Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Pig benis on sushy]

Hull alone can be <50ton. I think it was lost by misinterpretation. To make that whole behemoth that light, you'll have to use Titanium.
But lot of the weight is caused by design deficiency related unnecessary oversize & large blocks of RHA instead of composite layer (especially on mantlet & behind GMS)... So if Arjun Mark2 is going to be an overall turret redesign, then it could come before 60t.

For Mark1A I'm most interested is seeing if the laser designator is placed on ERA tiles as depicted here... View attachment 71744

Titanium it would be a disaster Once titanium starts to burn it doesn't stop

 

[Bleh]

Titanium it would be a disaster Once titanium starts to burn it doesn't stop

Uh, yeah dude. I wasn't being serious. Just an example.

you should also read up the whole sabotage saga that played out during Arjun trials. Through repeated sabotages unfair conditions we managed to buy a tank that was not worth the money.

That's just intrigue, every country has had their own.

 

[Hellfire]

Probably... T-90S displayed the true worth of such people in Biathlons. Now IA is too ashamed to even show it's face there for last 3 years!

T-90s are just a sorry excuse purchased when Arjun didn't turn up in 20+ years.

Project MBT is evolving, but to attribute its tardy progress to 'phoren maal', 'dalali' is akin to the typical Indian approach of not looking within at the project planning and execution.

Granted that there are retards in forces who can not differentiate between their elbow and their collective behinds, and quite a few times, this particular subgroup heads up, but there is also a team of "Scientists", "Technocrats", "Qualified Managers/Supervisors", whose job is precisely this and who still fail to forsee possible shortfalls.

Earlier had merely posted excerpts of CAG report on how the Night vision devices for T-55 came almost a decade after the plan to retire them were finalized. And it had nothing to do with IA looking at "phoren maal" but Opto Electronics Factory Dehradun literally losing to a snail in quest to complete the orders.

There is a reason why CAG reports, even with redactions, have been disallowed in public domain.

Just start musing over certain crucial and supposedly well established programs for our forces ...... simply read about the trials and few failures from user stocks.

 

[NAMICA]

Wars are not fought on mere wishful thinking. Logistics become the rate determinant in any war.

Most of the culverts and small bridges on Indian side are still in need of upgrade (the GoI has only recently realized that infrastructure in border area is of significance for own security).

Imagine having to undertake a bridging operation just to position the tanks into the concentration area of an offensive armoured formation just to build forces to attack and sudden intelligence input which presents thin enemy defenses on a completely different axis of advance which can be breached and exploited and having to switch the axis of the attack at last minute to take advantage of a potential tactical weakness of enemy defences.

Oh the horror of having to undertake bridging operations all over again or going scores of kilometers off track just to cross the irrigation channels on our own side .... to build up for an attack on the new axis - eating time in hours if not days.

Also, in 2010, for the first time Arjun became a tank taking a note of. With shortfalls, no doubt, but it could be looked at. I am all for it in Desert areas going forward, but there needs to be a plan supported by GoI for the same.

You need investment, massive amounts, in upgrading the civil infrastructure on own side in order to allow for rapid positioning of the heavy weight. Additionally, a concentrated effort needs to be made in order to provide for the support infrastructure for the tank itself, which needs input costs that simply can not be sustained by Army exclusively without critically hitting funding in other areas. I

But then, the genius here thinks that getting a tank ready and put at frontline is the end.

Side note: That skeleton is probably representative of most of us, assuredly.

Now for Namica

@NAMICA what is the consistent CAG observation on cost allocation by OFB to items for procurement of items by forces? How is the cost allocation done by OFB or for that matter, any product?

And why is AK-203 to be built in India more costly than if imported directly from Russia?

And why was INSAS more expensive per unit item by a factor of at least 7x as opposed to the AK series that were available for direct purchase from Soviet Bloc countries?

With Al-31s being made by HAL, how much has that translated into successful engines for Tejas? (The analogy was for this)

For Arjun, how are things with the indigenous engine? This, after India does make engines ..... do let me know.

There is no doubt that veterans have more knowledge and experience than normal guys using defence forums. I think that GOI will be upgrading all bridges in border areas to bear load up to 70 tonn and roads will be also widened up to two lane. Of course these all things are being done for broader perspective not just for tanks.

Regarding OFB it is a shitty organisation which need to be disbanded or privatized so kindly don't ask anything about them.

Now coming to engines two progress have been made.
1. Upgrading of T72 engine to 1000 hp ,it is currently under testing.
2. Development of 1500 hp engine, it recently had it's first run.

 

[Hellfire]

you should also read up the whole sabotage saga that played out during Arjun trials. Through repeated sabotages unfair conditions we managed to buy a tank that was not worth the money.

That was 2010. Not 1998.

Get the facts right please.

And GoI babus, typical of penny wise pound foolish, spent money removing stuff from T-90s, only to get them installed at greater costs later

 

[NAMICA]

T-90s are just a sorry excuse purchased when Arjun didn't turn up in 20+ years.

