Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Sachinananda]

This is outdated information. The Bhishma program itself is a massive upgrade. For first delivery in 2008, this would have been true. But since 2016, every T-72 and T-90 has been upgraded with new LRF, a BEL MAWS, the T-72s have gotten Polish sights (night and thermal), the T-90s were equipped with BEL thermal and night sights from 2016 and as of Feb 2022, they are being equipped with upgraded sights by BEL and MKU. They've also been equipped with soft-kill APS (MAWS with automated smoke) and a new LWS. All this information is available with a quick Google.

Contrastingly, the Arjun hasn't received the upgraded cooled night sights, its FCS hasn't been upgraded since it was fitted in the 90s and it just cannot match the protection levels of the T-90 with ERA or the armour penetration of the HVAPDS Mk.I and Mk.II. Though the Arjun's "PCB" does beat the 3BM42, which is what it was trialed against, the 3BM42 only does 340mm at 2km against the PCB's 400

What t-90 have aps ??

 

[Tridev123]

Utterly and completely wrong on "Soviet era junk like BMP and T-72/90". Don't believe what you read on twitter.

The BMP is exactly equal in capability, survivability, armour and firepower to the brilliant M2 Bradley. The T-72/90 being crap bullshit is just propaganda. The Turks lost Leo 2s to towelheads with 105mm RCLs, the Egyptians lost M1A2 Abrams to the same fucks. In fact, here and here is an M1 Abrams commander and a retired Austrian mechanised infantryman addressing exactly these myths propagated by Ukraine's brilliant information war.

As a matter of fact, the bulk of Ukraine's armoured forces (those responsible for destroying the majority of enemy armour) are T-80s or variants thereof, which are in every way inferior to most T-90 variants and certainly completely inferior to the T-72B3, T-90M, T-90S Bhishma, T-72 CIA. The Russian T-90s have seen staggering success, as have fucking T-60s and T-64s. T-72s have been blown apart earlier in the war but that was operator issue, as they had no infantry cover and were exposed to enemy fire.

Also ANY MODERN ATGM WILL DESTROY ANY MODERN TANK. Full stop, the end. So citing ATGMs as killing tanks so the tank is crap is like saying bullets kill humans so humans are bad designs.

Citing battles like 73 Easting is also pointless. The Iraqi T-72s had not been modernised past the original T-72M. 73 Easting in which Chally 2s and Abrams destroyed essentially repainted T-72M1s is akin to a Centurion VII destroying a Panzer II.

If we were to compare our stock of tanks to the enemy, we are MORE than okay. The T-90S Bhishma is on par with the Type-99A, which is the most advanced tank India will face. The T-72s are on par with everything else we might face. In fact the "fearsome" Type-97 and Type-99 are essentially just rejigged T-72s with a new name. Only the Type-99A is a serious step up.

Pakistan's armour is essentially not a threat. Their most significant numbers come from upgraded T-55s with only the T-84 and VT-4 providing a serious danger, but again, that danger is also limited, for reasons above explained.

Hell, leave aside the VT-4, Type-99 and Type-99A and even the shitty Arjun is good enough for what our adversaries have

I won't go into the technical parameters comparison debate.
I would like to focus on the ideological issue.

Firstly even if the Arjun mk1 is sub par(assuming) using terms such as 'shitty' for an indigenous product is highly offensive.
I don't question your patriotism but some people might want to know whether you at least support indigenous efforts or are you simply an broker for Russian arms.

To be fair, I don't support use of adjectives like junk for Soviet/Russian arms equipment. Some members do display signs of bias in condemning all Soviet/Russian arms as garbage.

Not true at all. It was the same supposedly obsolete Soviet/Russian arms which ensured our independence and security. At a time when the West was sharing a bed with Pakistan. The West denied many requests coming from India for modern arms . That is history.

Ok. It is true that Soviet/Russian weapons helped India preserve her territorial integrity and autonomy. In the decades following independence.

Now there is an intense information warfare going on between the West led by the US and the Russian bloc. Both trying to paint the others weapons as bad and defective.

While it is true that the West has an lead over Russia in areas like semiconductors and electronics, the truth is that the balance is not totally one sided. The Russians do lead the West in some areas of technology.

If all Soviet/Russian weapons were really junk then do you think that the US military and the NATO were utter fools to fear the Soviets/Russians and reach Arms Control Agreements with them.

