Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Armand2REP

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enlightened1 said:
Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.
BS... the Sarvatra assault bridge was designed to handle Arjun. IA has no choice but to induct it into the Strike Corps now. Arjun is clearly superior to the outdated T-90 and proved it. T-72 upgrades to be cancelled and the rest retired with Arjun replacing them. Orders of T-90 can be cut back since it is so inferior.
 
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WoW guys, I AM SPEECHLESS. From all the badmouthing Arjun has faced from IA and nicknames like " ARJUNK, Failed project" from our western neighbors. Arjun has got up and SLAPPED the taste out of their mouth. All cheap low blows and propaganda from our Pakistani friends is reduced to DIRT. LCA will be the next to deliver a kick on their backsides. They have made themselves a laughing stock of the world, A VODKA TODAY ON SUCCESS OF ARJUN AND DRDO

“The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen”, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun.

“The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun’s strong performance,” an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. “But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.”

These gullibles don't have enough space to hide now. I wonder if they are able to sit for 3 weeks by the sore backside beating given by arjun.
 

Rage

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http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/arjun-in-present-form-can-never-be-our.html

Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible.
Now ain't that bloody hell interestin'!

I found this very, very revealing article on the political dimensions of the Arjun tank on FrontierIndia:



Passion of the Arjun Tank

February 8th, 2010


For those who don’t know, I have titled the headline based on “The Passion of the Christ,” which is a religious film produced in 2004. It is based on the New Testament accounts of the arrest, trial, torture, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, events commonly known as The Passion. Before some hackles are raised, I am not trying to compare the Arjun Tank with the bible story.

One more point I would like to emphasize is that I am not against the Russian T-90 Tank. This is for my friends who have repeatedly pointed out “the fact” that I am anti T-90. Most of the time, I have put up the other side of the fence, whenever there has been attempt to malign the Arjun Tank. Many a times, I have been informed that Frontier India Strategic and Defence” has the most comprehensive collection of data, facts and stories. While I always take it as an compliment, some indicated that it proves I am anti T-90.

For starters, whoever is working overtime on the anti-Arjun Tank campaign has been responsible for the demonization of the T-90 in Indian service. There are some points to be considered: The anti Arjun Tank camp is normally Indians. If there are Russians behind it, then I would say these Russians are doing their job and doing it for the best of their country. Russia has great generals who make these tanks and great statesmen who would like India to posses these toys for its defense. On the other hand, we have Indian generals. They could or could not be thinking about their own country. Let me give them the benefit of the doubt and say that, they indeed want the best for their country. But, having said that, even with the best of thei intentions, we have clearly very “vision” challenged generals when compared to Russian, American or Israeli generals who make their own stuff and fight.

I have seen the arguments that the DRDO has not made tanks up to standards, and hence we import. At the same time, we have seen the development histories of tanks around the world. Majority of the tanks have been adopted by their armies when these tanks were not up to the mark. Subsequently, they have evolved into tanks at a state that, Indian generals drool over them. Infact, our generals wanted an Israeli company to evaluate if the Arjun was good or bad. Then, they wanted the DRDO to improve the tank as per the recommendations of the Israeli company. Is the Army incapable of making a qualitative requirement for itself and to evaluate it themselves?

The habit of changing qualitative requirements to suit imports was the brain child of General Gopal Gurunath Bewoor. While he was the Deputy Chief of Army Staff (1967 – 1973), he earned a dubious distinction of changing the qualitative requirement that led to the purchase and license production of SS11B1 and the death of the Indian Anti-Tank Missile program. Who can argue that General Gopal Gurunath Bewoor was not a good Army Chief? Was there any foreign lobby involved?

I must admit that the Indian Army has an history of using Indian equipment. Most of them were originally shoddy quality from the Indian public sector units and defence production units (DPSU). DRDO was in infancy then. So was the Indian Navy. I am not trying to pitch the Indian Army vs the Indian Navy. But let me give you an example: The Indian Air force, wanted a replacement for the MiG-21’s. The light combat aircraft, though has not achieved the newly formed “air staff requirement,” the IAF is willing to take a specified number of LCA’s. Why? Because they think that the LCA, even in its current form, is better than the MiG-21’s in service. Indian Army had a similar chance back in the 1980’s when they scuttled the induction of the Arjun Tank in favour of T-72 tanks. Look at Akaash Missile induction into the IAF and recent orders.

