Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[gogbot]

These 2 accounts count for nothing. Both have been roped in by the DRDO imho. Notice how they have been insinuating that Army is corrupt, DRDO innocent and rely on unnamed sources. Nothing they have is on record.

You telling me the same branch involved in the Bofors scandal.
and still has yet to induct another artillery piece since,

we have more than enough reason to ask the Army to explain it self

How much indigenous content does Arjun have ? How long was the Arjun gestation period ? How soon can Arjun be put on serial production ? How many Arjuns can be produced ?

10 years the same idiotic argument.

A production line already exists, 124 tanks have already been ordered. And nearly a regiment of Arjuns can be produced each year, Using the current production line.

Examine, how every other tank in the world saw its induction and development, never before has a road been so bumpy for any tank.

When Israel wanted to produce the Mekheava who thought their tanks were any good.
No doubt they wanted to get what they called superior American tanks in stead. And doubted their capability to even produce the tank that is up to standard.

We today had to send our Arjun to Israel to get an International quality check.
And produce their own cutting edge technology like TROPHY

Had we embraced the Arjun from the Start, the tank would already be Numbering in the thousands .

Abdul Kalam, would never accept that just because it is Indian does not mean it is behind. I adopt that same attitude.
Just because it is Indian does not mean there are compromises .

if the Army fails to accept a well performing Arjun.

They will never accept the Mk-2 or the FMBT.

By the time we will be putting Arjun in serial production, the West would've already started inducting NG MBT, far superior to Arjun.

get off the inferiority complex.

 

[Vinod2070]

Isn't there something fishy about the army trying to upgrade even the T-72s at massive costs to get an inferior product and showing the attitude only towards Arjun. Most of the excuses are pretty pathetic like T-90 is the natural successor to T-72! Just because the name says so?

Our military has been a lot more tolerant of faults in imported products than our own. This has to change and fast. Frankly it is difficult to believe there is no hanky panky in this whole thing about preference for imports.

 

[gogbot]

Isn't there something fishy about the army trying to upgrade even the T-72s at massive costs to get an inferior product and showing the attitude only towards Arjun. Most of the excuses are pretty pathetic like T-90 is the natural successor to T-72! Just because the name says so?

Our military has been a lot more tolerant of faults in imported products than our own. This has to change and fast. Frankly it is difficult to believe there is no hanky panky in this whole thing about preference for imports.

stuff must be happening behind closed doors.

some one in the government has to see something went a stray

 

[nitesh]

are yaar singh sahab you started it again (classic T 90 vs arjun) both sides have to take equal blame (DRDO for delay and IA for keep changing requirement) we can argue endlessly debate and never each to any conclusion (if we compare products) but all in all IA should nurture the product so that our industry can develop.

 

[Singh]

Isn't there something fishy about the army trying to upgrade even the T-72s at massive costs to get an inferior product and showing the attitude only towards Arjun. Most of the excuses are pretty pathetic like T-90 is the natural successor to T-72! Just because the name says so?

Our military has been a lot more tolerant of faults in imported products than our own. This has to change and fast. Frankly it is difficult to believe there is no hanky panky in this whole thing about preference for imports.

Wrong perspective,

New Arjuns cost close to 20 crores per unit. Upgradation cost of T-72s will come out to be 5 crores per unit.
It makes more economic sense to upgrade.

stuff must be happening behind closed doors.
some one in the government has to see something went a stray

Arjun is not even complete now. India ordered T90 a decade back and by the end of the year will operate perhaps close to a 1000 of them. What went astray ?

Are you trying to suggest that IA brass have powers of clairvoyance and they should've figured out that after close to 4 decades of development the DRDO would produce a tank which could compete with T90 from 2010 onwards ???

are yaar singh sahab you started it again (classic T 90 vs arjun) both sides have to take equal blame (DRDO for delay and IA for keep changing requirement) we can argue endlessly debate and never each to any conclusion (if we compare products) but all in all IA should nurture the product so that our industry can develop.

IA has already sought Russian help in developing NG-MBT, so why should we nurture Arjun ?

And inspite of GoI's best efforts in the last decade only 70lac rupees of FDI has been invested in Defence sector. So why setup DRDO for future failures ?

What is wrong with JVs and ToTs ?

