Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ajtr]

Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

That should be the hall mark of the MBT and that should be the criteria for the selection and not the ones like hiding behind the sand dunes and running for its life, which are the hall marks of T- series.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

laser warners and smoke grenades are part of Arjun too sir.

Laser warning system and smoke granades is not the same as having an anti projectile systems or an active protection system (APS) the APS fires a projectile to an incomming missle or AT shell which destroyes its guidence system and the incomming projectile although this technology is not seen in any tanks til now as it is still in testing phase and i don't have much faith in this system the arjun does,nt have this system yet nor does abrams

 

[notinlove]

Just to Bust several myths flying around here .........

1. The 8 km range of Lahat sound's mighty impressive ....but it would be limited to around 6 km due to Horizon...if you can't target it .. you can't hit it ...until unless you are using uav or other methods of targeting.

2. nobody ever gave the proof that arjun took a hit from T-72 and still ROLLED ON last i heard the correct term was Survived and not rolled on ....and just to put this in perspective , T-90 took direct hits from T-80 and was still able to FIRE....suffice to say , arjun provides similar armour even after being 10-12 tonnes heavier. interested members can see the trial reports of T-90 provided on this very thread by me about a couple of months back.

3. the 18 crore figure being provided for T-90 is with all the bells and whistles and also including the cost of support vehicles and APS ...whereas the 16 crore cost of arjun is for a naked tank.

4.

"ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank

This statement is pure bullshit , the kontakt and kaktus are Heavy ERA and not Light ERA that the author seems to be touting them as , Heavy ERA can tackle APFSDS rounds very credibly.

 

[pankaj nema]

I and most Indians will not question the integrity of our armed forces because we expect them to protect
the country and if need be even die for it.

But for GOD sake this matter must be resolved at the earliest, by GOVT. , that why Arjun is getting a
"cold shoulder " from the Army.

Other wise , I hate to say but people's trust might be eroded.

 

[ppgj]

Laser warning system and smoke granades is not the same as having an anti projectile systems or an active protection system (APS) the APS fires a projectile to an incomming missle or AT shell which destroyes its guidence system and the incomming projectile although this technology is not seen in any tanks til now as it is still in testing phase and i don't have much faith in this system the arjun does,nt have this system yet nor does abrams

right. missed out adding this in the maze -

Tuesday, March 10, 2009

The DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi, has taken up the development of a Defensive Aids System for armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs) to enhance the survivability of tanks against anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats and to reduce the probability of detection by target acquisition systems.

Under this project, two major systems -- an Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) are being developed. MCS is to provide multispectral signature management of the vehicle to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions. MCS system has been developed in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Ltd, Gurgaon. The system has been integrated on MBT Arjun and the performance evaluation trials have been successfully completed. The methodology and the technologies can be adopted for any AFV platform. ALWCS system comprises laser warning system, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Ltd, Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected during summer 2009.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/mbt-arjuns-new-defensive-aid-system.html

however it is important to remember even T-90's are yet to sport the same.

There is also a proposal to fit the tanks with an Active Protection System (APS) which will intercept projectiles directed at the tanks from all direction using soft and hard kill techniques.

http://kuku.sawf.org/News/59601.aspx

 

[hit&run]

I think Ray sir has a point, MBT doest mean a bulldozer crashing into enemy garrison. Your tanks are winning war for you and your doctrine demands more Armour to save land so that Pakistan can not negotiate. You are not going to run a war (history) overwhelmingly with the support of your air force like USA did where Abrams were more or less for ornamental value only. The real war theater will be your stretched borders insulted by tanks from both sides. Interestingly we all know our wars will be short with third party jumping in soon to console. How many canals Pakistani side of border has and why they have a defensive offensive doctrine to kill as much as bravos they can justifies T90 over Arjun.

 

[Daredevil]

Just to Bust several myths flying around here .........

2. nobody ever gave the proof that arjun took a hit from T-72 and still ROLLED ON last i heard the correct term was Survived and not rolled on ....and just to put this in perspective , T-90 took direct hits from T-80 and was still able to FIRE....suffice to say , arjun provides similar armour even after being 10-12 tonnes heavier. interested members can see the trial reports of T-90 provided on this very thread by me about a couple of months back.