What was there to fear if all Russian ICBM's/IRBM's/SLBM's were faulty and could never reach the US mainland or Western Europe.

So the truth is somewhere between the two extreme views. Soviet/Russian weapons do work. Maybe some American weapons have an technological lead over equivalent Russian weapons. But the lead is not so much as to allow the Americans to arrogantly disregard the threat from Russian weapons.

Now coming to the practice of pro Russian lobbies in India rubbishing all Indian indigenous weapons. Not acceptable.Probably they do so because many indigenous weapons have substantial Western system/sub systems/components.

Most Indians will support fully indigenous weapons where even the components are Indian made. We don't want American/European or Russian components in our weapons.

That remains an long term objective.

Now coming to the Arjun tank, yes the engine, transmission system is German. And many other systems are imported. But this is because India is still in the learning phase and slowly but steadily becoming technologically self sufficient. It will take time. So until then we need to import systems/sub systems from other countries.

Now if Russia has an objection to India's use of Western components in its indigenous weapons, what prevented them from offering to cooperate with Indian PSU's and helping India develop truly indigenous weapon systems. By offering know how and know why.

Why do the Russians want India to be perpetually dependent on Russian imports.
If there are many defects in the design of the Arjun, why Russian scientists and designers did not collaborate with DRDO/CVRDE to offer their expertise.

Why didn't the Russians jointly develop with India an high power tank engine to power the Arjun. An 1000hp to 1500hp engine with weight optimisation. Or offer the technology of the 125mm smooth bore main tank gun to India.

Russia has to realise that the era of India unquestioningly accepting Russian arms without an genuine transfer of technology including design expertise is over. Today's India seeks to become fully technologically independent and would welcome anybody helping us to achieve the objective.

This is an pro India effort and not an attempt to shut out Russian arms. The Bhramos missile is an example of what could be achieved if Russia genuinely helps India in cutting edge technologies.

Anybody attempting to besmirch Indian indigenous weapons by using terms as 'shitty' is only undermining our efforts to reduce and finally end imports. Certainly not an constructive role. Almost an anti Indian stance.

If there are genuine defects in some indigenous weapons, why not offer constructive suggestions to remove the drawbacks. If you are an engineer or scientist, why not offer an technical solution to problems. If not in a position to help technically, please temper your language and criticism. Simply criticising using strong adjectives without offering any solutions is unproductive.

Bye, Bro.

 

[abingdonboy]

Correction. Thanks to DRDO and their production partners most T-72/T-90 should have thermal imaging for their drivers and fire control system. The T90s will also get thermal imaging equipped commanders sights (developed for Arjun MK1A).

These contracts were issued in the last 7 years after scathing CAG reports citing 50% of the IA’s armoured fleet were ‘night blind’

as for IA BMP-2s they are largely unmodified since the 1980s

@Indx TechStyle @ezsasa probably best to move this discussion to the appropriate thread

@Dom the Dumb

 

[abingdonboy]

This is outdated information. The Bhishma program itself is a massive upgrade. For first delivery in 2008, this would have been true. But since 2016, every T-72 and T-90 has been upgraded with new LRF, a BEL MAWS, the T-72s have gotten Polish sights (night and thermal), the T-90s were equipped with BEL thermal and night sights from 2016 and as of Feb 2022, they are being equipped with upgraded sights by BEL and MKU. They've also been equipped with soft-kill APS (MAWS with automated smoke) and a new LWS. All this information is available with a quick Google.

Contrastingly, the Arjun hasn't received the upgraded cooled night sights, its FCS hasn't been upgraded since it was fitted in the 90s and it just cannot match the protection levels of the T-90 with ERA or the armour penetration of the HVAPDS Mk.I and Mk.II. Though the Arjun's "PCB" does beat the 3BM42, which is what it was trialed against, the 3BM42 only does 340mm at 2km against the PCB's 400

I’ve looked closer into the post 2014 updates to the T72/90 fleet and they have made progress no doubt but the weaknesses of the T series are built into the design and can’t be modernised away. The carousel loader will always be the achilleas heel of the entire design no matter how much additional protection they try to give it. Sure any MBT can be hit/penetrated but you won’t see many other than this family launching their turrets 30ft in the air and evaporating everyone inside. The Abrams, challenger and Leo/Arjun at least give their crews a fighting chance to escape. The Russians themselves designed this out of the T14 for a reason so I find it hard to see any logic in ignoring this flaw


On the last point, the Arjun has been modernised far beyond the T90 with the MK1A and much of these features found there way onto the T72/90. The soft kill APS and commander’s panoramic TI sights are directly lifted from the Arjun MK1A

 

[abingdonboy]

I won't go into the technical parameters comparison debate.
I would like to focus on the ideological issue.

