Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[NAMICA]

Why even bother purchasing this meagre number of tanks? Won't it create unnecessary logistics problem? They should focus on upgrading the current existence lot rather.

DRDO is working on obsolescence management of Arjun MBT and indigenisation of various assemblies and sub-assemblies, including Commander’s Panoramic Sight (CPS) and Gunner’s Main Sight (GMS) that are under indigenous development.

Army to move Defence Ministry for 118 Arjun Mk-1A tanks

It has 14 major upgrades over the Mk1 variant

www.thehindu.com

 

[Bleh]

Why even bother purchasing this meagre number of tanks? Won't it create unnecessary logistics problem? They should focus on upgrading the current existence lot rather.

No apparently more will come & the NG-MBT itself will have commonality with Arjun, while being 50ton class.

Anyways, some more info;

Once the indigenous CPS and advanced GMS were incorporated, the indigenous content of MBT Arjun Mk-1A would increase from 41% to 54.3% during production.

 

[NAMICA]

No apparently more will come & the NG-MBT itself will have commonality with Arjun, while being 50ton class.

There was news 2 yrs ago that reliance supplied hull and turret of arjun mk 2 weighing 50 tonn it has been confirmed by PKS too. But the weight category sounds fake.

 

[Bleh]

There was news 2 yrs ago that reliance supplied hull and turret of arjun mk 2 weighing 50 tonn it has been confirmed by PKS too. But the weight category sounds fake.

Hull alone can be <50ton. I think it was lost by misinterpretation. To make that whole behemoth that light, you'll have to use Titanium.
But lot of the weight is caused by design deficiency related unnecessary oversize & large blocks of RHA instead of composite layer (especially on mantlet & behind GMS)... So if Arjun Mark2 is going to be an overall turret redesign, then it could come before 60t.

For Mark1A I'm most interested is seeing if the laser designator is placed on ERA tiles as depicted here...

 

[NAMICA]

Hull alone can be <50ton. I think it was lost by misinterpretation. To make that whole behemoth that light, you'll have to use Titanium.
But lot of the weight is caused by design deficiency related unnecessary oversize & large blocks of RHA instead of composite layer (especially on mantlet & behind GMS)... So if Arjun Mark2 is going to be an overall turret redesign, then it could come before 60t.

For Mark1A I'm most interested is seeing if the laser designator is placed on ERA tiles as depicted here... View attachment 71744

Since World War II, because of a reduction in effectiveness against new weapons (mainly shaped charges and improved kinetic energy penetrators), RHA has largely been superseded by composite armour.

Wonder why they didn't replaced it with kanchan armour.

 

[shade]

Why even bother purchasing this meagre number of tanks? Won't it create unnecessary logistics problem? They should focus on upgrading the current existence lot rather.

DRDO walas need to eat janab.
You could say this is this (((quota))) in arms procurement, DRDO or other DPSU products have "reservation".
In specific context of tanks, the rest of the stuff will come in form of more T90s if we're poor, or T14 Armata if GoI is generous.

Tejas, LCH, JVPC carbine, those kalyani-drdo artillery pieces, WhAp etc will never see induction beyond limited numbers, even if they do see induction at all.

You know the reasons why

 

[Bleh]

Wonder why they didn't replaced it with kanchan armour.

What are you talking about?.. They did where they could, but the design limited some parts from being a casing to hold composite tiles & instead had to be made to solid steel.

 

[Hellfire]

@Hellfire is a complete moron I just had fight with him over indigenous content on arjun tank. I said indigenous content can only be increased with further orders in return asshole was giving me example of su 30mki.

Seriously what's wrong with army veterans do they lack common sense or dalali runs deep inside them due to eco system.

Firstly, try abusing me to my face, in person. I shall revel in that.

Secondly, where is the "fight'? Can you post the screenshot of this great fight you had?

Thirdly, are you even aware of the status of core technology projects like those associated with CBRN? We have developed "self sufficiency" since 1991 (as per DRDO) and indeed we get the most basic of equipment like IPE from them - in some numbers. Yet, with every national crisis, we end up importing quite a lot of the same everytime. Why?