The armour of T-90 with ERA is equivalent to the basic armour of Arjun. Add ERA to Arjun, it gives much more protection than T-90. Regarding how good T-90 is in taking shots from enemy, here is a picture of T-90s cousin T-72BM in georgia war.

3. the 18 crore figure being provided for T-90 is with all the bells and whistles and also including the cost of support vehicles and APS ...whereas the 16 crore cost of arjun is for a naked tank.

Bollocks. How do you know 16 crores for Arjun is only for naked tank?.

 

[Singh]

Whoa so many responses... will take me time to answer all of them.

PS: FrontierIndia, Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor are not exactly known for their non-partisan views on the Arjun vs T90 debate.

 

[Daredevil]

Whoa so many responses... will take me time to answer all of them.

PS: FrontierIndia, Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor are not exactly known for their non-partisan views on the Arjun vs T90 debate.

Its like anyone who supports Arjun has become partisan to you. Even if they are partisan we should be able to sift wheat from chaff and make honest decision. In this case, evidence overwhelmingly supports Arjun trumping T-90.

 

[Singh]

Its like anyone who supports Arjun has become partisan to you. Even if they are partisan we should be able to sift wheat from chaff and make honest decision. In this case, evidence overwhelmingly supports Arjun trumping T-90.

A most unfortunate baseless accusation. I never said anything about individuals who support Arjun but it is my belief that the 3 sources I mentioned are biased in favour of DRDO.

And its not easy for me to sift wheat from the chaff and make an honest decision, because I am not an expert in judging tanks nor do I have access to the "classified" reports. At the same time Indian Army is a wholly competent and professional organization and I trust its judgement over those of armchair generals.

 

[Vinod2070]

Singhji, we all have a lot of trust in the professionalism of Indian Army and are proud of the organization.

Are you equally proud of our arms procurement system? Can you say it is not lethargic and corrupt and almost beyond redemption in its inefficiency and sloth?

 

[Daredevil]

A most unfortunate baseless accusation. I never said anything about individuals who support Arjun but it is my belief that the 3 sources I mentioned are biased in favour of DRDO.

And its not easy for me to sift wheat from the chaff and make an honest decision, because I am not an expert in judging tanks nor do I have access to the "classified" reports. At the same time Indian Army is a wholly competent and professional organization and I trust its judgement over those of armchair generals.

Nobody is questioning the authority of Army but only the Arms procurement agency's unflinching support to T-90 over a superior Arjun. Evidence is accumulating not just from alleged partisan sources but also from the ministry of defence officials who put Arjun above T-90. Please go through this

http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline

PS: Not long ago Ajay Shukla has berated Arjun to no end but he had to change his views based on the current status and improvement happened with Arjun. I think others should also follow suit and accept the facts instead of defending the indefensible.

 

[notinlove]

The armour of T-90 with ERA is equivalent to the basic armour of Arjun. Add ERA to Arjun, it gives much more protection than T-90. Regarding how good T-90 is in taking shots from enemy, here is a picture of T-90s cousin T-72BM in georgia war.

Add double era to T-90 and we will be back where we started from won't we .......armour and weight is a compromise one would have to keep in mind .

And do not compare T-90 to T-72 ........its a couple of generations better .......the T-80 is better than T-72 and the T-90 is even better than T-80 , you might want to update your info. i have pasted T-90 and T-80 comparison back in this thread

Bollocks. How do you know 16 crores for Arjun is only for naked tank?.

It does not have an APS and .. it does not include cost of support vehicles ....... thats what i mean by naked tank ... is that not so ?

 

[gogbot]

Sigh,

So many of these debates have happened over the years.

if we could not convince each other then. I doubt that can change now.

We are just re-hashing old arguments with old counter arguments.

In the end we just end up damaging the reputation of our own tanks and Army

I recommend we should avoid any debate right now, The Army report is due in Next month.
Hopefully all our questions will get an answer then.

 

[johnee]

Good one, Vinod. Somehow, the discussion is being turned into 'do you believe in our army's integrity or not' and thereby saying that everyone should simply accept any decision that the army procurement system makes. I cant help but notice that this argument is very pakistani nature where any question is quickly hush hushed by alleging disrespect towards army.

