Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[rodeo]

What's the latest on "Bharat Power Pack" ?

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Indian Army on Instagram: "#भारतीयसेना, बदलते समय व समीकरणों के साथ स्वयं भी परिवर्तन की ओर गतिशील है। देश की सुरक्षा और राष्ट्र निर्माण के लिए प्रतिबद्धता के साथ, परिवर्तन के पांच स्तंभ देंगे सेना को एक परिवर्तित स्वरूप। समय है प्रगतिशील परिवर्तन का। #ArmyDay 2023 #IndianArmy #YearOfTransformation"

160K likes, 524 comments - indianarmy.adgpi on January 2, 2023: "#भारतीयसेना, बदलते समय व समीकरणों के साथ स्वयं भी परिवर्तन की ओर गतिशील है। देश की सुरक्षा और राष्ट्र निर्माण के लिए प्रतिबद्धता के साथ, परिवर्तन के पांच स्तंभ देंगे सेना को एक परिवर्तित स्वरूप। समय है प्रगतिशील परिवर्तन का।...

www.instagram.com

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian Army on Instagram: "#भारतीयसेना, बदलते समय व समीकरणों के साथ स्वयं भी परिवर्तन की ओर गतिशील है। देश की सुरक्षा और राष्ट्र निर्माण के लिए प्रतिबद्धता के साथ, परिवर्तन के पांच स्तंभ देंगे सेना को एक परिवर्तित स्वरूप। समय है प्रगतिशील परिवर्तन का। #ArmyDay 2023 #IndianArmy #YearOfTransformation"

160K likes, 524 comments - indianarmy.adgpi on January 2, 2023: "#भारतीयसेना, बदलते समय व समीकरणों के साथ स्वयं भी परिवर्तन की ओर गतिशील है। देश की सुरक्षा और राष्ट्र निर्माण के लिए प्रतिबद्धता के साथ, परिवर्तन के पांच स्तंभ देंगे सेना को एक परिवर्तित स्वरूप। समय है प्रगतिशील परिवर्तन का।...

www.instagram.com

So full of cr@p. They show the new stuff they’ve ordered in a handful of numbers (or not at all like FICV, ATAGS)
Sig-716
K9
Dhanush-45
Arjun
LCH etc etc


whilst their backbone continues to be soviet era junk like the BMP, T72/90, Grad etc.

as this is in the SF thread- also proudly showing off their ‘SF’ which looks barely better equipped than a state police force SWAT team at this point.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

So full of cr@p. They show the new stuff they’ve ordered in a handful of numbers (or not at all like FICV, ATAGS)
Sig-716
K9
Dhanush-45
Arjun
LCH etc etc


whilst their backbone continues to be soviet era junk like the BMP, T72/90, Grad etc.

as this is in the SF thread- also proudly showing off their ‘SF’ which looks barely better equipped than a state police force SWAT team at this point.

Go to comments and read...

World best Indian Army
Indian Army Bast forz
My life Indian Aarmy
I join Indian Army

Etc.

These are the people we find here also

 

[Dom the Dumb]

So full of cr@p. They show the new stuff they’ve ordered in a handful of numbers (or not at all like FICV, ATAGS)
Sig-716
K9
Dhanush-45
Arjun
LCH etc etc


whilst their backbone continues to be soviet era junk like the BMP, T72/90, Grad etc.

as this is in the SF thread- also proudly showing off their ‘SF’ which looks barely better equipped than a state police force SWAT team at this point.

Utterly and completely wrong on "Soviet era junk like BMP and T-72/90". Don't believe what you read on twitter.

The BMP is exactly equal in capability, survivability, armour and firepower to the brilliant M2 Bradley. The T-72/90 being crap bullshit is just propaganda. The Turks lost Leo 2s to towelheads with 105mm RCLs, the Egyptians lost M1A2 Abrams to the same fucks. In fact, here and here is an M1 Abrams commander and a retired Austrian mechanised infantryman addressing exactly these myths propagated by Ukraine's brilliant information war.