Armed Forces Chiefs can make or break history. IAF chief’s have been not very dynamic in this respect. I am not implying that they were not competent in other departments. It took former Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major to push the much needed change in Indian Air Force mentality. In the Indian Army, Gen. Shankar Roy Chowdhury was the only general who made a difference. Most other Army chiefs were not in his grade in this respect. There is an argument that the Indian Army is the user and not an R&D or production unit. An argument which is flawed. The mismanagement and frequent attacks on the Arjun Tank project by the Army has attracted worldwide attention. The Arjun Tank project detractors were largely responsible for the popularity of the project. I would like to give you an example: When the media is invited to any of the armed forces events, they expect the media not to ask ugly questions, eat refreshments and then print their press releases. But media always seeks sensation. Press releases don’t sell. Look then who is bad mouthing the Arjun project? It is the 'anonymous' Army officers and some retired army officers. They succeed in feeding sensational news about constant failures of the project. Then the media totally somersaulted. When it was pointed out to them that there was a likely sabotage of Arjun Tank trials, they realized that it was a bigger sensation than the regular news feature. It was a matter of DRDO establishing its Public Interface Directorate that the anti Arjun Tank camp faltered. Under strict media and political glare, Arjun Tank showed up its mettle. Naysayers could not manipulate the results. I had previously written that the Indian Army would cook up during the AUCRT trials. It came as no surprise then that the Indian Army reported in parliament that Arjun Tanks failed.

Hypothetically, if the Russians were very concerned about the image of the T-90, then they should be sacking their Indian agents (both the official and unofficial ones). T-90 tank purchase was a knee jerk reaction to T-80 sale by Ukraine to our 'pesky neighbor'. The T-90 tanks came with their set of inefficiencies which were greater than the Arjun tanks advertised deficiencies. There is another aspect to T-90 purchase. The Indian Army gives the linage argument. T-90 is a logical successor to the T-72, they say, an argument which the Russian army does not buy.The Russians want the Black Eagle, a fifth generation tank. Now, if you read carefully the press reports after the acquisition of T-72, these tanks were always under performing. Retired Tankers have said so. They prefer the Chieftains and Centurions. The T-72 tank was an interim main battle tank in 1979. Since the tanks were worse at the other side of the border, it was okay. Subsequently it was the DRDO which improved the T-72 and it was called the combat-improved 'Ajeya'. When Pakistan acquired T-80 tanks, Russia gave a proposal to improve T-72. Since the DRDO came up with the Tank-Ex upgrade, the Indian Army did not want a T-72 upgrade. (you can read Indian Armies reaction here.) So, the Indian Army pushed for the T-90. It was not the issue that the enemy Pakistan had bought T-80’s, the issue was the enemy DRDO came up with the Tank-Ex upgrade.

I would like to add one more point here: A lot has been said about Indian Army problems with the DRDO. Less has been said about the DRDO’s problem with the Indian Army. It is not just the egos Indian Army officers have inherited from the British. They have also acquired the traits of colonial British masters when dealing with other Indians. I am sure, I have generalized this. But, how far is it away from the truth? Some time ago a DRDO project manager wanted to demonstrate equipment to the Indian Army. His main concern was not the demonstration, which was sanctioned, but, where he and his teammates would stay. The place was a remote place, distant from civilization. “You see, they (the Indian Army) have quarters there, but not for us” he explained defensively. After some discussion on Indian Army attitude, he sought to defend the Indian Army by saying that “customers are never satisfied.” DRDO has bent backwards to accommodate the Army’s daunting requests, which later goes on to boomerang on the DRDO. The relationship is equally strained both ways.

Then there is the other argument that the Arjun Tank was not available when the Army needed it. Some time back, I was chatting with two retired senior army officers. The point came up. One of the officers observed dryly that “ the Army did not induct the Arjun Tank.” Actually, this example can be seen in the sequence of events after 1996, when Arjun Tanks displayed that they was fit for induction as per the last of the Army's qualitative requirements.