The simple thing is that we all absolutely RESPECT our army as an institution and look up to the great service done by each and every soldier towards the nation, but that is not the issue here. The perplexing issue here is why is army hell bent on supporting a foreign product over an indigenous product based on very flimsy grounds. One would expect that even if these excuses given by 'army' are true, they would accomodate the Arjun just as they have accomodated other tanks in the past. Lest we forget,even now we operate T-72s mainly.

Here is an article about that:


Army to spend over Rs5000 cr on obsolete T-72 tank

The Indian Army [ Images ] chief's concern that India's tank fleet was largely incapable of fighting at night highlighted only a part of the problem with the Russian T-72, the army's main tank. In fact, the T-72 is in far worse shape than General Deepak Kapoor described last month.

Another signal of the T-72's obsolescence was its recent withdrawal, by the army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), from next month's comparative trials with the indigenous Arjun tank. An embarrassed DGMF has realised that, without major refurbishing, the T-72 was not in the Arjun's class.

But in the army's long-term planning, the T-72 -- which the more advanced T-90 will replace only gradually -- will continue to equip almost half of the army's 59 tank regiments as far in the future as 2022.

Business Standard has accessed a sheaf of technical reports and funding requests that actually quantify the state of the T-72. Exactly 32 years have passed since the first T-72s arrived in India; army guidelines stipulate 32 years as the service life of a tank. The earliest tanks from the army's 2,418-strong T-72 inventory should have already been retired, making way for a more modern tank, such as the T-90 or the Arjun.

Instead, the DGMF -- longstanding advocates of Russian equipment -- plans to spend Rs 5 crore per T-72, hoping to add another 15-20 years to that tank's service life by replacing crucial systems, such as its fire control system, main engine and night vision devices.

The military's Annual Acquisition Plan for 2008-2010 (AAP 2008-10) lists out the cost of modernising the T-72 fleet as follows:
# New 1000-horsepower engines (identical to the T-90 tank) to replace the T-72's old 780-horsepower engines. The cost of each engine: Rs 3 crore.
# Thermal Imaging Fire Control Systems (TIFCS) that will allow the T-72 gunners to observe and fight at night. Each TIFCS will cost Rs 1.4 crore.
# Thermal Imaging (TI) sights to provide T-72 tank commanders with night vision. Each TI sight costs Rs 0.4 crore.
# An auxillary power unit (APU) to generate power for the tank's electrical systems. Each APU will cost Rs 0.16 crore.

The Rs 5-crore cost of upgrading each T-72 knocks out the argument that the T-72 -- at Rs 9 crore apiece -- is value-for-money. Retrofitting upgraded systems will escalate the cost of the T-72 to Rs 14 crore. In contrast, a new Arjun, with a 1,500 horsepower engine, state-of-the-art integrated electronics, and the indigenous, widely praised Kanchan armour, can be had for a marginally more expensive Rs 16.8 crore.

"It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it," says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army's Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. "India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun."

The T-72's galloping obsolescence is magnified by the MoD's failure to overhaul tanks on schedule: Some 800 T-72s are years overdue for overhaul. Originally, each T-72 was to be overhauled twice during its service life of 32 years. But as the overhaul agencies -- the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi; and 505 Army Base Workshop, Delhi [ Images ] -- failed to meet their overhaul targets of 70 and 50 tanks, respectively, the army decided that one overhaul was good enough. And, with even that schedule not implemented, a desperate MoD has approached Indian industry to play a role in overhauling the T-72 fleet.

The total expenditure on the T-72 tank, budgeted for AAP 2008-10, is over Rs 5000 crore. The cost of overhaul has not been accurately determined.

