Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[silentlurker]

Wrong choice of words there.. My reference was to the picture where you have 2 tanks crossing the military bridge.

Sorry, browsing on mobile with pics disabled

 

[Hellfire]

Most pics of T-72 tanks from ladakh do have them sporting MK 1 era.. The lack of era of the T-72s during ford crossing may have to do with reducing the load on the bridges.. Here is a pic of a T-72 being off loaded from an aircraft with ERA removed..

View attachment 71795

Follow the quotes as below to get the flow.

Also, the pic above is from 1990 or thereabouts, airlift undertaken of a T-72 by 25 Squadron (which then had half of the IL-76s along with 44, the latter now the sole custodian) from Chennai. The pilot in question, is retired and was Flight Commander of 44 Squadron. Presently with Air Asia. (note the specifics)

Exactly 6-8 cms on either side the space remains when a T-72 moves into an IL-76.

Yes, mk1 ERAs are the standard fits across all T-72s. But not all are updated to Combat Improved standards either. But claim of new ERA being available on T-7s was being made.

It's has got new ERA, FCS, optics, APU, ammo what else.

To this my reply was as under. Note, discussion is about the new ERA i.e mk2, which the claims were being made, was there on ground.

Really? New ERA? In OFB Handout Pics?

Somehow I didnt see them in my last Divisional Integral Armoured Regiment

I guess we have 100% IPEs for CBRN too ... oh wait ......
I also came to know we have underground nuclear shelters for our troops to protect ...... yet to see them on ground (the claim was made in Kargil War, mind you, by DRDO)

Seems like it is under trials or waiting new engine.

It has been in trials for few years now. Thank you

Most pics of T-72 tanks from ladakh do have them sporting MK 1 era.. The lack of era of the T-72s during ford crossing may have to do with reducing the load on the bridges.. Here is a pic of a T-72 being off loaded from an aircraft with ERA removed..

View attachment 71795

No, that has nothing to do with the reduction of weight for crossing canal over bridging. It is merely that the particular regiment has older T-72s which have not been upgraded due to a couple of years as residual life. Yes, there are regiments like that ....

If it was for weight reduction, trawls would not be there on the Tanks

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

No, that has nothing to do with the reduction of weight for crossing canal over bridging. It is merely that the particular regiment has older T-72s which have not been upgraded due to a couple of years as residual life. Yes, there are regiments like that ....

T-72 need to be replaced. What are your thoughts on the Army's FRCV program? Is it part of "Project MBT"? Also, given that Army's CAPEX is currently around $3.5 Billion, and assuming the defence budget doubles in next 10 years, that should give Army at least an average of $5.5 Billion per year of CAPEX for the next 10 years. In that amount, is it feasible to replace T-72 with FRCV @ 150 tanks per year? If these tanks cost as much as Arjun Mk1A (i.e. 76 Crores per tank), it should cost the Army $1.5 Billion per year for 10 years to replace remaining T-72. With total CAPEX of $5.5 Billion, it should be achievable.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

T-72 need to be replaced. What are your thoughts on the Army's FRCV program? Is it part of "Project MBT"? Also, given that Army's CAPEX is currently around $3.5 Billion, and assuming the defence budget doubles in next 10 years, that should give Army at least an average of $5.5 Billion per year of CAPEX for the next 10 years. In that amount, is it feasible to replace T-72 with FRCV @ 150 tanks per year? If these tanks cost as much as Arjun Mk1A (i.e. 76 Crores per tank), it should cost the Army $1.5 Billion per year for 10 years to replace remaining T-72. With total CAPEX of $5.5 Billion, it should be achievable.

Project fmbt , lolz .
First IA should take their arjun mk1a and officialy end this saga .
As for other things , whole type 72 and type 90 fleet requires a major overhaul.
I mean a major upgrade of such a high level that noobs like me ,can also see some difference between old and new tanks after the upgrade .
No tank in today's era is safe without any aps .
Engine overhauls ( new engines ) .
Improved gun sights , improved gun stability , enhancement in crew comfort(AC , insan hai andar aur ye Siberia nai hai )
Night vision , infrared ,
Improved armour , along with modern era , like t 90 ms .
Let fmbt be a meme , which it is .
Army and drdo will again take 30 years for development , by playing blame game and the troops will suffer as always .