Project MBT is evolving, but to attribute its tardy progress to 'phoren maal', 'dalali' is akin to the typical Indian approach of not looking within at the project planning and execution.

Granted that there are retards in forces who can not differentiate between their elbow and their collective behinds, and quite a few times, this particular subgroup heads up, but there is also a team of "Scientists", "Technocrats", "Qualified Managers/Supervisors", whose job is precisely this and who still fail to forsee possible shortfalls.

Earlier had merely posted excerpts of CAG report on how the Night vision devices for T-55 came almost a decade after the plan to retire them were finalized. And it had nothing to do with IA looking at "phoren maal" but Opto Electronics Factory Dehradun literally losing to a snail in quest to complete the orders.

There is a reason why CAG reports, even with redactions, have been disallowed in public domain.

Just start musing over certain crucial and supposedly well established programs for our forces ...... simply read about the trials and few failures from user stocks.

I wonder when will army become more tech savvy like navy.

 

[Bleh]

Something interesting happened. Does that mean Indian crew were not up to the mark?

Not that Indian crews ever managed to win... but in this case Tincan-90 chosen to compete broke down. Then the tank that was kept as its emergency replacement quickly broke down as well.

Our clowns made the whole world laugh (at India tho)!

 

[FalconZero]

Wars are not fought on mere wishful thinking. Logistics become the rate determinant in any war.

Most of the culverts and small bridges on Indian side are still in need of upgrade (the GoI has only recently realized that infrastructure in border area is of significance for own security).

Imagine having to undertake a bridging operation just to position the tanks into the concentration area of an offensive armoured formation just to build forces to attack and sudden intelligence input which presents thin enemy defenses on a completely different axis of advance which can be breached and exploited and having to switch the axis of the attack at last minute to take advantage of a potential tactical weakness of enemy defences.

Oh the horror of having to undertake bridging operations all over again or going scores of kilometers off track just to cross the irrigation channels on our own side .... to build up for an attack on the new axis - eating time in hours if not days.

Also, in 2010, for the first time Arjun became a tank taking a note of. With shortfalls, no doubt, but it could be looked at. I am all for it in Desert areas going forward, but there needs to be a plan supported by GoI for the same.

You need investment, massive amounts, in upgrading the civil infrastructure on own side in order to allow for rapid positioning of the heavy weight. Additionally, a concentrated effort needs to be made in order to provide for the support infrastructure for the tank itself, which needs input costs that simply can not be sustained by Army exclusively without critically hitting funding in other areas. I

But then, the genius here thinks that getting a tank ready and put at frontline is the end.

Side note: That skeleton is probably representative of most of us, assuredly.

Now for Namica

@NAMICA what is the consistent CAG observation on cost allocation by OFB to items for procurement of items by forces? How is the cost allocation done by OFB or for that matter, any product?

And why is AK-203 to be built in India more costly than if imported directly from Russia?

And why was INSAS more expensive per unit item by a factor of at least 7x as opposed to the AK series that were available for direct purchase from Soviet Bloc countries?

With Al-31s being made by HAL, how much has that translated into successful engines for Tejas? (The analogy was for this)

For Arjun, how are things with the indigenous engine? This, after India does make engines ..... do let me know.

Well logistics is part true and has been rightfully pointed out by other members here, arjun has been a mess and buying just few of them didn't make sense to me but maybe as @Bleh pointed out, we will probably see some iterations of it in NGMBT. Maybe we should focus on upgrading our T90s, T72, etc. Last i checked they lacked even APS which are available on most of the chink ones.

Coming to Kaveri, the well issue is with Single Crystal blade structure which has been solved. It will come of age hopefully with the help of some foreign partners and a bit more investment and attention from GOI, you can compare the funding of various Engine projects with Kaveri and you can see the disparity.

Also, OFB is shiet...yeah it has been said countless times....nobody has any love affairs with them other than commies.

 

[Hellfire]

There is no doubt that veterans have more knowledge and experience than normal guys using defence forums. I think that GOI will be upgrading all bridges in border areas to bear load up to 70 tonn and roads will be also widened up to two lane. Of course these all things are being done for broader perspective not just for tanks.

Regarding OFB it is a shitty organisation which need to be disbanded or privatized so kindly don't ask anything about them.

Now coming to engines two progress have been made.
1. Upgrading of T72 engine to 1000 hp ,it is currently under testing.
2. Development of 1500 hp engine, it recently had it's first run.

So, when you know jack, I suggest stop abusing people. Especially random people who have a big ego thanks to being taught to live with pride by Indian Army and who know what to do with people who insult or cast aspersions on their honour.

And T-72 has been around since forever ........ ever wonder why only now an engine? It is not for the lack of effort - assuredly.