The Army has not been entirely out of the loop in developing the tank. There are two names of Indian Army personnel whom I wish to mention or my article will not be complete: One is Lt.Gen Ajai Singh who is the governor of Assam state in India. He was responsible for the rejuvenation of the Arjun Tank project. The other is Retired Major General H.M Singh. He has been with the Arjun Tank project for in excess of 20 years. A die-hard Arjun Tank backer. The 43rd armored regiment have been involved in the development and testing of the Arjun Tanks. They have seen various versions of this tank. They say every cloud has its silver lining.

Some sections feel the Arjun Tank will not get a fair trial by the Army. Some say even that the Army does not have the competency pr is not willing to evaluate the Arjun Tank. There is an anecdote. While the Arjun Tank was on trial, the engine compressor broke down. The engine was replaced in less than 30 minutes and the tank was up and running. The engine can be repaired and put on to the next tank. Where as if the same thing happens to the T-90, it is grounded till the repairs are effected. It may take in excess of 3 hours. So, finally when the report reached the Army HQ, it stated:

Arjun Tank: engine broken. Complete replacement
T-90: engine broken, repaired.

There is yet another anecdote. The Advanced Light helicopters built by the HAL in Army service were running huge repair bills inspite of the Army being specifically told that ALH does not need as many services as a Chetak helicopter.

There is a view that the Army had issued a GSQR to see that the Arjun Tank does not fructify ever. DRDO pulled a fast one on them by importing all it cannot make in time and put together the Arjun tank. If the Army orders it, it will indigenise it as much as possible. So, Arjun detractors ended up blaming it for its imported content. They forgot that the T-90 was not even an Indian design.

In India, there is no professional independent agency that can interface between the R&D, production and the user. The US has it. The Russians have the military backing their R&D centers. So do others.

Like the rest of us apprehensive Indians, I am eagerly looking forward to the Arjun Tank vs T-90 comparative trials. Is the anti Arjun Tank lobby avoiding these trials for obvious reasons?


http://frontierindia.net/tank-ex-ideal-t-72-upgrades
 

gogbot

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nitesh

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livefist always breaks the news early.

But they are not always completely accurate.

Livefit said no new Arjuns will be ordered and the chapter was closed just a few weeks ago.

Today the situation seems to have changed.

Arjun needs to get a minimum of 500 orders,
with a MK-2 in development.
If you ask me I want minimum of 1000 in service (mk1 2 or 3 I don't care :D) but once if IA orders DRDO has to put there socks up and make a concentrated effort towards making in house engine and transmission system. I feel optimistic about more orders but not total to 500 (means 376 more) but I think another 124 to take total level to approx 250 and then mark 2 to come
 

ajtr

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As the livefist article suggest that army is still not keen on Arjun as MBT.Army want FMBT but dont know how it should look like or its capabilities.Army is as confused with the concept of FMBT as it 30years back was when the project Arjun was conceived.Hence we saw so many GSQR's from army.Hard reality is Army is like a confused wife who goes to shop in a mall without any idea what she wants.she roam about whole mall end up buying some worst quality good which appeal to her in look and the poor husband(here govt.) has to pay from his nose for it.
 

johnee

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The army must encourage our indigeneous projects, thats what other armies did and then their products developed over course of time. Rejecting Arjun again and again on debatable grounds must not be overlooked especially if there is an element of doubt about middleman-nexus-sabotage involved.
 

gogbot

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If you ask me I want minimum of 1000 in service (mk1 2 or 3 I don't care :D) but once if IA orders DRDO has to put there socks up and make a concentrated effort towards making in house engine and transmission system. I feel optimistic about more orders but not total to 500 (means 376 more) but I think another 124 to take total level to approx 250 and then mark 2 to come
well i am looking at it from a point of logistics.

500 is a reasonable number of tanks we can make by the time the MK-2 is ready. 5-6 years from now.

Also inducting more Arjuns mean the Army is more inclined to set up the army infrastructure for the Arjuns instead of Russian tanks.
The more infrastructure and logistics that exist for the Arjun by the time the Mk-2 rolls out, the more MK-2 will be ordered and the faster they will be delivered, and their approval will also be easier to obtain from he army.