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Project fmbt , lolz .
First IA should take their arjun mk1a and officialy end this saga .
As for other things , whole type 72 and type 90 fleet requires a major overhaul.
I mean a major upgrade of such a high level that noobs like me ,can also see some difference between old and new tanks after the upgrade .
No tank in today's era is safe without any aps .
Engine overhauls ( new engines ) .
Improved gun sights , improved gun stability , enhancement in crew comfort(AC , insan hai andar aur ye Siberia nai hai )
Night vision , infrared ,
Improved armour , along with modern era , like t 90 ms .
Let fmbt be a meme , which it is .
Army and drdo will again take 30 years for development , by playing blame game and the troops will suffer as always .

I am talking about the FRCV. Not the FMBT. Kindly learn the difference first.

 

[WolfPack86]

ARMY TO MOVE DEFENCE MINISTRY FOR 118 ARJUN MK-1A TANKS
NEW DELHI: After delays, the process for procurement of 118 indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun MK-1A has commenced, according to an Army source. The cost as obtained from the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, is ₹8,956.59 crore.

“The file is currently with the Deputy Chief of Army Staff and will be shortly sent to Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) to put up the case. The case is planned to be fielded before the Defence Procurement Board (DPB) and the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in January 2021,” the source said. Issues with Arjun MK-1 ammunition, spares and repairs had also been resolved and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had set up an Arjun hub in Jaisalmer for spares and support, the source stated.

Stating that the Arjun MK-1A would be without missile firing capability and would be incorporated as and when the development was complete, the source said that at the Arjun hub in Jaisalmer, 248 rotables had been deposited.

The Arjun Mk-1A has 14 major upgrades over the Mk1 variant, which were formulated and approved in October 2018. Subsequently, limited user validation trials were carried out on all the upgrades. Seven meetings were held involving various stakeholders to resolve all issues with respect to Arjun Mk-1A between October 2019 and July 2020. Following this, the Statement of Case with comments from all stakeholders was forwarded to the Deputy Chief of Army Staff — Capability Development and Sustenance, it has been learnt.

Tackling Obsolescence

The Army has inducted two regiments of Arjun Mk1 between 2005 and 2010. Electronics would get obsolescent over 10-15 years and they needed to be constantly replaced, a defence official said. To address this, DRDO is working on obsolescence management of Arjun MBT and indigenisation of various assemblies and sub-assemblies, including Commander’s Panoramic Sight (CPS) and Gunner’s Main Sight (GMS) that are under indigenous development.

The indigenous CPS underwent successful trials earlier this month at the Pokhran field firing range and it was also demonstrated to the Deputy Chief of Army. There would be some summer trials, the official said. The indigenous GMS was expected to be integrated by March 2021 and then go for summer trials, the official said.

Once the indigenous CPS and advanced GMS were incorporated, the indigenous content of MBT Arjun Mk-1A would increase from 41% to 54.3% during production, two officials independently stated.

On the process and timeline of the project, the official explained that once DAC approved the case, the Army would place indent with the HVF, Avadi. “That is also expected to happen before March 31, 2021. HVF will then build the first five tanks in 30 months which are called ‘First of Production Model’,” the official stated.

These five tanks will be put through General Service Quality Requirement (GSQR) evaluation by the Army and will accord Bulk Production Clearance (BPC) if found satisfactory. Once BPC was given, production would be done as per an agreed schedule, the official said.

Observing that if subsequently more numbers were ordered beyond 118, it would immensely benefit the domestic industry and the ‘Make in India’ effort, the official added that the indigenisation content could also progressively go to 70% with more numbers.

Missile Firing Trials

The advanced GMS of the Arjun MK-1A had built-in laser target designator and the tank was customised for missile firing, a second official said. The missile is under development at the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, and trials are under way. Missile firing is under way at the ARDE. “A few more trials are required,” the official stated.