 

[nitesh]

IA has already sought Russian help in developing NG-MBT, so why should we nurture Arjun ?

And inspite of GoI's best efforts in the last decade only 70lac rupees of FDI has been invested in Defence sector. So why setup DRDO for future failures ?

What is wrong with JVs and ToTs ?

By this logic IAF should stop plans for MCA also? So you are saying there is no point in going for Indian designs that's strange

 

[Singh]

By this logic IAF should stop plans for MCA also? So you are saying there is no point in going for Indian designs that's strange

I don't follow you argument. To reiterate my question - What's wrong with JVs and ToTs ? Why concentrate on indigenous and setup ourselves for failure ?

Old Joke applicable to India. In 1970 I started saving money for a new Cadillac. Iin 2010 I saved enough to buy a 1970 Cadillac. And 1970 Cadillac is a classic car

 

[nitesh]

I don't follow you argument. To reiterate my question - What's wrong with JVs and ToTs ? Why concentrate on indigenous and setup ourselves for failure ?

Old Joke applicable to India. In 1970 I started saving money for a new Cadillac. Iin 2010 I saved enough to buy a 1970 Cadillac. And 1970 Cadillac is a classic car

I am really not getting your argument kindly don't put un related arguments are you saying we should not pursue our own designs? Is I am arguing here that we should not look for JV or ToT? I don't think so if I have kindly point out the instance.

 

[Daredevil]

Arjun is not even complete now.

Wrong, Arjun in complete. That is why it is being inducted.

India ordered T90 a decade back and by the end of the year will operate perhaps close to a 1000 of them. What went astray ?

Currently India has 690 T-90 tanks. And so far, India has produced only 10 T-90 tanks from 2008-2009. More Arjun tanks are produced in India than T-90 tanks. The plan is to produce 1000 T-90 tanks in India by 2020. So we cannot reach the figure of 1000 by the end of this year given the current sluggishness in the manufacturing of T-90.

Are you trying to suggest that IA brass have powers of clairvoyance and they should've figured out that after close to 4 decades of development the DRDO would produce a tank which could compete with T90 from 2010 onwards ???

Yup, sabotage of Arjun trials was suspected that a blackbox had to be installed to avoid further tinkering. Incidentally, the engine troubles that were plaguing the Arjun during trials before installing blackbox have suddenly disappeared after installing black box.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...tank-engine-black-box-installed_10070965.html

IA has already sought Russian help in developing NG-MBT, so why should we nurture Arjun ?

IA is not yet clear with what is wants from FMBT going by the open sources and I'm not sure if India has asked for Russian help in FMBT program. Any sources??

 

[gogbot]

Wrong perspective,

New Arjuns cost close to 20 crores per unit. Upgradation cost of T-72s will come out to be 5 crores per unit.
It makes more economic sense to upgrade.

You have no problem using 3000, 40 year old design T-72's

when according to you the rest of the world is developing NG-MBT

that is alight in your mind.

But inducting the current generation Arjun would reek of obsolescence in your mind is it.

such hypocrisy.

The Arjun has an advanced design and is an in house product.

It can be continually evolved. and changed to meet the battlefield requirement.
tell me the same thing about the T-72's the army plans to keep until 2030.

Arjun is not even complete now. India ordered T90 a decade back and by the end of the year will operate perhaps close to a 1000 of them. What went astray ?

Are you trying to suggest that IA brass have powers of clairvoyance and they should've figured out that after close to 4 decades of development the DRDO would produce a tank which could compete with T90 from 2010 onwards ???



IA has already sought Russian help in developing NG-MBT, so why should we nurture Arjun ?

And inspite of GoI's best efforts in the last decade only 70lac rupees of FDI has been invested in Defence sector. So why setup DRDO for future failures ?

What is wrong with JVs and ToTs ?

You are seriously mis-informed

Even i have spoken to a few people in the army. they spoke to me of all people.

And you know what they say, The Arjun as is now is great tank. But it became the proven great tank to late. Had the army accepted the Arjun in 2003 then there would be no problems today.

Now its too late they say. Logistics has been built around the T-90 and T-72
Its logistics and other issues that are holding it back

It will apparently call for major effort to retool the system, or that's what they have been told.