The IA is right about one thing
We at this point cant Do a mass induction of Arjun's our logistical networks just are not set up for a new platform like the Arjun, the more MK-1 are ordered as the Mk02 is being developed, the more the logistics networks are upgraded to handle more Arjun regiments. We have to weed away our T-72 networks and replace with Arjun, that takes time. Also there needs to be a sufficient stockpile of spares and Ammo for the Arjun. that also takes time.

at this point we are easily looking at another order of 124 tanks for two more regiments.

But i would hope this is punched up to at least 250 tanks for four regiments. That way the whole project can finally break even. and invested money is well spent.

also taking a look at the Tank-EX may also be possible as an upgrade for the T-72 fleets.

This will also make Tank logistics, tactics and formations more Arjun oriented, making the only rational option for an MBT from here on forth be an Indian platform.
 

gogbot

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did you observe you dont have t-90 tank in the list of world class tanks .lol
THE T-90 is different weight class of tanks.

Al the tanks displayed as world class, are tanks from around the world that are in the same heavy armour and weight class as the Arjun.

The T-90 is medium class tank. in terms of weight and armour. Its gun is just as powerful as any other tank. and its capabilities are world class.

You cant compare the t-90 and Arjun head on. The difference between them is the same as the difference between the MMRCA requirement and MKI .
 

Singh

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We all are going to believe Col Shukla now ? The same guy who was anti-DRDO once upon a time.

Gentlemen, the stakes are high, and DRDO is trying to salvage its reputation. I maintain Army knows better. And not to forget 1000s of T-90 are already in production, whereas Arjun is still undergoing trials.

Lets wait for the Army's report. It certainly carries more weight than Col Shukla's articles relying on "unnamed" sources and "unsubstantiated" claims.
 

Singh

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THE T-90 is different weight class of tanks.

Al the tanks displayed as world class, are tanks from around the world that are in the same heavy armour and weight class as the Arjun.

The T-90 is medium class tank. in terms of weight and armour. Its gun is just as powerful as any other tank. and its capabilities are world class.

You cant compare the t-90 and Arjun head on. The difference between them is the same as the difference between the MMRCA requirement and MKI .
All these tanks have been in service for years whereas Arjun still undergoing "trials". And yes you can and must compare Arjun and T90s because both are competing for the role of MBT in the IA.
 

gogbot

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Now ain't that bloody hell interestin'!

I found this very, very revealing article on the political dimensions of the Arjun tank on FrontierIndia:



Passion of the Arjun Tank

February 8th, 2010


Agree with you Rage

the 10 year long battle for the Arjun has certainly worn down all those involved.

One thing i have to agree with from the source

"It is unhealthy how things have progressed, though I can say in the last three years there appears to be a much greater empathy between the Army and DRDO about how to take things forward. Let's hope it continues."
"Admittedly, the trials may not go a long way in resurrecting Arjun as some quarters have been led to believe, but it has been a healthy exercise and the Army is in a strong position now to use the Arjun to the best of its abilities. The tank has been given its due."


this is not how weapons systems should be developed and then inducted. Moving forward knowing that the Arjun is out in the sun id the only way forward. For one thing A MK-2 Arjun is wanted, but not necessary for induction of the Arjun platform by the army.


DRDO needs to get solid support for the Mk-2 or FMBT. we have to ensure this kind of quagmire never happens again. If anything we should take from this is how prevent something like this happening again.

The Arjun artillery and Tank-EX need a green light.

The Armed forces is being left behind in the dust but the other branches that have already embraced indigenous technology and platforms.
 

Daredevil

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We all are going to believe Col Shukla now ? The same guy who was anti-DRDO once upon a time.

Gentlemen, the stakes are high, and DRDO is trying to salvage its reputation. I maintain Army knows better. And not to forget 1000s of T-90 are already in production, whereas Arjun is still undergoing trials.

Lets wait for the Army's report. It certainly carries more weight than Col Shukla's articles relying on "unnamed" sources and "unsubstantiated" claims.
Singh, we have same information from two different journalists (Aroor and Shukla). I would say its not coincidence but the mere facts. Arjun is definitely better than T-90 and is on par with other tanks of the world, if not better, if you have a look at the comparison chart that Sridhar has posted in the previous page.
 