To incorporate this capability on the existing Arjun MK-1 tanks, the DRDO had developed an external laser target designator, which could be retrofitted on the MK1s in service, the official added.

Army To Move Defence Ministry For 118 Arjun MK-1A Tanks

It has 14 major upgrades over the Mk1 variant NEW DELHI : After delays, the process for procurement of 118 indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT)...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Bleh]

Why? Where? Other than the basic frame of the tank, I don't see why RHA can't be replaced with composites

1st you got the gun-mantlet, that is 1.5times the length & height of the one on Leopard2. Full metal.
Then the block behind the gunner's sight is too thin to be composite (composite needs to be thicker than RHA to get equal value of effective KE protection, still lighter tho). So any part not thicker than LOS 500mm is more likely hardened steel... as it can't be protected enough with composites.

That's the design deficiency in Arjun Mark1/A turret. They can replace a lot of metal with composites bringing down the weight by several quintals, if they're redesigning it in the true Mark2 to something like these concepts;

Note how armour here can be thick blocks of composite?

 

[Bleh]

Follow-up:
This is the most plausible design Arjun's armour layout...

Both blue blocks are no more than 500mm thick. If they were made of composites, then KE protection provided would be less than 400mm. (Maybe there's some ceramic in there to help with both HEAT & FSAPDS rounds but probably not Kanchan, in violet. No space, no Kevlar)

 

[silentlurker]

composite needs to be thicker than RHA to get equal value of effective KE protection,

I have never heard of this before, what is the reason? Do you have a source? Ceramics, plastics, and polymers can all be made pretty thin.

 

[Bleh]

I have never heard of this before, what is the reason? Do you have a source? Ceramics, plastics, and polymers can all be made pretty thin.

That'll be a lot to write!.. Just google around some history of composites. It is well-established fact.

Short explanation; Composite armour started with spacing between RHA plates... which was soon filled by angled plates, ceramics, ballistic rubber, even sand. So the overall protection is increased compared to same weight of RHA but needs more space. Same thickness of ceramic-plastic-polymer won't have same level of protection as RHA against KE (probably better against HEAT, but you need to optimise both. 500mm of RHA gives ±500mm armour equivalent against both FSAPDS & HEAT. But that value changes differently for both depending on composites materials.)

 

[Marliii]

Indian army orders more arjun tanks have been going for many years.the army wants FRCV program tanks the main contenders are k2 and t14.this latest fiasco by the army is so that when they order to 118 arjun mk1a and they will go with FRCV .there will be no ngmbt.118 order is for shutting DRDO's mouth.

 

[Cruise missile]

Follow the quotes as below to get the flow.

Also, the pic above is from 1990 or thereabouts, airlift undertaken of a T-72 by 25 Squadron (which then had half of the IL-76s along with 44, the latter now the sole custodian) from Chennai. The pilot in question, is retired and was Flight Commander of 44 Squadron. Presently with Air Asia. (note the specifics)

Exactly 6-8 cms on either side the space remains when a T-72 moves into an IL-76.

Yes, mk1 ERAs are the standard fits across all T-72s. But not all are updated to Combat Improved standards either. But claim of new ERA being available on T-7s was being made.



To this my reply was as under. Note, discussion is about the new ERA i.e mk2, which the claims were being made, was there on ground.






It has been in trials for few years now. Thank you



No, that has nothing to do with the reduction of weight for crossing canal over bridging. It is merely that the particular regiment has older T-72s which have not been upgraded due to a couple of years as residual life. Yes, there are regiments like that ....

If it was for weight reduction, trawls would not be there on the Tanks

India begins trials of upgraded T-72 Ajaya Mk2 MBTs – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

.

 

[Cruise missile]

Indian army orders more arjun tanks have been going for many years.the army wants FRCV program tanks the main contenders are k2 and t14.this latest fiasco by the army is so that when they order to 118 arjun mk1a and they will go with FRCV .there will be no ngmbt.118 order is for shutting DRDO's mouth.

