Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Dom the Dumb]

Sirji, tell me one thing
Do the afsars suggest anything better than a Rifled 120 mm gun ?
Do they have opinions on these tech specs?
Like they must be wanting a rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun , don't they ?

The Arjun project was born in a time when rifled was king in the IA. The Centurions, Vijayantas, T-55s were all fitted with rifled guns and these tanks were absolute BEASTS in '65 and '71. However, by the 90s and early 2000s, the IA switched to the smoothbore of the T-72 and T-90. They have recognised this type of gun is FAR better and that is one of the main concerns with the Arjun.

 

[Dom the Dumb]

It’s a bit ridiculous to use this against the Arjun and becomes quite circular logic pretty quickly

Arjun is bad because it’s present in such small numbers, it’s present in such small numbers because it is bad

This sort of thing has been used against Arjun for years- DRDO needed a minimum order of 500 according to them to localise they spares and engine for the Arjun, by ordering only 2 regiments (~120) the IA made a white elephant of the Arjun from the start.


by the IA’s own trails the Arjun was superior to the T90 by pretty much every metric or they had purposefully tested the Arjun to a higher standard than they every tested the T90

View attachment 188176

I didn't actually bring up any of these points, so it's just... moot. Also the Arjun was tested against the base model T-90S, which is a shit version of the T-90A. Our T-90S has since been upgraded with an electronics suite that completely outmatches the Arjun and is on par with the T-90M. Furthermore, the rounds, serviceability and survivability of the T-90 are MUCH better

 

[cyclops]

It’s a bit ridiculous to use this against the Arjun and becomes quite circular logic pretty quickly

Arjun is bad because it’s present in such small numbers, it’s present in such small numbers because it is bad

This sort of thing has been used against Arjun for years- DRDO needed a minimum order of 500 according to them to localise they spares and engine for the Arjun, by ordering only 2 regiments (~120) the IA made a white elephant of the Arjun from the start.


by the IA’s own trails the Arjun was superior to the T90 by pretty much every metric or they had purposefully tested the Arjun to a higher standard than they every tested the T90

View attachment 188176

It physically hurts me to see the screenshots of this report even after so many years.

 

[Dom the Dumb]

It’s a bit ridiculous to use this against the Arjun and becomes quite circular logic pretty quickly

Arjun is bad because it’s present in such small numbers, it’s present in such small numbers because it is bad

This sort of thing has been used against Arjun for years- DRDO needed a minimum order of 500 according to them to localise they spares and engine for the Arjun, by ordering only 2 regiments (~120) the IA made a white elephant of the Arjun from the start.


by the IA’s own trails the Arjun was superior to the T90 by pretty much every metric or they had purposefully tested the Arjun to a higher standard than they every tested the T90

View attachment 188176

Also the post you quoted was not the argument I made against the Arjun. I was only answering a question.

This is the argument against the Arjun

 

[Sachinananda]

Utterly and completely wrong on "Soviet era junk like BMP and T-72/90". Don't believe what you read on twitter.

The BMP is exactly equal in capability, survivability, armour and firepower to the brilliant M2 Bradley. The T-72/90 being crap bullshit is just propaganda. The Turks lost Leo 2s to towelheads with 105mm RCLs, the Egyptians lost M1A2 Abrams to the same fucks. In fact, here and here is an M1 Abrams commander and a retired Austrian mechanised infantryman addressing exactly these myths propagated by Ukraine's brilliant information war.

As a matter of fact, the bulk of Ukraine's armoured forces (those responsible for destroying the majority of enemy armour) are T-80s or variants thereof, which are in every way inferior to most T-90 variants and certainly completely inferior to the T-72B3, T-90M, T-90S Bhishma, T-72 CIA. The Russian T-90s have seen staggering success, as have fucking T-60s and T-64s. T-72s have been blown apart earlier in the war but that was operator issue, as they had no infantry cover and were exposed to enemy fire.

