Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Ray]

for think read thick.

I somehow cannot edit. It comes up with some nonsense called 'reputation' of which I could not care less!

 

[notinlove]

Huh, T-90 is an upgraded version of T-72BM with the fire control system of T-80, addition of ERA and some modernization here and there. In fact, the T-90 prototype model was called T-72BU. The basic design flaws of 4 decades old T-72 are also carried by T-90. T-90 may be better than T-72 but not a big game changer versus T-80 which Pakistanis have.

You can believe what you want to believe....... but i suggest you go through the thread once again.I don't want to repost the information i posted 2 months before.

How mature is the APS is the question??. Has its effectiveness been tested?. Is it fail safe? If it fails what will be the fate of T-90 due to its weak armor (despite its ERA).

Don't you get the argument ? .. its never about the credibility of the APS ..its about the cost... remove the cost of APS and the support vehicles and the T-90 would be cheaper.......... When calculating the cost of T-90 you include the cost of APS and support vehicles but while calculating the cost of arjun you don't take them into account .. interesting ain't it ?

BTW APS is different from thos Laser warning system and smoke grenades you are talking about.

 

[Daredevil]

Don't you get the argument ? .. its never about the credibility of the APS ..its about the cost... remove the cost of APS and the support vehicles and the T-90 would be cheaper.......... When calculating the cost of T-90 you include the cost of APS and support vehicles but while calculating the cost of arjun you don't take them into account .. interesting ain't it ?

There might not be a need of APS on Arjun as it being already equipped with similar counter measures as that of APS (see my previous post). So we don't have to include cost of APS in Arjun. Simple, ain't it?.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

I am not saying Arjun or T 90 or whatever is good or bad.

I am only saying that Ajai Shukla (who has Armour experience) or Shiv Aroor is right or wrong.

But to believe that the commentators are in the know of the issues of government and the Services is a bit too think to believe.

Ajai Shukla who was so anti Arjun is today its great batter, What changed his option he has still not clearly stated. We are aware how the media can be influenced.

Sir,

fact remains these people are on payrolls of certain organizations and get compensated in various ways, not only was col ajai shukla anti arjun but he was a diehard anti anything indigenous, and those were the days he was with ndtv.

today it’s a whole lot different and he cant find anything wrong with the tank and every thing wrong with the IA. such people should be least trusted who just keep harping one side of the story, which eventually amounts to a fan-boyish syndrome, and when these people are where they are having a fan following and a readership following like none other then rest assured they would be taken care off real handsomely by people pushing their agenda through them. a ajai shukla or a shiv aroor would be last chaps to be believed on face value for sure, they always have unknown sources supporting their claims, which is nothing but trying to legitimize their agenda, and most of us tend to fall for such stuff.

that said, the reports on arjun do seem to be correct as it has been picked up across the board but still it is coming mostly out from people who have been pro-arjun, but there does seem a larger consensus on the issue.

this move could as well be a move to pre-empt any criticism from the IA on arjun, but that looks a case highly unlikely.

 

[notinlove]

There might not be a need of APS on Arjun as it being already equipped with similar counter measures as that of APS (see my previous post). So we don't have to include cost of APS in Arjun. Simple, ain't it?.

You dont get it ... no tank is totally safe ..... the ATGM's today are just too powerful.... if you have an APS its always a plus point , might or might not is just a theoretical argument...... even without APS T-90 can take hits from T-80 and still fire..

If you wanna cut it with just smoke grenade and laser warning approach systems .. good for you ... we will see how those would work against unguided RPG-29 salvos fired from a close range.

and once again those systems and APS are two VERY different things

 

[Iamanidiot]

Ray sir
A question for you when designing a system such as the insas rifleor the arjun tank do they take the army officers into consideration when doing requirement analysis.Or they design some odd contraptio and throw on the armys face without consulting the army.If that is the case then the army has everyright to reject the odd contraptions of the DRDO

 

[ppgj]

Just to Bust several myths flying around here .........

1. The 8 km range of Lahat sound's mighty impressive ....but it would be limited to around 6 km due to Horizon...if you can't target it .. you can't hit it ...until unless you are using uav or other methods of targeting.

horizon only IMO, should not matter for 8km. Lahat has been tested in india and has been accepted.