Firstly even if the Arjun mk1 is sub par(assuming) using terms such as 'shitty' for an indigenous product is highly offensive.
I don't question your patriotism but some people might want to know whether you at least support indigenous efforts or are you simply an broker for Russian arms.

To be fair, I don't support use of adjectives like junk for Soviet/Russian arms equipment. Some members do display signs of bias in condemning all Soviet/Russian arms as garbage.

Not true at all. It was the same supposedly obsolete Soviet/Russian arms which ensured our independence and security. At a time when the West was sharing a bed with Pakistan. The West denied many requests coming from India for modern arms . That is history.

Ok. It is true that Soviet/Russian weapons helped India preserve her territorial integrity and autonomy. In the decades following independence.

Now there is an intense information warfare going on between the West led by the US and the Russian bloc. Both trying to paint the others weapons as bad and defective.

While it is true that the West has an lead over Russia in areas like semiconductors and electronics, the truth is that the balance is not totally one sided. The Russians do lead the West in some areas of technology.

If all Soviet/Russian weapons were really junk then do you think that the US military and the NATO were utter fools to fear the Soviets/Russians and reach Arms Control Agreements with them.

What was there to fear if all Russian ICBM's/IRBM's/SLBM's were faulty and could never reach the US mainland or Western Europe.

So the truth is somewhere between the two extreme views. Soviet/Russian weapons do work. Maybe some American weapons have an technological lead over equivalent Russian weapons. But the lead is not so much as to allow the Americans to arrogantly disregard the threat from Russian weapons.

Now coming to the practice of pro Russian lobbies in India rubbishing all Indian indigenous weapons. Not acceptable.Probably they do so because many indigenous weapons have substantial Western system/sub systems/components.

Most Indians will support fully indigenous weapons where even the components are Indian made. We don't want American/European or Russian components in our weapons.

That remains an long term objective.

Now coming to the Arjun tank, yes the engine, transmission system is German. And many other systems are imported. But this is because India is still in the learning phase and slowly but steadily becoming technologically self sufficient. It will take time. So until then we need to import systems/sub systems from other countries.

Now if Russia has an objection to India's use of Western components in its indigenous weapons, what prevented them from offering to cooperate with Indian PSU's and helping India develop truly indigenous weapon systems. By offering know how and know why.

Why do the Russians want India to be perpetually dependent on Russian imports.
If there are many defects in the design of the Arjun, why Russian scientists and designers did not collaborate with DRDO/CVRDE to offer their expertise.

Why didn't the Russians jointly develop with India an high power tank engine to power the Arjun. An 1000hp to 1500hp engine with weight optimisation. Or offer the technology of the 125mm smooth bore main tank gun to India.

Russia has to realise that the era of India unquestioningly accepting Russian arms without an genuine transfer of technology including design expertise is over. Today's India seeks to become fully technologically independent and would welcome anybody helping us to achieve the objective.

This is an pro India effort and not an attempt to shut out Russian arms. The Bhramos missile is an example of what could be achieved if Russia genuinely helps India in cutting edge technologies.

Anybody attempting to besmirch Indian indigenous weapons by using terms as 'shitty' is only undermining our efforts to reduce and finally end imports. Certainly not an constructive role. Almost an anti Indian stance.

If there are genuine defects in some indigenous weapons, why not offer constructive suggestions to remove the drawbacks. If you are an engineer or scientist, why not offer an technical solution to problems. If not in a position to help technically, please temper your language and criticism. Simply criticising using strong adjectives without offering any solutions is unproductive.

Bye, Bro.

Much of Russia’s power and by extension India’s Cold War era weapons were untested, when they were used in actual combat settings in many cases the performances were underwhelming and the Russians were exposed as a bit of a paper tiger. There’s quite a bit of revisionist historical analysis going on now from Western analysts who are declaring the entire Cold War threat from the USSR was never the threat it was made out to be based on modern Russian performances

That said, Russia has a habit of trying to fight wars cheaply and not follow their own doctrines, I hope the Indian military has not been infected with this same half measure mindset and will actually employ combined arms warfare how it is meant to be used.

 

[abingdonboy]

What t-90 have aps ??