Also ANY MODERN ATGM WILL DESTROY ANY MODERN TANK. Full stop, the end. So citing ATGMs as killing tanks so the tank is crap is like saying bullets kill humans so humans are bad designs.

Citing battles like 73 Easting is also pointless. The Iraqi T-72s had not been modernised past the original T-72M. 73 Easting in which Chally 2s and Abrams destroyed essentially repainted T-72M1s is akin to a Centurion VII destroying a Panzer II.

If we were to compare our stock of tanks to the enemy, we are MORE than okay. The T-90S Bhishma is on par with the Type-99A, which is the most advanced tank India will face. The T-72s are on par with everything else we might face. In fact the "fearsome" Type-97 and Type-99 are essentially just rejigged T-72s with a new name. Only the Type-99A is a serious step up.

Pakistan's armour is essentially not a threat. Their most significant numbers come from upgraded T-55s with only the T-84 and VT-4 providing a serious danger, but again, that danger is also limited, for reasons above explained.

Hell, leave aside the VT-4, Type-99 and Type-99A and even the shitty Arjun is good enough for what our adversaries have

Typical Indian officer superiority complex
Typical
Calling shits best in town
Forget China even our tanks can not take on porkies vt-4
Type-99 and 99A are far ahead that t-90
Just look at our tanks how may un armored parts exists
Literally 30-40 doesn't seems to have plates
And they don't come closer to Arjun at all
Just like IA they will shout best best until d-day after that running for actually good equipments
Nothing offensive sir

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Typical Indian officer superiority complex
Typical
Calling shits best in town
Forget China even our tanks can not take on porkies vt-4
Type-99 and 99A are far ahead that t-90
Just look at our tanks how may un armored parts exists
Literally 30-40 doesn't seems to have plates
And they don't come closer to Arjun at all
Just like IA they will shout best best until d-day after that running for actually good equipments
Nothing offensive sir

You're wrong on all counts. I mean astoundingly wrong. I don't know why you think this or where you read this information. But you're astoundingly wrong

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Typical Indian officer superiority complex
Typical
Calling shits best in town
Forget China even our tanks can not take on porkies vt-4
Type-99 and 99A are far ahead that t-90
Just look at our tanks how may un armored parts exists
Literally 30-40 doesn't seems to have plates
And they don't come closer to Arjun at all
Just like IA they will shout best best until d-day after that running for actually good equipments
Nothing offensive sir

I mean it's like you didn't read anything I wrote

 

[abingdonboy]

Neither the K21 nor the Puma are anything unique. The K21 is just a reskinned Bradley and if anything, the K21 has worse survivability as compared to both the BMP and M2. The Puma, while likely having better survivability, is just as well armed as both the M2 and the BMP. If we really want to talk about a step-up in IFV design, we should talk about the Stryker. But, again, the only advantage the Stryker has is modularity, with armour and survivability being the same.

Also the Arjun doesn't have blow-out panels, it has canisterised storage - not nearly as effective. Furthermore, Russian tanks cannot change their design from a carousel based autoloader to a human loader. The 125mm rounds are so large and so powerful they need multiple steps in the loading process, something that would tire a human loader FAR too quickly in combat situations.

Furthermore, while the carousel loader is a distinct disadvantage in terms of survivability, it has been compensated for with much heavier armour and APS. At any rate, whether the ammo is hit or not, no tank crew, 99% of the time, will remain in a tank that has been penetrated. There are multiple videos, like here, of Russian tanks surviving direct hits by ATGMs.