 

[NAMICA]

So, when you know jack, I suggest stop abusing people. Especially random people who have a big ego thanks to being taught to live with pride by Indian Army and who know what to do with people who insult or cast aspersions on their honour.

And T-72 has been around since forever ........ ever wonder why only now an engine? It is not for the lack of effort - assuredly.

It's has got new ERA, FCS, optics, APU, ammo what else.

 

[Hellfire]

It's has got new ERA, FCS, optics, APU, ammo what else.

Really? New ERA? In OFB Handout Pics?

Somehow I didnt see them in my last Divisional Integral Armoured Regiment

I guess we have 100% IPEs for CBRN too ... oh wait ......
I also came to know we have underground nuclear shelters for our troops to protect ...... yet to see them on ground (the claim was made in Kargil War, mind you, by DRDO)

 

[Coalmine]

Probably... T-90S displayed the true worth of such people in Biathlons. Now IA is too ashamed to even show it's face there for last 3 years!

Yes situation is so pathetic. Somebody need to openly call out and shame these generals.
Abhijit iyer mitra had in show in pgurus about it.
Hopefully huge cry is created in media.

 

[hit&run]

Moderator Warning: No personal attacks. Do not make negative alliances with other members to target posters you disagree.

 

[Hellfire]

@Bleh that's the main problem with veterans they are still living in 19's.

Genius, on ground .... forget about T-72s in certain Independent Armoured Brigade.

Here watch

Picture above - These are imporved T-72s of an Armoured Brigade (Picture circa 2019)

The picture above is your ERA Mk II

T-72 for Integral Armoured Regiment of an Infantry Division with trawls for establishing a VSL in canal crossing exercise (ERA????)

T-72 in Ladakh this year

T-72 behind the COAS on his recent visit ex-Independent Armoured Brigade there

Do point out the new ERAs in extensive use ...... unless the Integrated Armoured Regiment T-72 are wearing most advanced ERA "The Emperor's New Clothes", do show me


That is the problem - am taught of something which I see on ground

 

[silentlurker]

What are you talking about?.. They did where they could, but the design limited some parts from being a casing to hold composite tiles & instead had to be made to solid steel.

Why? Where? Other than the basic frame of the tank, I don't see why RHA can't be replaced with composites

 

[Cruise missile]

Genius, on ground .... forget about T-72s in certain Independent Armoured Brigade.

Here watch

View attachment 71783

Picture above - These are imporved T-72s of an Armoured Brigade (Picture circa 2019)

View attachment 71784

The picture above is your ERA Mk II

View attachment 71785

T-72 for Integral Armoured Regiment of an Infantry Division with trawls for establishing a VSL in canal crossing exercise (ERA????)

View attachment 71786

T-72 in Ladakh this year

View attachment 71788

T-72 behind the COAS on his recent visit ex-Independent Armoured Brigade there

Do point out the new ERAs in extensive use ...... unless the Integrated Armoured Regiment T-72 are wearing most advanced ERA "The Emperor's New Clothes", do show me


That is the problem - am taught of something which I see on ground

Seems like it is under trials or waiting new engine.

 

[silentlurker]

No I believe or understand that the tanks were provided by the Russian. T72B3 iirc.

"Sources said both the main and reserve T-90S tanks, shipped by India for the Tank Biathlon in the International Army Games at the Alabino ranges in Russia, developed “engine problems” after performing “exceedingly well” in the initial rounds of the competition."

Indian tanks crash out of international military games after engine troubles | India News - Times of India

India News: The Indian Army has crashed out of a 19-nation military competition after its Russian-origin T-90S main-battle tanks broke down due to mechanical snag

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Genius, on ground .... forget about T-72s in certain Independent Armoured Brigade.

Here watch

View attachment 71783

Picture above - These are imporved T-72s of an Armoured Brigade (Picture circa 2019)

View attachment 71784

The picture above is your ERA Mk II

View attachment 71785

T-72 for Integral Armoured Regiment of an Infantry Division with trawls for establishing a VSL in canal crossing exercise (ERA????)

View attachment 71786

T-72 in Ladakh this year

View attachment 71788

T-72 behind the COAS on his recent visit ex-Independent Armoured Brigade there

Do point out the new ERAs in extensive use ...... unless the Integrated Armoured Regiment T-72 are wearing most advanced ERA "The Emperor's New Clothes", do show me


That is the problem - am taught of something which I see on ground

Most pics of T-72 tanks from ladakh do have them sporting MK 1 era.. The lack of era of the T-72s during ford crossing may have to do with reducing the load on the bridges.. Here is a pic of a T-72 being off loaded from an aircraft with ERA removed..

 

[silentlurker]

The lack of era of the T-72s during ford crossing may have to do with reducing the load on the bridges..

??? The whole point of fording a river is to NOT use a bridge

 

[Shashank Nayak]

??? The whole point of fording a river is to NOT use a bridge

Wrong choice of words there.. My reference was to the picture where you have 2 tanks crossing the military bridge.