As a matter of fact, the bulk of Ukraine's armoured forces (those responsible for destroying the majority of enemy armour) are T-80s or variants thereof, which are in every way inferior to most T-90 variants and certainly completely inferior to the T-72B3, T-90M, T-90S Bhishma, T-72 CIA. The Russian T-90s have seen staggering success, as have fucking T-60s and T-64s. T-72s have been blown apart earlier in the war but that was operator issue, as they had no infantry cover and were exposed to enemy fire.

Also ANY MODERN ATGM WILL DESTROY ANY MODERN TANK. Full stop, the end. So citing ATGMs as killing tanks so the tank is crap is like saying bullets kill humans so humans are bad designs.

Citing battles like 73 Easting is also pointless. The Iraqi T-72s had not been modernised past the original T-72M. 73 Easting in which Chally 2s and Abrams destroyed essentially repainted T-72M1s is akin to a Centurion VII destroying a Panzer II.

If we were to compare our stock of tanks to the enemy, we are MORE than okay. The T-90S Bhishma is on par with the Type-99A, which is the most advanced tank India will face. The T-72s are on par with everything else we might face. In fact the "fearsome" Type-97 and Type-99 are essentially just rejigged T-72s with a new name. Only the Type-99A is a serious step up.

Pakistan's armour is essentially not a threat. Their most significant numbers come from upgraded T-55s with only the T-84 and VT-4 providing a serious danger, but again, that danger is also limited, for reasons above explained.

Hell, leave aside the VT-4, Type-99 and Type-99A and even the shitty Arjun is good enough for what our adversaries have

 

[Blademaster]

Hell, leave aside the VT-4, Type-99 and Type-99A and even the shitty Arjun is good enough for what our adversaries have

Why do you think the Arjun is shitty?

 

[Kumaoni]

Utterly and completely wrong on "Soviet era junk like BMP and T-72/90". Don't believe what you read on twitter.

The BMP is exactly equal in capability, survivability, armour and firepower to the brilliant M2 Bradley. The T-72/90 being crap bullshit is just propaganda. The Turks lost Leo 2s to towelheads with 105mm RCLs, the Egyptians lost M1A2 Abrams to the same fucks. In fact, here and here is an M1 Abrams commander and a retired Austrian mechanised infantryman addressing exactly these myths propagated by Ukraine's brilliant information war.

As a matter of fact, the bulk of Ukraine's armoured forces (those responsible for destroying the majority of enemy armour) are T-80s or variants thereof, which are in every way inferior to most T-90 variants and certainly completely inferior to the T-72B3, T-90M, T-90S Bhishma, T-72 CIA. The Russian T-90s have seen staggering success, as have fucking T-60s and T-64s. T-72s have been blown apart earlier in the war but that was operator issue, as they had no infantry cover and were exposed to enemy fire.

Also ANY MODERN ATGM WILL DESTROY ANY MODERN TANK. Full stop, the end. So citing ATGMs as killing tanks so the tank is crap is like saying bullets kill humans so humans are bad designs.

Citing battles like 73 Easting is also pointless. The Iraqi T-72s had not been modernised past the original T-72M. 73 Easting in which Chally 2s and Abrams destroyed essentially repainted T-72M1s is akin to a Centurion VII destroying a Panzer II.

If we were to compare our stock of tanks to the enemy, we are MORE than okay. The T-90S Bhishma is on par with the Type-99A, which is the most advanced tank India will face. The T-72s are on par with everything else we might face. In fact the "fearsome" Type-97 and Type-99 are essentially just rejigged T-72s with a new name. Only the Type-99A is a serious step up.

Pakistan's armour is essentially not a threat. Their most significant numbers come from upgraded T-55s with only the T-84 and VT-4 providing a serious danger, but again, that danger is also limited, for reasons above explained.

Hell, leave aside the VT-4, Type-99 and Type-99A and even the shitty Arjun is good enough for what our adversaries have

Wonderful post.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Why do you think the Arjun is shitty?

oh not this again

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Why do you think the Arjun is shitty?

I could write a book about it. Before I answer, are you an Arjun apologist?

 

[Blademaster]

I could write a book about it. Before I answer, are you an Arjun apologist?

No just trying to see if we should continue to support Arjun or move on to a new tank program.

 

[Dom the Dumb]

No just trying to see if we should continue to support Arjun or move on to a new tank program.

