Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Bleh

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Well it's no Shame to be on the learning curve. If because they lost they withdrew permanently from the competition that's stupidity. Learn from mistakes
What learning curve?!!.. Learning how to operate tanks? It was sheer incompetence, no mistake.

Tincan-90 is a piece of shit, but if someone loses BOTH hand picked machines to represent them at international competition, due to maintaince failures they don't deserve to own any... Now they're too ashamed to show their face before other tankers of the world, as if that'll stop the ridicule!
Happened to the Chinks once too, but they regularly win. These guys never came close.
 
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Marliii

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My personal opinion is that we should go with FRCV and we should make a indian version of it by NGMBT just like turks are doing with the k2.
 

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JBH22

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What learning curve?!!.. Learning how to operate tanks? It was sheer incompetence, no mistake.

Tincan-90 is a piece of shit, but if someone loses BOTH hand picked machines to represent them at international competition, due to maintaince failures they don't deserve to own any... Now they're too ashamed to show their face before other tankers of the world, as if that'll stop the ridicule!
Happened to the Chinks once too, but they regularly win. These guys never came close.
Any interaction from different armies can teach you something. To think Indian armed forces know it all that's ridiculous, I'm sure we can pick up something.
In regards t series tank being crap, I'm not sure. Because wars have been won by India using these very crap. If you suggest moving to western style tanks that would entail massive cuts in tank forces. Not to forget Israel, France or UK have hundreds of tanks while our requirements is for thousands. Can we afford an all tank force based on leopard that is not possible.
Not to mention Abrams , leopard also perform poorly in Syrian campaign.
 

Bleh

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Any interaction from different armies can teach you something. To think Indian armed forces know it all that's ridiculous, I'm sure we can pick up something.
In regards t series tank being crap, I'm not sure. Because wars have been won by India using these very crap. If you suggest moving to western style tanks that would entail massive cuts in tank forces. Not to forget Israel, France or UK have hundreds of tanks while our requirements is for thousands. Can we afford an all tank force based on leopard that is not possible.
Not to mention Abrams , leopard also perform poorly in Syrian campaign.
Some count the middleeasterns. Arabs will lose with anything... They & Israelis both had Centurions in '67. Look at the results.

Plus T-90S isn't cheap at all!.. Adjust for the size of order & those Tincan-90S were ordering again cost same as present Arjun Mark1A with 45% indigenous content.
 

ArgonPrime

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Where does this 500mm number come from? Is it
the tatget frontal protection level for Arjun?
No, genious, it ain't. It's just the hotshot IItians at the CVRDE just forgot to extend the armor cavity further back into the crew compartment behind the GMS while copying the Leo2A4 turret, which leaves about ~400-450 mm of space for armor, which means there's simply no room left in there to put any composite inserts and retain the level of protection necessary for a critical position like that.
Here is a photograph of an underproduction Leopard 2A4 in the factory
leo2a4.png

The cavity in red is where the GMS goes into, and the one behind in green is where they place the composite armor materials. Note, how the armor in the right extends further back as compared to in the left. This ain't the case for Arjun, sadly.

And as for the mantlet, we've seen it with the faceplate removed, and there was no composite armor there. And even 500mm is being way too generous I would say, given the design. Do keep in mind that you have to leave room for the gun's servo mechanism inside the mantlet and that makes the room available for armor in there quite limited (unless you can come up with a different design like the South Koreans did, which isn't the case for Arjun).
Also, your general statement that composite armor is always less effective than the same thickness of RHA is questionable.
For fuck's sake, go read a few books on armor development before clapping your traps, will ya??!!
With materials like ceramics and carbides that are all much harder than steel I find this hard to believe.
Just because your scientifically illiterate mind can not wrap itself around a certain fact doesn't make it untrue, simpleton!!
It is a well-known fact that steel is more thickness efficient but weight inefficient whereas composites are the exact opposites. Just do a comparison between the thickness of an AR500 NIJ Level III steel armor insert vs a Leve lII ESAPI one and see for yourself which one's thicker. The same applies to tank/AFV armor as well.
Steel is somehow the exact ideal material for defeating kinetic penetrators
Not ideal, just better cm for cm. What I mean by that is an RHA/HHA plate of a certain thickness will always provide a substantially higher level of protection against KE rounds as compared to a composite block of identical thickness.
When it comes to stopping heavy alloy penetrators, it's the relative density of the rod and armor material that counts much more than sheer hardness. And that's why we aren't even sure whether ceramics are at all used in composite armor in any meaningful amount.
and no other composite is more effective on a per thickness basis?
Pretty cool, isn't it??
If this is such a well established fact, it should be easy for you to find a source for it.
It's your job to find and familiarize yourself with the relevant facts before you decide to engage someone in a debate, on a subject you lack in any meaningful knowledge (made quite apparent by your ignorance).
 
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Bleh

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Continuation of the above post:-

Arjun Mark1A's side-armour depends on whether the outer module is a storage box & inner one the armor, or vice versa...
Hard to tell for sure, because it's clearly a single attachment welded to the body in Mark1A, unlike Mark1 or the initial prototypes (where they are/were multiple seperate sheet-metal storage boxes).
H2020111492781.jpg
IMG_20210113_122538.jpg

The small openings at its top are misleading. Type-96/99 frontal armour has them on their roof (they are labelled as "composite armour service hatch).
 
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Bleh

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What's the scope for, or future of, Arjun MK1A's and MK2's in the Indian Army in coming years?
Really at an impasse right now... Mark1 platform is not great, Mark1A is downright jugaad, but the latter has access to much newer tech & there's possibility Mark2 is getting it's turret redesigned. We aren't getting T-90MS either (which would definitely have ended the Arjun program's chances).

FMBT and/or FRCV hasn't seen any progress in recent years. Atleast the developed new tech is starting to make its way down to T-72/90 platforms, starting from Ajeya Mark2.
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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Really at an impasse right now... Mark1 platform is not great, Mark1A is downright jugaad, but the latter has access to much newer tech & there's possibility Mark2 is getting it's turret redesigned. We aren't getting T-90MS either (which would definitely have ended the Arjun program's chances).

FMBT and/or FRCV hasn't seen any progress in recent years. Atleast the developed new tech is starting to make its way down to T-72/90 platforms, starting from Ajeya Mark2.
Do you have any photo of ajay mk 2?
 

ArgonPrime

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Continuation of the above post:-

Arjun Mark1A's side-armour depends on whether the outer module is a storage box & inner one the armor, or vice versa...
Hard to tell for sure, because it's clearly a single attachment welded to the body in Mark1A, unlike Mark1 or the initial prototypes (where they are/were multiple seperate sheet-metal storage boxes).View attachment 73570View attachment 73572
The small openings at its top are misleading. Type-96/99 frontal armour has them on their roof (they are labelled as "composite armour service hatch).
Nope, these are storage bins alright as the walls appear to be made out of thin sheets of metal instead of solid RHA front plates.
 

Bleh

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Do you have any photo of ajay mk 2?
There's some on twitter & DFI only. Search here & google. You'll get them.
Nope, these are storage bins alright as the walls appear to be made out of thin sheets of metal instead of solid RHA front plates.
In some, yes.. Seems to me it varies between prototypes. Here the outer module is made of wavy sheet metal, looking like a storage box.
9cd87c67_68ed_4b92_9859_d21384df7718.jpg

While this had clearly 3 seperate flimsy boxes...
ErOEpubU0AERr3N.jpeg
...this has a continuous plate welded to the body, showing no indication of being thin sheets.
IMG_20210113_122538.jpg
 
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