Once again, the overwhelming combat losses come down to bad use, bad training and bad doctrine. Same reason why the Turks and Egyptians lost world class tanks in the ME

As far as I know the Arjun’s canisterised storage does feature blow out panels

the points about the rifled gun are perfectly valid then, they’ve tried to overcome these shortcomings with the CLGM integration, which only partly makes up for the issues faced by going down this route. It was definitely a mistake and should’ve been corrected a long time ago but they stubbornly stuck to it. I do wonder if rifled barrel had been a requirement from the IA in the first place but either way it’s more of a hindrance.

regarding the BMPs, their mobility is about the only thing they have going for them, in every other way they are about the worst IFV still in service plus the IA has made little to no effort to improve the onboard systems (BMS) or survivability, how they are delivered today is effectively how they were in 1980 whilst the PLA actively pursue and practice net centric warfare

 

[abingdonboy]

I didn't actually bring up any of these points, so it's just... moot. Also the Arjun was tested against the base model T-90S, which is a shit version of the T-90A. Our T-90S has since been upgraded with an electronics suite that completely outmatches the Arjun and is on par with the T-90M. Furthermore, the rounds, serviceability and survivability of the T-90 are MUCH better

What evidence is there for this upgrade? Until relatively recently most of this fleet didn’t even have night sights or even AC

and the BMS featured on the Arjun MK.1 are superior to anything I’ve seen featured in an Indian T90

with everything said and done the Arjun MK1A is far superior by every metric to the T90 even the T90MS, the shortcomings are that the IA still doesn’t seem interested in APS on any of its vehicles.

but another token order ensures that that fleet will meet the same fate as the MK1s and be hanger queens/white elephants riddled with maintenance issues due to the low production run

 

[Sachinananda]

What evidence is there for this upgrade? Until relatively recently most of this fleet didn’t even have night sights or even AC

and the BMS featured on the Arjun MK.1 are superior to anything I’ve seen featured in an Indian T90

with everything said and done the Arjun MK1A is far superior by every metric to the T90 even the T90MS, the shortcomings are that the IA still doesn’t seem interested in APS on any of its vehicles.

but another token order ensures that that fleet will meet the same fate as the MK1s and be hanger queens/white elephants riddled with maintenance issues due to the low production run

I personally feel our t-90 are inferior to other t-90 in world except older version
Just look how many parts are uncovered forget that no aps, no good bms, no mordern electronics, no see through armour

 

[abingdonboy]

I personally feel our t-90 are inferior to other t-90 in world except older version
Just look how many parts are uncovered forget that no aps, no good bms, no mordern electronics, no see through armour

Indian T90 are all of 1990s vintage tech wise even the ones delivered in the last 10 years, unless something has drastically changed most don’t have thermal sights or a decent BMS forget about APS and all that other relatively modern stuff.

 

[Love Charger]

The Arjun project was born in a time when rifled was king in the IA. The Centurions, Vijayantas, T-55s were all fitted with rifled guns and these tanks were absolute BEASTS in '65 and '71. However, by the 90s and early 2000s, the IA switched to the smoothbore of the T-72 and T-90. They have recognised this type of gun is FAR better and that is one of the main concerns with the Arjun.

So they desire a 125 mm smoothie gun for arjun.
Good

 

[abingdonboy]

So they desire a 125 mm smoothie gun for arjun.
Good

They always desire the next thing

Perfect is the enemy of good enough

they had imported tanks with rifled barrels so asked for that (hence Arjun), then they got smoothbore with Russian MBT and now want this so Arjun is inferior

ditto for the arty, Dhanush-45 wasn’t good enough so they asked for a 52 with the ability to use zone 7 charges hence ATAGS with a 25L chamber. Now they are saying ATAGS is too heavy (but K9 is okay to operate in foreword areas) so they need ATHOS

No long term or even medium term thinking. Just brochure surfing and RFI/ASQR writing then they retire and it’s not their problem anymore

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian T90 are all of 1990s vintage tech wise even the ones delivered in the last 10 years, unless something has drastically changed most don’t have thermal sights or a decent BMS forget about APS and all that other relatively modern stuff.

Correction. Thanks to DRDO and their production partners most T-72/T-90 should have thermal imaging for their drivers and fire control system. The T90s will also get thermal imaging equipped commanders sights (developed for Arjun MK1A).