Soft kill is technically APS

Another tech Arjun had first that found its way to the Indian T72/90 fleet

 

[Sachinananda]

Soft kill is technically APS

Another tech Arjun had first that found its way to the Indian T72/90 fleet

I don't have info of soft kill aps in t-72/90 fleet
U have any pic

 

[abingdonboy]

I don't have info of soft kill aps in t-72/90 fleet
U have any pic

For the Arjun MK1A they have LWCS and smoke launchers that can swivel, in automatic mode these can detect LRF/IR painting and independently launch the CM

I’m yet to see any evidence of these LWCS on the T72/90 fleet though so @Dom the Dumb must know something I don’t

 

[Sachinananda]

For the Arjun MK1A they have LWCS and smoke launchers that can swivel, in automatic mode these can detect LRF/IR painting and independently launch the CM

I’m yet to see any evidence of these LWCS on the T72/90 fleet though so @Dom the Dumb must know something I don’t

View attachment 188253

View attachment 188254

View attachment 188255

As far as I know t-72/90 don't have ant aps be it hard kill or soft kill

 

[no smoking]

Much of Russia’s power and by extension India’s Cold War era weapons were untested, when they were used in actual combat settings in many cases the performances were underwhelming and the Russians were exposed as a bit of a paper tiger.

Well, the US or Western weapons didn't perform good when they were used by those Africans, Latin Americans or Arabians. The fact is: no matter what weapon you use, when your army is undertrained, underfunded and poorly organised, the weapons simply can't match your expectation.

There’s quite a bit of revisionist historical analysis going on now from Western analysts who are declaring the entire Cold War threat from the USSR was never the threat it was made out to be based on modern Russian performances

Well, did these analysts went back to Western countries to check if western armies were powerful as they declared during cold war.
Look, any armed force always has various problems which make this force weaker than being showed on the paper.

That said, Russia has a habit of trying to fight wars cheaply and not follow their own doctrines, I hope the Indian military has not been infected with this same half measure mindset and will actually employ combined arms warfare how it is meant to be used.

Really? what is Russia's doctrine?

 

[Dom the Dumb]

I’ve looked closer into the post 2014 updates to the T72/90 fleet and they have made progress no doubt but the weaknesses of the T series are built into the design and can’t be modernised away. The carousel loader will always be the achilleas heel of the entire design no matter how much additional protection they try to give it. Sure any MBT can be hit/penetrated but you won’t see many other than this family launching their turrets 30ft in the air and evaporating everyone inside. The Abrams, challenger and Leo/Arjun at least give their crews a fighting chance to escape. The Russians themselves designed this out of the T14 for a reason so I find it hard to see any logic in ignoring this flaw


On the last point, the Arjun has been modernised far beyond the T90 with the MK1A and much of these features found there way onto the T72/90. The soft kill APS and commander’s panoramic TI sights are directly lifted from the Arjun MK1A

Okay I really meant it when I said I wasn't going to do T-90 vs Arjun. Really. It's a headache. Let's just agree to disagree

 

[Dom the Dumb]

I won't go into the technical parameters comparison debate.
I would like to focus on the ideological issue.

Firstly even if the Arjun mk1 is sub par(assuming) using terms such as 'shitty' for an indigenous product is highly offensive.
I don't question your patriotism but some people might want to know whether you at least support indigenous efforts or are you simply an broker for Russian arms.

To be fair, I don't support use of adjectives like junk for Soviet/Russian arms equipment. Some members do display signs of bias in condemning all Soviet/Russian arms as garbage.

Not true at all. It was the same supposedly obsolete Soviet/Russian arms which ensured our independence and security. At a time when the West was sharing a bed with Pakistan. The West denied many requests coming from India for modern arms . That is history.

Ok. It is true that Soviet/Russian weapons helped India preserve her territorial integrity and autonomy. In the decades following independence.

Now there is an intense information warfare going on between the West led by the US and the Russian bloc. Both trying to paint the others weapons as bad and defective.

While it is true that the West has an lead over Russia in areas like semiconductors and electronics, the truth is that the balance is not totally one sided. The Russians do lead the West in some areas of technology.

If all Soviet/Russian weapons were really junk then do you think that the US military and the NATO were utter fools to fear the Soviets/Russians and reach Arms Control Agreements with them.

What was there to fear if all Russian ICBM's/IRBM's/SLBM's were faulty and could never reach the US mainland or Western Europe.