Fourthly, larger orders equate with economies of scale and not for higher indigenous content genius. For eons DRDO has been building T-72s and BMPs .. what stopped it from having the technology to develop for these two which could be extrapolated to T-90s and Project MBT or reverse? Were you sleeping when I posted about the Night Vision saga for T-55?

Fifthly, unfortunately for you, I do know what limitations are being faced in the Project MBT of which Arjun is merely an iteration.

Sixthly, neither the GoI nor the MoD, is interested in ensuring the requisite budgetary and infrastructure support required to push in Arjun tanks. You need massive re-investments in being able to use that tank in any worthwhile deep operation into enemy territory.

Seventhly, do read up upon the availability rates of MkIs till a couple of years back due to lack of "indigenous" components forever under development since 2 decades.

 

[Hellfire]

Most of these veteran clowns don't have any understanding of industrial process or manufacturing economics. They are taken seriously due to their real experience in military matters, so they bullshit away on subjects they know nothing of... Same case for almost every one of those.

BTW Why do you feel the need to convince every soul?.. Just leave the data & facts for people to process themselves.

Yeah, apparently only select few have all the gyaan for the bold, I agree.

We "clowns' have no clue about how to run any supply chain or undertake operations management or crash projects.

Some of us merely sailed through IIM sleeping ..... while most of the people sitting on forums have all the gyaan of what how much indigenization has occurred and where the bottleneck remains

 

[Haldilal]

Yeah, apparently only select few have all the gyaan for the bold, I agree.

We "clowns' have no clue about how to run any supply chain or undertake operations management or crash projects.

Some of us merely sailed through IIM sleeping ..... while most of the people sitting on forums have all the gyaan of what how much indigenization has occurred and where the bottleneck remains

Well we keyboard warriors think to much of everything and end up in the mess. Don't knew about the Arjun programme. And Dont knew if ever indigenous tank would be inducted in large numbers till then just wait and watch. And again I am no expert.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Firstly, try abusing me to my face, in person. I shall revel in that.

Secondly, where is the "fight'? Can you post the screenshot of this great fight you had?

Thirdly, are you even aware of the status of core technology projects like those associated with CBRN? We have developed "self sufficiency" since 1991 (as per DRDO) and indeed we get the most basic of equipment like IPE from them - in some numbers. Yet, with every national crisis, we end up importing quite a lot of the same everytime. Why?

Fourthly, larger orders equate with economies of scale and not for higher indigenous content genius. For eons DRDO has been building T-72s and BMPs .. what stopped it from having the technology to develop for these two which could be extrapolated to T-90s and Project MBT or reverse? Were you sleeping when I posted about the Night Vision saga for T-55?

Fifthly, unfortunately for you, I do know what limitations are being faced in the Project MBT of which Arjun is merely an iteration.

Sixthly, neither the GoI nor the MoD, is interested in ensuring the requisite budgetary and infrastructure support required to push in Arjun tanks. You need massive re-investments in being able to use that tank in any worthwhile deep operation into enemy territory.

Seventhly, do read up upon the availability rates of MkIs till a couple of years back due to lack of "indigenous" components forever under development since 2 decades.

We’ve been developing Tejas for 35 years yet 30% of the important components are imported. Our own EW suite was not used and an Israeli one was used. Here people will call me indigenous hater but I hate it, how are we going to produce aircrafts when the engine will be American? Why not buy F-16 with a LM-TATA JV instead when an American engine is used? In both ways a sanction will disable our F-16 and Tejas. Our Arjun has less indigenous maal and less orders. Tejas MK1A deal postponed, our Rustom-2 is fcked. Our Saras is fcked. Our Rifles are not liked by Army due to valid reasons.