The LAHAT missile has a range of 8 km when launched from a ground platform, and up to 13 km, when deployed from high elevation. The missile hits the target at an accuracy of 0.7meter CEP and an angle of over 30 degrees, providing effective penetration of up to 800mm of armor steel by the high performance warhead. The missile weighs 13kg, and a quad launcher which can be carried by ground or aerial platforms, weighs 75kg, including four missiles.

IAI has recently completed a successful series of test firing on the Arjun tank in India, and is negotiating local production if a planned procurement of Lahat for the entire Arjun fleet planned for the Indian Armor will materialize.

http://defense-update.com/directory/lahat.htm

2. nobody ever gave the proof that arjun took a hit from T-72 and still ROLLED ON last i heard the correct term was Survived and not rolled on ....and just to put this in perspective , T-90 took direct hits from T-80 and was still able to FIRE....suffice to say , arjun provides similar armour even after being 10-12 tonnes heavier. interested members can see the trial reports of T-90 provided on this very thread by me about a couple of months back.

it has been tested against T-72. don't have the link. when i get it will post.

as for T-90 another weakness is -

The most important feature of Arjun Tank is crew protection due to kanchan Armour. Though protection wise bit better than T-72, the Crew in T-90S tank directly sits over the ammunition making it a death trap for Indian Army personnel in case of being hit and penetrated.

http://frontierindia.net/five-hundred-arjun-tank-orders-needed-for-project-breakeven

Arjun's storage being separate also gives it an advantage for survivability.

3. the 18 crore figure being provided for T-90 is with all the bells and whistles and also including the cost of support vehicles and APS ...whereas the 16 crore cost of arjun is for a naked tank.

can you backup your claim? that the cost of T-90 includes the cost of support vehicles?

4.
This statement is pure bullshit , the kontakt and kaktus are Heavy ERA and not Light ERA that the author seems to be touting them as , Heavy ERA can tackle APFSDS rounds very credibly.

chackojoseph is a member here. he may throw light on this point when he reads up because he wrote that article.

 

[ppgj]

There might not be a need of APS on Arjun as it being already equipped with similar counter measures as that of APS (see my previous post). So we don't have to include cost of APS in Arjun. Simple, ain't it?.

You dont get it ... no tank is totally safe ..... the ATGM's today are just too powerful.... if you have an APS its always a plus point , might or might not is just a theoretical argument...... even without APS T-90 can take hits from T-80 and still fire..

If you wanna cut it with just smoke grenade and laser warning approach systems .. good for you ... we will see how those would work against unguided RPG-29 salvos fired from a close range.

and once again those systems and APS are two VERY different things

APS has been tested on arjun.

full article in post # 864.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/mbt-arjuns-new-defensive-aid-system.html

 

[Daredevil]

You dont get it ... no tank is totally safe ..... the ATGM's today are just too powerful.... if you have an APS its always a plus point , might or might not is just a theoretical argument...... even without APS T-90 can take hits from T-80 and still fire..

If you wanna cut it with just smoke grenade and laser warning approach systems .. good for you ... we will see how those would work against unguided RPG-29 salvos fired from a close range.

and once again those systems and APS are two VERY different things

Even Arjun will have APS system called LWCS. Also see the ppgj post.

DRDO is developing a Laser Warning Control System (LWCS) in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel to be equipped on the Arjun at regimental level trials with T-90s. The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems. LWCS includes laser warning system, Infra Red jammers and aerosol grenade smokes, and will help reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability. DRDO is also co-developing the and Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Barracuda Camouflaging Limited.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/4403/

Also let us know if APS can stop RPG-29 salvos .

APS or no APS, T-90 will be little safe only because of addition of ERA which is also not fool proof to all kinds of APFSDS.

 

[ppgj]

And do not compare T-90 to T-72 ........its a couple of generations better .......the T-80 is better than T-72 and the T-90 is even better than T-80 , you might want to update your info. i have pasted T-90 and T-80 comparison back in this thread

pakistan's T-80 tank has an uprated engine 1200hp where as our T-90 are 1000hp which itself is in doubt (supposedly only 840hp).

also pakisatan's T-80 have an APU of 18kw, allowing them to operate in silent mode, whereas our T-90's have 1kw APU's!!!