Long story short, we should move on. Arjun was good for a first attempt but it is not fit for service

 

[Love Charger]

Long story short, we should move on. Arjun was good for a first attempt but it is not fit for service

But it's in service

 

[Blademaster]

Long story short, we should move on. Arjun was good for a first attempt but it is not fit for service

Can you tell me the salient points of why we should move on and it was not fit for service?

 

[Dom the Dumb]

But it's in service

In limited numbers. Only the 45th and 90th Armoured Regiments are equipped with it. I know officers in those regiments. The 45th and 90th are almost NEVER deployed for exercises, they're never forward deployed or deployed to RAPID divisions, they're never deployed to Cold Start units (back when Cold Start was still doctrine). Life in those regiments is so boring they have the highest rate of officers requesting transfers or switching streams. A 45th AR officer who was my father's (who was in 76th AR) coursemate in NDA actually joined the AAC because 45 was so boring

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Can you tell me the salient points of why we should move on and it was not fit for service?

Subpar gun with subpar ammunition. The gun, since it is rifled, cannot cope with the high chamber pressures required for high performance rounds, as it will destroy the rifling on the gun. The rifling on the gun also immensely reduces the service life of a single barrel which would heavily tax logistics.

The mobility, though good, is hampered by an engine which constantly breaks down and needs a lot of FOLs to keep running. Again, a logistical tax.

While the armour itself is good, the layout is puzzling and doesn't provide enough coverage to ensure that the crew can survive first hit. The Mk1A resolves this.

 

[abingdonboy]

In limited numbers. Only the 45th and 90th Armoured Regiments are equipped with it. I know officers in those regiments. The 45th and 90th are almost NEVER deployed for exercises, they're never forward deployed or deployed to RAPID divisions, they're never deployed to Cold Start units (back when Cold Start was still doctrine). Life in those regiments is so boring they have the highest rate of officers requesting transfers or switching streams. A 45th AR officer who was my father's (who was in 76th AR) coursemate in NDA actually joined the AAC because 45 was so boring

It’s a bit ridiculous to use this against the Arjun and becomes quite circular logic pretty quickly

Arjun is bad because it’s present in such small numbers, it’s present in such small numbers because it is bad

This sort of thing has been used against Arjun for years- DRDO needed a minimum order of 500 according to them to localise they spares and engine for the Arjun, by ordering only 2 regiments (~120) the IA made a white elephant of the Arjun from the start.


by the IA’s own trails the Arjun was superior to the T90 by pretty much every metric or they had purposefully tested the Arjun to a higher standard than they every tested the T90

 

[Kumaoni]

Arjun vs T90 debate once again. Oh boy Oh boy.

Anyway, can someone like me some literature on any operarions done by the paras in the 90s

 

[abingdonboy]

Utterly and completely wrong on "Soviet era junk like BMP and T-72/90". Don't believe what you read on twitter.

The BMP is exactly equal in capability, survivability, armour and firepower to the brilliant M2 Bradley. The T-72/90 being crap bullshit is just propaganda. The Turks lost Leo 2s to towelheads with 105mm RCLs, the Egyptians lost M1A2 Abrams to the same fucks. In fact, here and here is an M1 Abrams commander and a retired Austrian mechanised infantryman addressing exactly these myths propagated by Ukraine's brilliant information war.

As a matter of fact, the bulk of Ukraine's armoured forces (those responsible for destroying the majority of enemy armour) are T-80s or variants thereof, which are in every way inferior to most T-90 variants and certainly completely inferior to the T-72B3, T-90M, T-90S Bhishma, T-72 CIA. The Russian T-90s have seen staggering success, as have fucking T-60s and T-64s. T-72s have been blown apart earlier in the war but that was operator issue, as they had no infantry cover and were exposed to enemy fire.

Also ANY MODERN ATGM WILL DESTROY ANY MODERN TANK. Full stop, the end. So citing ATGMs as killing tanks so the tank is crap is like saying bullets kill humans so humans are bad designs.

Citing battles like 73 Easting is also pointless. The Iraqi T-72s had not been modernised past the original T-72M. 73 Easting in which Chally 2s and Abrams destroyed essentially repainted T-72M1s is akin to a Centurion VII destroying a Panzer II.