These contracts were issued in the last 7 years after scathing CAG reports citing 50% of the IA’s armoured fleet were ‘night blind’

as for IA BMP-2s they are largely unmodified since the 1980s

@Indx TechStyle @ezsasa probably best to move this discussion to the appropriate thread

 

[Dom the Dumb]

So they desire a 125 mm smoothie gun for arjun.
Good

Not necessarily a 125 but yeah

 

[Dom the Dumb]

What evidence is there for this upgrade? Until relatively recently most of this fleet didn’t even have night sights or even AC

and the BMS featured on the Arjun MK.1 are superior to anything I’ve seen featured in an Indian T90

with everything said and done the Arjun MK1A is far superior by every metric to the T90 even the T90MS, the shortcomings are that the IA still doesn’t seem interested in APS on any of its vehicles.

but another token order ensures that that fleet will meet the same fate as the MK1s and be hanger queens/white elephants riddled with maintenance issues due to the low production run

I'm not going to do another Arjun vs T-90 debate. Arjun apologists just don't see the shortcomings. It's also the most tired debate in the history of military forums

 

[Dom the Dumb]

As far as I know the Arjun’s canisterised storage does feature blow out panels

the points about the rifled gun are perfectly valid then, they’ve tried to overcome these shortcomings with the CLGM integration, which only partly makes up for the issues faced by going down this route. It was definitely a mistake and should’ve been corrected a long time ago but they stubbornly stuck to it. I do wonder if rifled barrel had been a requirement from the IA in the first place but either way it’s more of a hindrance.

regarding the BMPs, their mobility is about the only thing they have going for them, in every other way they are about the worst IFV still in service plus the IA has made little to no effort to improve the onboard systems (BMS) or survivability, how they are delivered today is effectively how they were in 1980 whilst the PLA actively pursue and practice net centric warfare

View attachment 188194

There are tons of videos of BMPs being hit and disabled and still the crew and soldiers pouring out. That's all the matters with an IFV. The 30mm gun is excellent. The sights have been upgraded. The ATGMs attachable are excellent

 

[Love Charger]

Not necessarily a 125 but yeah

Well what do they want then ? Like they are the end users .
They say the gun is under powered and ammo weak, okay
Then what do they want? A smoothbore gun of 120 mm , a smoothbore gun of 130 mm or a smoothbore of 125 mm ?
Or is it anything except rifled gun of arjun ?

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Indian T90 are all of 1990s vintage tech wise even the ones delivered in the last 10 years, unless something has drastically changed most don’t have thermal sights or a decent BMS forget about APS and all that other relatively modern stuff.

This is outdated information. The Bhishma program itself is a massive upgrade. For first delivery in 2008, this would have been true. But since 2016, every T-72 and T-90 has been upgraded with new LRF, a BEL MAWS, the T-72s have gotten Polish sights (night and thermal), the T-90s were equipped with BEL thermal and night sights from 2016 and as of Feb 2022, they are being equipped with upgraded sights by BEL and MKU. They've also been equipped with soft-kill APS (MAWS with automated smoke) and a new LWS. All this information is available with a quick Google.

Contrastingly, the Arjun hasn't received the upgraded cooled night sights, its FCS hasn't been upgraded since it was fitted in the 90s and it just cannot match the protection levels of the T-90 with ERA or the armour penetration of the HVAPDS Mk.I and Mk.II. Though the Arjun's "PCB" does beat the 3BM42, which is what it was trialed against, the 3BM42 only does 340mm at 2km against the PCB's 400

 

[Dom the Dumb]

Well what do they want then ? Like they are the end users .
They say the gun is under powered and ammo weak, okay
Then what do they want? A smoothbore gun of 120 mm , a smoothbore gun of 130 mm or a smoothbore of 125 mm ?
Or is it anything except rifled gun of arjun ?

Any smoothbore will do