 

[FalconZero]

We’ve been developing Tejas for 35 years yet 30% of the important components are imported. Our own EW suite was not used and an Israeli one was used. Here people will call me indigenous hater but I hate it, how are we going to produce aircrafts when the engine will be American? Why not buy F-16 with a LM-TATA JV instead when an American engine is used? In both ways a sanction will disable our F-16 and Tejas. Our Arjun has less indigenous maal and less orders. Tejas MK1A deal postponed, our Rustom-2 is fcked. Our Saras is fcked. Our Rifles are not liked by Army due to valid reasons.

First of all Tejas has 75%+ indigenous contents by parts and 60% by value. Also, here's a pic comparing gripen with tejas:

Look at the percentage of indigenous content, saab invested way more than Tejas in that project and that's the result, yes you can say they are moving forward but you can blame our authorities for giving cold shoulder to Tejas.
Also, please stop this dumbfuckery of dragging Tejas everywhere and comparing apples with oranges, do you know how much indigenous content gripen has? Do you know how much they have invested in gripen in comparison to Tejas project? EW suits and other things can be replaced by indigenous systems, Uttam is already showing great progress, with that much meagre budget no one is going to provide you best in class 100% indigenous system.
Tejas' value comes from the platform itself and the way experience from this has given rise to various subsystems which will be part of later generation aircraft. It's learning curve has provided enough experience for HAL to improve further. It does what it was intended for and does it well.

We have come far in the engine department too but with less budget and support that's what you get, with partnerships hopefully we will improve further. Also, what's your autism with Randi rona? Everywhere if any person even if shrieks you start your randi rona which is not even related to topic in hand, yes Tapas, arjun are the not the best examples of the indiengous systems but did you forget about Uttam, Astra, Rudram, Agni, Pinaka, even brahmos though is JV will get more indigenous components, ATAGs, LUH, LCH, Netra or Tejas itself...Tonbo, MKU, now armasen,etc. They have varying level of indigenous systems but all of them are great platforms which are given cold shoulder by authorities.
Do you guys forget the years of negligence, lack of funds, babushahi, corruption in MoD, army, OFB which has taken place?

Despite that there are some great indigenous systems, so rather than randi rona that why there is lack of indigenous subsystems maybe improve the system, invest in it, then improve on it? Giving out 40% of the money to other countries while having a great platform and continuously improving on it is better than shilling for 100% of phoren maal and then cry why we don't have any credible indigenous systems.

Also, no one is going to blame you for bitching about the system of OFB or HAL but absolutely shamelessly intentionally shilling for other companies, products which are not Indian is pathetic, yes OFB is garbage but what is better? Do nothing or improve on the system in place? We bitch about china but the best thing they do is try to support their indigenous systems, initially they are not 100% perfect but they improve on successive iterations, take any example from Israel to USA same thing, you don't get 100% perfect super duper product in first try...

 

[FalconSlayers]

First of all Tejas has 75%+ indigenous contents by parts and 60% by value. Also, here's a pic comparing gripen with tejas:
View attachment 71774

Look at the percentage of indigenous content, saab invested way more than Tejas in that project and that's the result, yes you can say they are moving forward but you can blame our authorities for giving cold shoulder to Tejas.
Also, please stop this dumbfuckery of dragging Tejas everywhere and comparing apples with oranges, do you know how much indigenous content gripen has? Do you know how much they have invested in gripen in comparison to Tejas project? EW suits and other things can be replaced by indigenous systems, Uttam is already showing great progress, with that much meagre budget no one is going to provide you best in class 100% indigenous system.
Tejas' value comes from the platform itself and the way experience from this has given rise to various subsystems which will be part of later generation aircraft. It's learning curve has provided enough experience for HAL to improve further. It does what it was intended for and does it well.

We have come far in the engine department too but with less budget and support that's what you get, with partnerships hopefully we will improve further. Also, what's your autism with Randi rona? Everywhere if any person even if shrieks you start your randi rona which is not even related to topic in hand, yes Tapas, arjun are the not the best examples of the indiengous systems but did you forget about Uttam, Astra, Rudram, Agni, Pinaka, even brahmos though is JV will get more indigenous components, ATAGs, LUH, LCH, Netra or Tejas itself...Tonbo, MKU, now armasen,etc. They have varying level of indigenous systems but all of them are great platforms which are given cold shoulder by authorities.
Do you guys forget the years of negligence, lack of funds, babushahi, corruption in MoD, army, OFB which has taken place?