So the truth is somewhere between the two extreme views. Soviet/Russian weapons do work. Maybe some American weapons have an technological lead over equivalent Russian weapons. But the lead is not so much as to allow the Americans to arrogantly disregard the threat from Russian weapons.

Now coming to the practice of pro Russian lobbies in India rubbishing all Indian indigenous weapons. Not acceptable.Probably they do so because many indigenous weapons have substantial Western system/sub systems/components.

Most Indians will support fully indigenous weapons where even the components are Indian made. We don't want American/European or Russian components in our weapons.

That remains an long term objective.

Now coming to the Arjun tank, yes the engine, transmission system is German. And many other systems are imported. But this is because India is still in the learning phase and slowly but steadily becoming technologically self sufficient. It will take time. So until then we need to import systems/sub systems from other countries.

Now if Russia has an objection to India's use of Western components in its indigenous weapons, what prevented them from offering to cooperate with Indian PSU's and helping India develop truly indigenous weapon systems. By offering know how and know why.

Why do the Russians want India to be perpetually dependent on Russian imports.
If there are many defects in the design of the Arjun, why Russian scientists and designers did not collaborate with DRDO/CVRDE to offer their expertise.

Why didn't the Russians jointly develop with India an high power tank engine to power the Arjun. An 1000hp to 1500hp engine with weight optimisation. Or offer the technology of the 125mm smooth bore main tank gun to India.

Russia has to realise that the era of India unquestioningly accepting Russian arms without an genuine transfer of technology including design expertise is over. Today's India seeks to become fully technologically independent and would welcome anybody helping us to achieve the objective.

This is an pro India effort and not an attempt to shut out Russian arms. The Bhramos missile is an example of what could be achieved if Russia genuinely helps India in cutting edge technologies.

Anybody attempting to besmirch Indian indigenous weapons by using terms as 'shitty' is only undermining our efforts to reduce and finally end imports. Certainly not an constructive role. Almost an anti Indian stance.

If there are genuine defects in some indigenous weapons, why not offer constructive suggestions to remove the drawbacks. If you are an engineer or scientist, why not offer an technical solution to problems. If not in a position to help technically, please temper your language and criticism. Simply criticising using strong adjectives without offering any solutions is unproductive.

Bye, Bro.

I think people like you are forgetting that all T-90s, apart from the first batch ordered from Russia, are made in India from scratch. The Bhishma is an entirely Indian made tank and upgrade package. The Bhishma is essentially equivalent - if we compare the programs - to the Vijayanta MBT, which was a Vickers Mk.II MBT built and modified in India. Furthermore, every upgrade made to the T-90 has been Indian, especially since 2014 and now even more so after 2022. The production facility is streamlined, we have the expertise and we have the kit.

Also all your other points are either grasping at straws or essentially moot since if I were to suggest any improvements, none of us actually have any ability to put them into action.

 

[Dom the Dumb]

@Dom the Dumb

Okay, sorry. Didn't see that

 

[Dom the Dumb]

For the Arjun MK1A they have LWCS and smoke launchers that can swivel, in automatic mode these can detect LRF/IR painting and independently launch the CM

I’m yet to see any evidence of these LWCS on the T72/90 fleet though so @Dom the Dumb must know something I don’t

View attachment 188253

View attachment 188254

View attachment 188255

While the T-90s don't have swivel launchers for their grenades, they have gotten new IR smoke grenades and have been fitted with APS+MAWS since 2016. I am not aware of this upgrade being applied to T-72s, however since HVF's T-90s are replacing T-72s in multiple regiments, I'm not surprised

 

[Tridev123]

I think people like you are forgetting that all T-90s, apart from the first batch ordered from Russia, are made in India from scratch. The Bhishma is an entirely Indian made tank and upgrade package. The Bhishma is essentially equivalent - if we compare the programs - to the Vijayanta MBT, which was a Vickers Mk.II MBT built and modified in India. Furthermore, every upgrade made to the T-90 has been Indian, especially since 2014 and now even more so after 2022. The production facility is streamlined, we have the expertise and we have the kit.

Also all your other points are either grasping at straws or essentially moot since if I were to suggest any improvements, none of us actually have any ability to put them into action.

I am amazed at your value system and how you view India's future.
As per you, manufacturing the T90 or its variants is as good as designing, developing and manufacturing an Indian indigenous tank.
Has India mortgaged its future to Russia.