NGMBT is a officially sanctioned program.

 

[Bleh]

Indian army orders more arjun tanks have been going for many years.the army wants FRCV program tanks the main contenders are k2 and t14.this latest fiasco by the army is so that when they order to 118 arjun mk1a and they will go with FRCV .there will be no ngmbt.118 order is for shutting DRDO's mouth.

In this I think Army is right (unlike the weight & infra bullsgit). Stuff asked for in Mark1A was very much necessary to avoid obsolescence-on-arrival, actually it's stupidly dangerous to not upgrade the Mark1s as well.

Rest is all developmental delays & procedure.

 

[Cruise missile]

In this I think Army is right (unlike the weight & infra bullsgit). Stuff asked for in Mark1A was very much necessary to avoid obsolescence-on-arrival, actually it's stupidly dangerous to not upgrade the Mark1s as well.

Rest is al developmental delays & procedure.

I think only optics will be upgraded in mk1.

 

[Marliii]

NGMBT even if it is offically sanctioned I do not think army will go for it.even now general nerevane has said that that FICV would be inducted in 2027.NGMBT even if it fulfills would be tested for 10 years and then will be given small orders of 118 for replacing arjun mk1a if it gets inducted.

 

[silentlurker]

That'll be a lot to write!.. Just google around some history of composites. It is well-established fact.

Short explanation; Composite armour started with spacing between RHA plates... which was soon filled by angled plates, ceramics, ballistic rubber, even sand. So the overall protection is increased compared to same weight of RHA but needs more space. Same thickness of ceramic-plastic-polymer won't have same level of protection as RHA against KE (probably better against HEAT, but you need to optimise both. 500mm of RHA gives ±500mm armour equivalent against both FSAPDS & HEAT. But that value changes differently for both depending on composites materials.)

Where does this 500mm number come from? Is it
the tatget frontal protection level for Arjun?

Also, your general statement that composite armor is always less effective than the same thickness of RHA is questionable. With materials like ceramics and carbides that are all much harder than steel I find this hard to believe. Steel is somehow the exact ideal material for defeating kinetic penetrators and no other composite is more effective on a per thickness basis?

If this is such a well established fact, it should be easy for you to find a source for it.

 

[sorcerer]

Army to move Defence Ministry for 118 Arjun Mk-1A tanks
“The file is currently with the Deputy Chief of Army Staff and will be shortly sent to Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) to put up the case. The case is planned to be fielded before the Defence Procurement Board (DPB) and the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in January 2021,” the source said. Issues with Arjun Mk1 ammunition, spares and repairs had also been resolved and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had set up an Arjun hub in Jaisalmer for spares and support, the source stated.

Army to move Defence Ministry for 118 Arjun Mk-1A tanks

It has 14 major upgrades over the Mk1 variant

www.thehindu.com

 

[Bleh]

Where does this 500mm number come from? Is it the tatget frontal protection level for Arjun?

Also, your general statement that composite armor is always less effective than the same thickness of RHA is questionable. With materials like ceramics and carbides that are all much harder than steel I find this hard to believe. Steel is somehow the exact ideal material for defeating kinetic penetrators and no other composite is more effective on a per thickness basis?

If this is such a well established fact, it should be easy for you to find a source for it.

No a rough visual estimate by looking at the dimensions. Probably less, definitely not more.

Rest is upto you... You'll have to do a bit of research & reading on how various composite armours work (eg: the compression-decompression of Kanchan). There's no single link I can deliver you on a platter.
Where space is available the composite will have empty space space, polymer paddings etc. Noone uses a DU surface-hardened box full of brittle ceramic tiles.

 

[JBH22]

Not that Indian crews ever managed to win... but in this case Tincan-90 chosen to compete broke down. Then the tank that was kept as its emergency replacement quickly broke down as well.

Our clowns made the whole world laugh (at India tho)!

Well it's no Shame to be on the learning curve. If because they lost they withdrew permanently from the competition that's stupidity. Learn from mistakes