it can deflect incoming missiles.

laser warners and smoke grenades are part of Arjun too sir.

It is protected by a laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection and suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in watertight containers to reduce the risk of fire.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

the Arjun is also fitted with Laser Warning system and 9 Smoke grenade launchers for protection.

http://sify.com/news/Arjun-s-time-has-come-imagegallery-others-kcejIxhcfac.html

3) Has reactive armour, making it very durable against enemy fire

T-90 armour is not good enough and hence needs ERA. Arjun does not need it because of its superior kanchan armour which has been proven against all known hesh and apfspds rounds including the israeli ones. if needed ERA can be added.

Protection of MBT Arjun against FSAPDS and HESH ammunitions has been demonstrated. In January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition
and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature. A tank with ERA has a weight penalty.

http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

also -

Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) panels can be added, though the current Kanchan armour is deemed sufficient for the time being. The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" (gold) composite armour. A new honeycomb design, non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is being tested on the Arjun and is reported to be working perfectly.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

4) MUCH better in its poor terrain capabilities. At a military show, an Abram's caterpillars came off during an ordinary obsticle coarse.

sir, can you elaborate on this? do you mean because of its weight?? but sir it is also poorly propelled by a weak engine!! will it not affect the performance?

5) Much smaller size and having a mass of 47 tonns where as the Abrams is at 60.

sir designs are different. Abrams, Arjuns offer better protection and crew comfort against T-90. also they are built for survivability and still carry on. it is a trade off and hence higher weight. however that does not come in the way of their mobility. with better power/weight ratio and less nominal ground pressure, they offer better mobilty and manouerability too.

6) Its new 1000hp engine makes it almost on par with the performance of an Abrams.

sir, this 1000hp engine on T-90 is suspect. it only offers 840hp.

The Russians have claimed that the T-90 engine generates 1,000 horse power (HP), which fits the requirements of the Indian Army. During field trials in India, it was found that the engine was getting overheated and the tanks lacked the power to negotiate the desert terrain.

The technical people, especially from the EME and DGQA, were surprised to find the horse power rating of the engine not conforming to the specifications. The Russians, it is said, tried to mislead the trial team, persisting with their claim that the engi ne was generating 1,000 HP.

When the technicians tested the engine more than once it was found to generate only 840 HP. The Russians, however, assured the trial team that the engine brought for trials would not be the one fitted on to the tanks meant for India. Instead, they would put in the engine with 1,000 HP. This was just a verbal assurance.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

indian army was fooled by the russians. IIRC, the problem still persists. instead of confronting the russians not only on this and various other TOT issues and we are only rewarding them!!

if only the army was half supportive to Arjun, we would not be in this situation.

7) Cheaper and easier to maintain as well as being more durable meaning it has to be maintained less.

no sir. Arjun comes with modular design. it will be easy in terms of maintainence.

Talk to the crewmen, the drivers, gunners, operators… and you’ll get an even clearer endorsement.
They all love the modular construction of the Arjun, which makes maintenance so easy. Changing a T-72 engine takes a full day; changing an Arjun engine takes a couple of hours.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/nailing-some-more-falsehoods-about.html

8) Cheaper to produce.

the army bought a stripped down version of T-90 to gain the price advantage without shtora defensive systems. they were to be procured later as separate agreements. the cost as of now of T-90 is higher or equal to Arjun.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

Arjun costs 16 crore per piece!!

The tanks costs over Rs16 crore a piece, official sources said.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

9) Holds an UNOFFICIAL record in the fastest fire to hit ratio, hitting 7 targets at ranges from 1km to 2.3 in under 50 seconds.
Which is the best tank?

auto loaders may help the rate of fire but they have their own drawbacks both for loading and crew safety. but Arjun has better accuracy both static and on the move, consisitently above 90%. also -

Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500.

http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

I believe that while the Arjun, now has made it to "acceptable" specifications, it is very heavy tank.

agree sir it is heavy but it was the result of army's own specifications -

http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arjun-tank-development

I heard an interview that Lt Gen VK Kapoor, ex DGMO and Comdt War College gave to NewsX. He said owing to the canals, distributories etc, it was not suitable for deployment in the Punjab and the North.

but sir, does not that affect T-90 too?? moreover T-90 is underpowered which will have greater negative.

It is a good tank for the desert sector.

correct. but i still can't understand how it will not be effective in the other sectors? considering even T-90's will face the same set of problems.

One of the issues in battle is that the smaller an equipment is, it is easier to conceal and quicker to manoeuvre.
Therefore, a smaller tank has its advantages than a bigger tank.

agree but the difference in silhouette is very minor sir. in addition Arjun being superior in almost all parameteres and with BMS to boot which, will give a better situational awareness, i wonder if that makes much of a difference.

Whatever, let the Army decide.

unfortunately they have been the biggest stumbling block. if they had inducted earlier, we would not be facing this. they have been only rewarding russians and living with the problems while resisting Arjun all the time even while problems whenever occured were set right.

also, if our army does not support our product which has proven to be better than their choice, who else to turn to?? is it right to live with foreign arm twists?? Russians have been found wanting on many T-90 related TOT issues!! should we not be independant wherever possible??

Notwithstanding, the exercise in designing a tank has given the DRDO great experience and they will surely produce a tank that is world class and within an acceptable timeframe so that it is within the spectrum of the stategic environment that is current at that time and for at least 20 years hence.

they have already created (even israelis accept it) which can be improved to even better. but that means army has to induct and then work with DRDO to incrementally over a period.that is how all systems evolve and that is the only way.