T-80 fires same, is protected similarly like a T-90. so you can decide which is superior between pakistan's T-80 and india's T-90.

even Russia's main battle tank is T-80 based not T-90.

 

[Daredevil]

Regarding armour protection of T-90, there were trails done with ATGMs, RPGs against ERA protected and un protected T-90s & T-80s in 1999. There are not much improvements in armour protection on T-90 from that time.

Here is a conclusion of that trials

RPG-29 proved to be by far the most potent weapon among those used. As powerful as heavy ATGM Kornet, it appeared to assure the frontal penetration of T-80U even for the squad-level firepower. Even though T-90 fared better, it is still not immune to it. Considering sufficient proliferation of this weapon and the fact that this is still a fairly light infantry weapon, it is the most dangerous adversary of modern Russian MBTs, and is a very disturbing development.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html

 

[sayareakd]

Laser warning system and smoke granades is not the same as having an anti projectile systems or an active protection system (APS) the APS fires a projectile to an incomming missle or AT shell which destroyes its guidence system and the incomming projectile although this technology is not seen in any tanks til now as it is still in testing phase and i don't have much faith in this system the arjun does,nt have this system yet nor does abrams

thanks for the great info, but you have forget to mention that T 90S which was imported by IA does not have of APS which you have mentioned.

 

[bengalraider]

Well the Russians seem to be ready with their new behemoth and it's HMBT by all counts; wonder what the IA will have to say about the weight of this baby, also it's supposedly slower than the arjun

Russia may unveil new 'super-tank' in summer 2010

Russia's new main battle tank (MBT), the T-95, could be exhibited for the first time at an arms show in the Urals Region this summer, the developer and future manufacturer of the tank has said.
The development of the new tank dubbed "Item 195" began at the Uralvagonzavod design bureau in the early 1990s. Russia will become the first country in the world to have the 5th-generartion MBT if the military commissions the vehicle.
"The work on the project has been conducted for many years. If the government gives us a 'green light' we will exhibit the tank at the [Russian Expo Arms 2010] arms show in Nizhny Tagil this summer," general director of the Uralvagonzavod plant Oleg Siyenko told RIA Novosti in an exclusive interview.
"I cannot disclose the characteristics of the tank, but I can assure you that we have met all the requirements put forward by the military," he said.
According to unofficial sources, the T-95 will feature better firepower, maneuverability, electronics and armor protection than Russia's latest T-90 MBT or comparable foreign models.
It will weigh about 55 tons and its speed will increase from 30-50 kph to 50-65 kph (19-31 mph to 31-40 mph).
The new tank may be equipped with a 152-mm smoothbore gun capable of firing guided missiles with a range of 6,000-7,000 meters.
In contrast to existing designs, the gun will be located in a remotely-controlled turret to improve 3-men crew survivability.
Meanwhile, the T-90 MBT, developed in the 1990s on the basis of the T-72B tank, will be the backbone of the armored units until 2025, according to the Russian military.
Russia currently produces up to 100 T-90 MBTs annually and plans to have at least 1,500 vehicles in service with the Ground Forces.

MOSCOW, March 26 (RIA Novosti)
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100326/158314386.html

 

[notinlove]

one by one gentlemen one by one .. its going to take me a little time now

 

[sayareakd]

T 90S which IA imported, does not have axillary power unit, nor it has APS. T90S require AC for its crew.

 

[notinlove]

horizon only IMO, should not matter for 8km. Lahat has been tested in india and has been accepted.

I correct myself the range would be around 5 km and not 6 as previously stated . i took the height of arjun as 3.32 instead of 2.32 now considering the formula for distance that can be seen is sqrt(13h) putting the height as 2.32 gives the range as 5.49 km .. now you can safely assume that the targeting system and range finder would be placed atleast slightly below that top height of 2.32 km and you can get the range as just about 5 km

as for T-90 another weakness is -

http://frontierindia.net/five-hundred-arjun-tank-orders-needed-for-project-breakeven

Arjun's storage being separate also gives it an advantage for survivability.

This i agree to .. but one thing that bugs me is ...

the Crew in T-90S tank directly sits over the ammunition making it a death trap for Indian Army personnel in case of being hit and penetrated.

in case of being penetrated , and then the shrapnel or whatever reaching past the cabin and into the ammo dump .. what are the chances of survival of the crew anyways ??? is this just a western propaganda to imply that their tanks are better ??
This is an honest question and please don't drag me into the mud over this ....

can you backup your claim? that the cost of T-90 includes the cost of support vehicles?