Singh

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Singh, we have same information from two different journalists (Aroor and Shukla). I would say its not coincidence but the mere facts. Arjun is definitely better than T-90 and is on par with other tanks of the world, if not better, if you have a look at the comparison chart that Sridhar has posted in the previous page.
These 2 accounts count for nothing. Both have been roped in by the DRDO imho. Notice how they have been insinuating that Army is corrupt, DRDO innocent and rely on unnamed sources. Nothing they have is on record.

That comparision chart counts for nada. I just saw an ad today where a DC modified Innova is touted to be better than the Rolls Royce and he is also touting a Comparison Chart.
How much indigenous content does Arjun have ? How long was the Arjun gestation period ? How soon can Arjun be put on serial production ? How many Arjuns can be produced ?

By the time we will be putting Arjun in serial production, the West would've already started inducting NG MBT, far superior to Arjun.
 

gogbot

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All these tanks have been in service for years whereas Arjun still undergoing "trials". And yes you can and must compare Arjun and T90s because both are competing for the role of MBT in the IA.
But that is losing perspective.

the army is the one who should have spelled out what kind of tank they wanted from the start.

Producing the lighter and less armoured tank would have been a lot easier for DRDO then producing a heavy armoured and heavy weight Arjun, which no doubt needed more advanced materials and far more capable traction and suspension and weight distribution.

As a result we today have two different types of MBT in our inventory, Both are built for different roles and scenarios.
The heavy armoured Arjun came about when Pakistan was rumoured to be getting the M1 abrams from the US. And we needed a tank killer to challenge that threat So the Heavy Arjun came to be. While the Pakistani M1 never materialised. The Arjun has.
So the Amry HQ in its infinite wisdom opted for the T-90. and then spent the next 10 years trying to crush the Arjun. Upon realising that was not gonna happen. they started saying MK-2 and FMBT. None of which have they even provided the requirements far.
Least DRDO meet those as well.

What ever happened for the events of the last 10 years, it was something rotten in the army. hopefully it has been crushed by now

This comes down to IA accepting, DRDO can make a Good tank.

The T-90 is good tank, but we needed to get Arjun inducted it was a matter of mentality and policy. If we are ever to achieve 70% domestic capability, our armed forces need to have faith in our own products.

regardless of which tank becomes the MBT and as long as the T-72 is scrapped and Arjun chosen as replacement, we should all be happy.

As long as the army see's the value of its own home grown industry, it was 10 year battle worth fighting for.
 

nrj

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I think irrespective of IA orders, DRDO should get MOD permission & rope ARJUN in International Market. Atleast they can make money put into programme & earn some reputation in market...
 

Daredevil

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These 2 accounts count for nothing. Both have been roped in by the DRDO imho. Notice how they have been insinuating that Army is corrupt, DRDO innocent and rely on unnamed sources. Nothing they have is on record.
Don't worry, we will wait till there will be official report on this, if it ever come out in open. But still, these two journalists have good reach and they have no reason to lie especially when Shukla has criticized Arjun in its previous form. But Arjun has come of its age to prove itself better than T-90.

How much indigenous content does Arjun have ?
How long was the Arjun gestation period ? How soon can Arjun be put on serial production ? How many Arjuns can be produced ?
Arjun is still not completely indigenous but w have control over what we can do with it. Gestation period of Arjun has to do with ever changing GSQR of Army and also lapse on part of DRDO. Arjun can get into serial production much faster than T-90 can get into. Avadi already has a installed capability to manufacture 50 Arjuns per year. If there is increase in the number of orders, I'm sure that can be scaled up.

By the time we will be putting Arjun in serial production, the West would've already started inducting NG MBT, far superior to Arjun.
Our competition is not with west. Our tanks are solely directed against pakistani T-80 tanks. There is still more scope for improvement in Arjun and it can be done all along during the future inductions while T-90 in the terms of improvement is at a dead end.

The simple fact and the problem is that Arjun is being rejected by Army in favor of much inferior T-90. That has to change and there should be more orders for Arjun than the current 124.
 

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