If we were to compare our stock of tanks to the enemy, we are MORE than okay. The T-90S Bhishma is on par with the Type-99A, which is the most advanced tank India will face. The T-72s are on par with everything else we might face. In fact the "fearsome" Type-97 and Type-99 are essentially just rejigged T-72s with a new name. Only the Type-99A is a serious step up.

Pakistan's armour is essentially not a threat. Their most significant numbers come from upgraded T-55s with only the T-84 and VT-4 providing a serious danger, but again, that danger is also limited, for reasons above explained.

Hell, leave aside the VT-4, Type-99 and Type-99A and even the shitty Arjun is good enough for what our adversaries have

Welp the T-72/90 are being chewed up pretty well in Ukraine currently as they were in Syria. Yes tactics play a big part in this as Russia has pushed tanks into urban settings with no dismounted infantry cover but the T72/90s have highlighted their tendency to blow their turrets from even relatively
Minor Hits as their autoloaders cook off their rounds.

most heavy western tanks have manual loaders with barriers to keep their rounds separated from the crew compartment and blow off panels in the housing- the Arjun has this too.

and why compare the Bradley to the BMP-2? Both have similar performance (although the BMP-2’s armour protection is even more lacking especially the sides and rear). Today there are plenty of far superior IFV to compare The BMP-2 to highlight how outdated it is like the K21 and Puma. Of course I feel the IA is making the same mistake with FICV by insisting on sub 25 ton weight

 

[Love Charger]

Subpar gun with subpar ammunition. The gun, since it is rifled, cannot cope with the high chamber pressures required for high performance rounds, as it will destroy the rifling on the gun. The rifling on the gun also immensely reduces the service life of a single barrel which would heavily tax logistics.

The mobility, though good, is hampered by an engine which constantly breaks down and needs a lot of FOLs to keep running. Again, a logistical tax.

While the armour itself is good, the layout is puzzling and doesn't provide enough coverage to ensure that the crew can survive first hit. The Mk1A resolves this.

Sirji, tell me one thing
Do the afsars suggest anything better than a Rifled 120 mm gun ?
Do they have opinions on these tech specs?
Like they must be wanting a rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun , don't they ?

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Welp the T-72/90 are being chewed up pretty well in Ukraine currently as they were in Syria. Yes tactics play a big part in this as Russia has pushed tanks into urban settings with no dismounted infantry cover but the T72/90s have highlighted their tendency to blow their turrets from even relatively
Minor Hits as their autoloaders cook off their rounds.

most heavy western tanks have manual loaders with barriers to keep their rounds separated from the crew compartment and blow off panels in the housing- the Arjun has this too.

and why compare the Bradley to the BMP-2? Both have similar performance (although the BMP-2’s armour protection is even more lacking especially the sides and rear). Today there are plenty of far superior IFV to compare The BMP-2 to highlight how outdated it is like the K21 and Puma. Of course I feel the IA is making the same mistake with FICV by insisting on sub 25 ton weight

Neither the K21 nor the Puma are anything unique. The K21 is just a reskinned Bradley and if anything, the K21 has worse survivability as compared to both the BMP and M2. The Puma, while likely having better survivability, is just as well armed as both the M2 and the BMP. If we really want to talk about a step-up in IFV design, we should talk about the Stryker. But, again, the only advantage the Stryker has is modularity, with armour and survivability being the same.

Also the Arjun doesn't have blow-out panels, it has canisterised storage - not nearly as effective. Furthermore, Russian tanks cannot change their design from a carousel based autoloader to a human loader. The 125mm rounds are so large and so powerful they need multiple steps in the loading process, something that would tire a human loader FAR too quickly in combat situations.

Furthermore, while the carousel loader is a distinct disadvantage in terms of survivability, it has been compensated for with much heavier armour and APS. At any rate, whether the ammo is hit or not, no tank crew, 99% of the time, will remain in a tank that has been penetrated. There are multiple videos, like here, of Russian tanks surviving direct hits by ATGMs.

Once again, the overwhelming combat losses come down to bad use, bad training and bad doctrine. Same reason why the Turks and Egyptians lost world class tanks in the ME