Russia was and is still a friend of India but to suggest that India remains satisfied by serving as an client state for Russia is really the height of servitude.

India will make friends with like minded countries who believe in a multi polar world but is too ancient an civilization and too big population wise and even area wise to become an concubine of any other country.

There is no need for India to agree 100% with Russia on all matters. We may have an different approach to certain defence issues.

I believe that one of the objectives of our attempt to build an indigenous tank was to combine the best design aspects of both Soviet/Russian and Western tanks.

To put it bluntly, the Russian T90+ cannot in any sense be considered as an fully Indian tank. If India(very unlikely) buys the American Abrams tank and manufactures it under licence, it too cannot be considered an Indian designed tank.

My other pertinent point was that Russia never tried to help India in its Arjun tank programme, thus forcing us to turn to the Europeans for technical assistance.

There are suspicions amongst some Indians that Russia mainly sees India as a cash cow. An large captive market for Russian arms. It is not in their interest to help India develop its own MBT because then India would stop buying Russian tanks.

Your almost fan boyish worship of Russia is counterproductive for long term Russian interests in India as it may offend many patriotic Indians.

And as you yourself have said that any suggestions made by you to improve the Arjun tank will find nil takers as the relevant authorities will not entertain it. Following the same logic what right have you got to characterise the Arjun as shitty when you are an outsider and an amateur. Obviously you are not an Armoured Regiment high ranking officer.

Let's leave it at that. Unknowingly you are stirring up anti Russian feelings by suggesting that India treat all Russian weapon systems as equivalent to indigenous systems.

 

[Sachinananda]

While the T-90s don't have swivel launchers for their grenades, they have gotten new IR smoke grenades and have been fitted with APS+MAWS since 2016. I am not aware of this upgrade being applied to T-72s, however since HVF's T-90s are replacing T-72s in multiple regiments, I'm not surprised

There is difference between proposal and integration
LED-150 has been proposed but not integrated
Moreover there exists no pic to prove its integration

 

[Dom the Dumb]

I am amazed at your value system and how you view India's future.
As per you, manufacturing the T90 or its variants is as good as designing, developing and manufacturing an Indian indigenous tank.
Has India mortgaged its future to Russia.

Russia was and is still a friend of India but to suggest that India remains satisfied by serving as an client state for Russia is really the height of servitude.

India will make friends with like minded countries who believe in a multi polar world but is too ancient an civilization and too big population wise and even area wise to become an concubine of any other country.

There is no need for India to agree 100% with Russia on all matters. We may have an different approach to certain defence issues.

I believe that one of the objectives of our attempt to build an indigenous tank was to combine the best design aspects of both Soviet/Russian and Western tanks.

To put it bluntly, the Russian T90+ cannot in any sense be considered as an fully Indian tank. If India(very unlikely) buys the American Abrams tank and manufactures it under licence, it too cannot be considered an Indian designed tank.

My other pertinent point was that Russia never tried to help India in its Arjun tank programme, thus forcing us to turn to the Europeans for technical assistance.

There are suspicions amongst some Indians that Russia mainly sees India as a cash cow. An large captive market for Russian arms. It is not in their interest to help India develop its own MBT because then India would stop buying Russian tanks.

Your almost fan boyish worship of Russia is counterproductive for long term Russian interests in India as it may offend many patriotic Indians.

And as you yourself have said that any suggestions made by you to improve the Arjun tank will find nil takers as the relevant authorities will not entertain it. Following the same logic what right have you got to characterise the Arjun as shitty when you are an outsider and an amateur. Obviously you are not an Armoured Regiment high ranking officer.

Let's leave it at that. Unknowingly you are stirring up anti Russian feelings by suggesting that India treat all Russian weapon systems as equivalent to indigenous systems.

You are a dancing monkey, who says random things that bear no connection to any point I made.

Good day to you, sir

 

[Tridev123]

You are a dancing monkey, who says random things that bear no connection to any point I made.

Good day to you, sir

And you are a Russian cock sucker.
No coherent answer to the points made.
Desperately stooping to insults. Asshole.

 

[abingdonboy]

And you are a Russian cock sucker.
No coherent answer to the points made.
Desperately stooping to insults. Asshole.

No need for that at all. We are all here just to have a civil discussion, keep the abuse out

 

[Corvus Splendens]

You are a dancing monkey, who says random things that bear no connection to any point I made.

Good day to you, sir

Stick to reddit Dom, don't take members here for fools.