Despite that there are some great indigenous systems, so rather than randi rona that why there is lack of indigenous subsystems maybe improve the system, invest in it, then improve on it? Giving out 40% of the money to other countries while having a great platform and continuously improving on it is better than shilling for 100% of phoren maal and then cry why we don't have any credible indigenous systems.

Also, no one is going to blame you for bitching about the system of OFB or HAL but absolutely shamelessly intentionally shilling for other companies, products which are not Indian is pathetic, yes OFB is garbage but what is better? Do nothing or improve on the system in place? We bitch about china but the best thing they do is try to support their indigenous systems, initially they are not 100% perfect but they improve on successive iterations, take any example from Israel to USA same thing, you don't get 100% perfect super duper product in first try...

Gripen is made by a NATO country and they (Sweden) have a lifetime assurance that their aircraft will work well as NATO is like a family. In our case USA can easily sanction and fck our aircrafts if they want to.

 

[FalconSlayers]

First of all Tejas has 75%+ indigenous contents by parts and 60% by value. Also, here's a pic comparing gripen with tejas:
View attachment 71774

Look at the percentage of indigenous content, saab invested way more than Tejas in that project and that's the result, yes you can say they are moving forward but you can blame our authorities for giving cold shoulder to Tejas.
Also, please stop this dumbfuckery of dragging Tejas everywhere and comparing apples with oranges, do you know how much indigenous content gripen has? Do you know how much they have invested in gripen in comparison to Tejas project? EW suits and other things can be replaced by indigenous systems, Uttam is already showing great progress, with that much meagre budget no one is going to provide you best in class 100% indigenous system.
Tejas' value comes from the platform itself and the way experience from this has given rise to various subsystems which will be part of later generation aircraft. It's learning curve has provided enough experience for HAL to improve further. It does what it was intended for and does it well.

We have come far in the engine department too but with less budget and support that's what you get, with partnerships hopefully we will improve further. Also, what's your autism with Randi rona? Everywhere if any person even if shrieks you start your randi rona which is not even related to topic in hand, yes Tapas, arjun are the not the best examples of the indiengous systems but did you forget about Uttam, Astra, Rudram, Agni, Pinaka, even brahmos though is JV will get more indigenous components, ATAGs, LUH, LCH, Netra or Tejas itself...Tonbo, MKU, now armasen,etc. They have varying level of indigenous systems but all of them are great platforms which are given cold shoulder by authorities.
Do you guys forget the years of negligence, lack of funds, babushahi, corruption in MoD, army, OFB which has taken place?

Despite that there are some great indigenous systems, so rather than randi rona that why there is lack of indigenous subsystems maybe improve the system, invest in it, then improve on it? Giving out 40% of the money to other countries while having a great platform and continuously improving on it is better than shilling for 100% of phoren maal and then cry why we don't have any credible indigenous systems.

Also, no one is going to blame you for bitching about the system of OFB or HAL but absolutely shamelessly intentionally shilling for other companies, products which are not Indian is pathetic, yes OFB is garbage but what is better? Do nothing or improve on the system in place? We bitch about china but the best thing they do is try to support their indigenous systems, initially they are not 100% perfect but they improve on successive iterations, take any example from Israel to USA same thing, you don't get 100% perfect super duper product in first try...

Gripen is made by a NATO country and they #Sweden) has a lifetime assurance that their aircraft will work well as NATO is like a family. In our case USA can easily sanction and fck our aircrafts if they want to.

Plus if we have so many good indigenous weapons why isn’t Armed Forces not ordering them? After all this is what one needs to answer. What is the advantage of have so-called indigenous weapons when they are too far from induction? Where is our LCH? Not even orders are given, fck first ATGM orders should be given then MoD will think of ordering LCH. In near future attack helos will become obsolete then MoD will order LCH.