Frankly if they had to get the Arjun , they would make it work. DRDO has developed all the necessary tools and network all the army has to do is implement and expand on it



The Arjun is fully operational, and the only challenge ahead is one of internal politics and bureaucracy.

 

[Singh]

Wrong, Arjun in complete. That is why it is being inducted.

Wrong. Arjun failed its last trials. 124 were ordered under pressure.

Currently India has 690 T-90 tanks. And so far, India has produced only 10 T-90 tanks from 2008-2009. More Arjun tanks are produced in India than T-90 tanks. The plan is to produce 1000 T-90 tanks in India by 2020. So we cannot reach the figure of 1000 by the end of this year given the current sluggishness in the manufacturing of T-90.

The low production was due to ToT issues which were resolved.

Yup, sabotage of Arjun trials was suspected that a blackbox had to be installed to avoid further tinkering. Incidentally, the engine troubles that were plaguing the Arjun during trials before installing blackbox have suddenly disappeared after installing black box.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...tank-engine-black-box-installed_10070965.html

Horse Puckey by DRDO to save its hide. Army didn't even dignify DRDO's allegations.

IA is not yet clear with what is wants from FMBT going by the open sources and I'm not sure if India has asked for Russian help in FMBT program. Any sources??

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/21russia.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/22tank.htm
--------

You have no problem using 3000, 40 year old design T-72's
when according to you the rest of the world is developing NG-MBT
that is alight in your mind.
But inducting the current generation Arjun would reek of obsolescence in your mind is it.
such hypocrisy.

Induct Arjun and kill funds for Future MBT ?
We already have ordered 1000s of world class T90s which are more than sufficient to meet current challenges.
T72's can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost and no money required for re-training.

The Arjun has an advanced design and is an in house product.
It can be continually evolved. and changed to meet the battlefield requirement.
tell me the same thing about the T-72's the army plans to keep until 2030.

F-22 is the most advanced craft. Guess what US ended the Raptor programme in favour of F-35.

T90 can be continually evolved, at the same time we can induct NG-MBT.
T72 will be there to bolster the numbers.

You are seriously mis-informed
Even i have spoken to a few people in the army. they spoke to me of all people.
And you know what they say, The Arjun as is now is great tank. But it became the proven great tank to late. Had the army accepted the Arjun in 2003 then there would be no problems today.
Now its too late they say. Logistics has been built around the T-90 and T-72
Its logistics and other issues that are holding it back

It will apparently call for major effort to retool the system, or that's what they have been told.

Frankly if they had to get the Arjun , they would make it work. DRDO has developed all the necessary tools and network all the army has to do is implement and expand on it

The Arjun is fully operational, and the only challenge ahead is one of internal politics and bureaucracy.

Thank You. In 2003 Arjun was nowhere the product it is "claimed" to be today. Hence the IA's aversion.
Today Arjun could be a good tank but it will not be inducted in any significant number because it doesn't make sense.


----------------

I am really not getting your argument kindly don't put un related arguments are you saying we should not pursue our own designs? Is I am arguing here that we should not look for JV or ToT? I don't think so if I have kindly point out the instance.

Yes I am saying we should not pursue our own designs in areas (which we have failed miserably and had to rely on expensive imports) where we can collaborate with others. Esp when our successes in domestic endeavors have been less than spectacular and successes of others are visible.


O/T
To answer your question in a previous post, yes going for MCA is, imho, stupid and a waste of time and money. Esp when we are already co-operating on Pak-Fa, can join F-35, Boeing's 6th gen fighter programme, EF Typhoon future development programmes and are still to induct LCA.

 

[nitesh]

Yes I am saying we should not pursue our own designs in areas (which we have failed miserably and had to rely on expensive imports) where we can collaborate with others. Esp when our successes in domestic endeavors have been less than spectacular and successes of others are visible.


O/T
To answer your question in a previous post, yes going for MCA is, imho, stupid and a waste of time and money. Esp when we are already co-operating on Pak-Fa, can join F-35, Boeing's 6th gen fighter programme, EF Typhoon future development programmes and are still to induct LCA.

So according to you we should never learn designing the whole system and always depend on others. At least I am getting this impression correct me if I am wrong

 

[Daredevil]

Singh, I'll get back to you later with more facts to show that how wrong Army is in choosing T-90 over Arjun and how harmful it is to the crew of the T-90 tanks. Later.