 

[Ray]

T-90 fires Refleks missile. Arjun tank has a similar missile but better range -



http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html



laser warners and smoke grenades are part of Arjun too sir.



http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html



http://sify.com/news/Arjun-s-time-has-come-imagegallery-others-kcejIxhcfac.html



T-90 armour is not good enough and hence needs ERA. Arjun does not need it because of its superior kanchan armour which has been proven against all known hesh and apfspds rounds including the israeli ones. if needed ERA can be added.



http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

also -



http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html



sir, can you elaborate on this? do you mean because of its weight?? but sir it is also poorly propelled by a weak engine!! will it not affect the performance?



sir designs are different. Abrams, Arjuns offer better protection and crew comfort against T-90. also they are built for survivability and still carry on. it is a trade off and hence higher weight. however that does not come in the way of their mobility. with better power/weight ratio and less nominal ground pressure, they offer better mobilty and manouerability too.



sir, this 1000hp engine on T-90 is suspect. it only offers 840hp.



http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

indian army was fooled by the russians. IIRC, the problem still persists. instead of confronting the russians not only on this and various other TOT issues and we are only rewarding them!!

if only the army was half supportive to Arjun, we would not be in this situation.



no sir. Arjun comes with modular design. it will be easy in terms of maintainence.



http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/nailing-some-more-falsehoods-about.html



the army bought a stripped down version of T-90 to gain the price advantage without shtora defensive systems. they were to be procured later as separate agreements. the cost as of now of T-90 is higher or equal to Arjun.



http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

Arjun costs 16 crore per piece!!



http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html



auto loaders may help the rate of fire but they have their own drawbacks both for loading and crew safety. but Arjun has better accuracy both static and on the move, consisitently above 90%. also -



http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs



agree sir it is heavy but it was the result of army's own specifications -

http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arjun-tank-development



but sir, does not that affect T-90 too?? moreover T-90 is underpowered which will have greater negative.



correct. but i still can't understand how it will not be effective in the other sectors? considering even T-90's will face the same set of problems.



agree but the difference in silhouette is very minor sir. in addition Arjun being superior in almost all parameteres and with BMS to boot which, will give a better situational awareness, i wonder if that makes much of a difference.



unfortunately they have been the biggest stumbling block. if they had inducted earlier, we would not be facing this. they have been only rewarding russians and living with the problems while resisting Arjun all the time even while problems whenever occured were set right.

also, if our army does not support our product which has proven to be better than their choice, who else to turn to?? is it right to live with foreign arm twists?? Russians have been found wanting on many T-90 related TOT issues!! should we not be independant wherever possible??



they have already created (even israelis accept it) which can be improved to even better. but that means army has to induct and then work with DRDO to incrementally over a period.that is how all systems evolve and that is the only way.

The comments are of an American and not mine.

I thought I ch
ould share.

 

[Daredevil]

Add double era to T-90 and we will be back where we started from won't we .......armour and weight is a compromise one would have to keep in mind .

And do not compare T-90 to T-72 ........its a couple of generations better .......the T-80 is better than T-72 and the T-90 is even better than T-80 , you might want to update your info. i have pasted T-90 and T-80 comparison back in this thread

Huh, T-90 is an upgraded version of T-72BM with the fire control system of T-80, addition of ERA and some modernization here and there. In fact, the T-90 prototype model was called T-72BU. The basic design flaws of 4 decades old T-72 are also carried by T-90. T-90 may be better than T-72 but not a big game changer versus T-80 which Pakistanis have.

It does not have an APS and .. it does not include cost of support vehicles ....... thats what i mean by naked tank ... is that not so ?

How mature is the APS is the question??. Has its effectiveness been tested?. Is it fail safe? If it fails what will be the fate of T-90 due to its weak armor (despite its ERA).

Similar protection measures are also employed in Arjun

It is protected by a laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection and suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in watertight containers to reduce the risk of fire.
http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

 

[Ray]

The ARjun tank must be good.

It has become bulky with all the add ons they have done.

I believe that the weight in not OK for ops in the Punjab and North.

Now, could anyone educate me was to why it is OK for the North and Punjab and why the Army or retired Armd C Generals like VK feels it is not OK?

 

[johnee]

Ray sir, just sent you a PM, please check.

 

[Ray]

I am not saying Arjun or T 90 or whatever is good or bad.

I am only saying that Ajai Shukla (who has Armour experience) or Shiv Aroor is right or wrong.

But to believe that the commentators are in the know of the issues of government and the Services is a bit too think to believe.

Ajai Shukla who was so anti Arjun is today its great batter, What changed his option he has still not clearly stated. We are aware how the media can be influenced.