The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore,
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

From Mr. Shukla's revered blog
so if you are considering the price as 18 crore then it contains the support vehicles .. if you are taking it as 11 crore then that's fine. mind you he also calculates the price of invar missiles in those 18 crores .

chackojoseph is a member here. he may throw light on this point when he reads up because he wrote that article.

i would not want to wait that long
here are some links
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/era.html
here is a very interesting discussion between me and kuku ..
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions/page49

 

[notinlove]

APS has been tested on arjun.

full article in post # 864.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/mbt-arjuns-new-defensive-aid-system.html

the argument was not about the credibility or APS on which tank... it was about the COST ... that 18 crore figure is after including the 2500 crore allocated for APS.

 

[notinlove]

Even Arjun will have APS system called LWCS. Also see the ppgj post.

LWCS is not an APS lol. and moreover does your LWCS come for free ?? as my argument is about cost.

Also let us know if APS can stop RPG-29 salvos .

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Product...egoryId=272&ProductGroupId=373&ProductId=1448

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist_Active_Protection_System

Btw india has bought the first one ie LEDS 150

APS or no APS, T-90 will be little safe only because of addition of ERA which is also not fool proof to all kinds of APFSDS.

check out links in previous post that i gave in reply to ppgj

 

[notinlove]

pakistan's T-80 tank has an uprated engine 1200hp where as our T-90 are 1000hp which itself is in doubt (supposedly only 840hp).

also pakisatan's T-80 have an APU of 18kw, allowing them to operate in silent mode, whereas our T-90's have 1kw APU's!!!

T-80 fires same, is protected similarly like a T-90. so you can decide which is superior between pakistan's T-80 and india's T-90.

even Russia's main battle tank is T-80 based not T-90.

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html

see the results for yourself and decide which is better protected T-80 or T-90.. and that was back in 1999 .. our T-90 contain the kanchan and also next generation ERA .. they are certainly better.... and i agree they lack the apu..that is one thing that should be rectified.
russia's dint buy t-90 cos their economy dint allow them to

 

[notinlove]

Regarding armour protection of T-90, there were trails done with ATGMs, RPGs against ERA protected and un protected T-90s & T-80s in 1999. There are not much improvements in armour protection on T-90 from that time.

Here is a conclusion of that trials

why leave out the rest of the conclusion ??

ATGLs

* T-90: RPG-29 produced a total of 3 penetrations.
No other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target.
ATGMs

* T-90: No ATGMs could penetrate the ERA-equipped target. One Kornet ATGM penetrated the stripped target.
APFSDS

* T-90: ERA-equipped target could not be penetrated. Furthermore, after firing the crew entered the vehicle, activated it and was able to execute the firing sequence.
Without ERA, one round penetrated.

Moreover dont blame the T-90, blame the russsians for making a weapon as potent as RPG-29 .. which makes even abrams and challenegers and merkavas shit their pants , you can't guarantee it wont penetrate arjun

here are some examples for you....

The Challenger 2 is reputed to be one of the most sophisticated tanks in the world and those used in Iraq by the British Army are built with Dorchester armour, the composition of which is top secret. The tank is also fitted with explosive reactive armour (ERA) at its front that should deflect any weapon fired at its hull.

The MoD has finally confirmed that the tank's armour was breached last August and has said that an investigation was conducted to discover why the ERA appears to have failed. However, the department refused to comment on its findings, citing security reasons.

In the August attack, which occurred during an operation to arrest a leading insurgent in the town of al-Amarah, in southern Iraq, the Challenger was damaged when a Russian-made rocket-propelled grenade, known as an RPG-29, defeated the ERA and penetrated the driver's cabin.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551418/MoD-kept-failure-of-best-tank-quiet.html

There were other threats, as well. In one instance not previously disclosed, an American M1 tank was damaged by an RPG-29, an advanced anti-tank weapon
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/world/middleeast/21sadr.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&hp

Is the RPG-29 to Blame
for Israeli Failures in Lebanon?http://www.bintjbeil.com/articles/2006/en/rpg29.html