 

[sayareakd]

Guys good news has come, hearest congratulations to all including DRDO Arjun tank team, 43rd regiment of IA and to all and everyone who had faith in Arjun tank.

now lets wait for the final report.

and to all the septics, guys please have faith Arjun is good product, it messed up due to Arms dealers and brokers lust for more money.

 

[gogbot]

Wrong. Arjun failed its last trials. 124 were ordered under pressure.

Prove it.

every office will admit the Arjun mature platform.

The army would not even induct it to fill the 124 orders if it had not met the GSQR requirements in the first place.

Induct Arjun and kill funds for Future MBT ?

The army does not pay a dime for R&D.

All Reaserach is done by DRDO and other PSU's .

If anything they would be pouring money in to the project by Buying their products.

Also the army is pulling your leg.

they have no plans on inducting any new tank till 2020. when all the T-90's have been produced.

So that FMBT they keep talking about is 10 years away

We already have ordered 1000s of world class T90s which are more than sufficient to meet current challenges.

We have only ordered 1500 T-90's , and plan on maintain over 3000 T-72's .

And we can only make another 1000 T-90's by 2020.

Look it up, our tank fleet is actually weakening compared to our enemies.

Fleet size is more or less the same.

No new tanks replacing older models.

and our tanks just ageing, with only one new addition being the T-90 and only 1500 orders.
Out of which only 300 are BS. the rest are just standard export models.

T72's can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost and no money required for re-training.

Use old vintage era T-72's .
As opposed to buying an in house product that can last double the time and maintain a far greater operational capabilities.

Mig-21's can be upgraded , why is the IAF gettign rid of them.
By that logic why upgrade at all we can just keep on extending the life of all our systems.

You are taking an obsolete system and beating life into it.

Why were the T-72's absent at the Arjun trials.
Its because there is no comparison.

It was removed from the trial. to hid the disparity.

F-22 is the most advanced craft. Guess what US ended the Raptor programme in favour of F-35.

They are in no way the same situation.

The F-22 was a cash cow, and the US was cutting Back. It was also a plane not deployed anywhere.
The moment they need more F-22's

they will just pick up with the F-22A

Stop comparing cars to buildings

T90 can be continually evolved, at the same time we can induct NG-MBT.

T72 will be there to bolster the numbers.

T-72 , designed and produced in the 70's .
India;s fleet numbers 3000.

So by 2020. the Indian army plans to have 3000.

you see the joke, we will never have more T-90's then T-72's

Buy wasting this decade, we have to wait till the nest to induct a new platform.

Thank You. In 2003 Arjun was nowhere the product it is "claimed" to be today. Hence the IA's aversion.
Today Arjun could be a good tank but it will not be inducted in any significant number because it doesn't make sense.

You don't make sense.

You admit the Arjun is a good tank and then say we should not induct as it does not make any sense.

 

[Agantrope]

Congratulation to DRDO and CVRDE team. Now i can confirm that atleast 276+ orders will be given for arjun

To Singh

Arjun was evaluated by a Israel Agency and they certified it has good Tank.

 

[sayareakd]

Congratulation to DRDO and CVRDE team. Now i can confirm that atleast 276+ orders will be given for arjun

To Singh

Arjun was evaluated by a Israel Agency and they certified it has good Tank.

Sri 276 is just too small number, if GOI want to brake even for the tank factory then at least 500 units of Arjun MK-I, till such time MK-II comes into picture.

plus can you please tell us what is the rate of production per year of OFB (HVF) for ARjun tank.

 

[bengalraider]

Sri 276 is just too small number, if GOI want to brake even for the tank factory then at least 500 units of Arjun MK-I, till such time MK-II comes into picture.

plus can you please tell us what is the rate of production per year of OFB (HVF) for ARjun tank.

the rate of production of the arjun at HVF avadi is 50 units annually.

 

[nitesh]

saya boss agan means over and above the existing orders

 

[Dark_Prince]

Here you go without the B word fr IA procurement team!

My earlier message without B world:

Congrats to DRDO and CVRDE, IA procurement team should shut up and stop being open "cut seeking" shameless bafoons (B word replaced by another word starting with B). Whatever is best for the country should be selected, and Arjun is surly on top!!