 

[FalconZero]

Plus if we have so many good indigenous weapons why isn’t Armed Forces not ordering them? After all this is what one needs to answer. What is the advantage of have so-called indigenous weapons when they are too far from induction? Where is our LCH? Not even orders are given, fck first ATGM orders should be given then MoD will think of ordering LCH. In near future attack helos will become obsolete then MoD will order LCH.

Maybe that's the question that you should ask dalals at MoD? These are not the problems with those systems rather those who are in charge of inducting them....

 

[Knowitall]

Probably... T-90S displayed the true worth of such people in Biathlons. Now IA is too ashamed to even show it's face there for last 3 years!

you should also read up the whole sabotage saga that played out during Arjun trials. Through repeated sabotages unfair conditions we managed to buy a tank that was not worth the money.

 

[JBH22]

Probably... T-90S displayed the true worth of such people in Biathlons. Now IA is too ashamed to even show it's face there for last 3 years!

Something interesting happened. Does that mean Indian crew were not up to the mark?

 

[Knowitall]

Something interesting happened. Does that mean Indian crew were not up to the mark?

tanks broke down both the one in the race and the spare one.

not very surprising considering how russian equipment has been faring over the years coupled with lack of stringent checks or quality control on the OFB factories which are producing these tanks.

 

[JBH22]

tanks broke down both the one in the race and the spare one.

not very surprising considering how russian equipment has been faring over the years coupled with lacks of stringent checks or quality controls on the OFB factory which are producing these tanks.

No I believe or understand that the tanks were provided by the Russian. T72B3 iirc.
Mishaps do happen tracks breaking etc. You can see similar videos for leclerc or Abrams tanks.

 

[Hellfire]

Well we keyboard warriors think to much of everything and end up in the mess. Don't knew about the Arjun programme. And Dont knew if ever indigenous tank would be inducted in large numbers till then just wait and watch. And again I am no expert.
View attachment 71771

Wars are not fought on mere wishful thinking. Logistics become the rate determinant in any war.

Most of the culverts and small bridges on Indian side are still in need of upgrade (the GoI has only recently realized that infrastructure in border area is of significance for own security).

Imagine having to undertake a bridging operation just to position the tanks into the concentration area of an offensive armoured formation just to build forces to attack and sudden intelligence input which presents thin enemy defenses on a completely different axis of advance which can be breached and exploited and having to switch the axis of the attack at last minute to take advantage of a potential tactical weakness of enemy defences.

Oh the horror of having to undertake bridging operations all over again or going scores of kilometers off track just to cross the irrigation channels on our own side .... to build up for an attack on the new axis - eating time in hours if not days.

Also, in 2010, for the first time Arjun became a tank taking a note of. With shortfalls, no doubt, but it could be looked at. I am all for it in Desert areas going forward, but there needs to be a plan supported by GoI for the same.

You need investment, massive amounts, in upgrading the civil infrastructure on own side in order to allow for rapid positioning of the heavy weight. Additionally, a concentrated effort needs to be made in order to provide for the support infrastructure for the tank itself, which needs input costs that simply can not be sustained by Army exclusively without critically hitting funding in other areas. I

But then, the genius here thinks that getting a tank ready and put at frontline is the end.

Side note: That skeleton is probably representative of most of us, assuredly.

Now for Namica

@NAMICA what is the consistent CAG observation on cost allocation by OFB to items for procurement of items by forces? How is the cost allocation done by OFB or for that matter, any product?

And why is AK-203 to be built in India more costly than if imported directly from Russia?

And why was INSAS more expensive per unit item by a factor of at least 7x as opposed to the AK series that were available for direct purchase from Soviet Bloc countries?

With Al-31s being made by HAL, how much has that translated into successful engines for Tejas? (The analogy was for this)

For Arjun, how are things with the indigenous engine? This, after India does make engines ..... do let me know.